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Mechanist trait logic should be integrated for scourge


Brujeria.7536

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So basicly what they have done with the mech traits should have been what shades are for scourge. Since its release scourge has been nerfed all over again in all possible shapes and forms, its damage, its trait interactions, its cooldowns, its condi application, its support. I think the system they have done with mechanist would be an 100% perfect fit for scourge. Traits that define the F2 - F4 skills like the mech skills do. That way you can balance the skills easier and done have to have skills that do "all things at once" limiting their potency.

 

Imagine the top traits being focused around condi damage and condi application

The middle taits being focused around solo play ( boons, corrupts, mobility)

The bottom traits being focused around support (heal, barrier, condi cleanse)

 

There wouldnt be "base skills"  like shades have now (or very limited ones that have almost no effect without traits) and you can tune this through traits. 

 

I mean after all this balance problems they have  with scourge ( it still does not feel enjoyable - not to play and not to play against for most pople) this seems like THE perfect solution.

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I don't think F2, F3 and F4 are the issue with Scourge, individually those skills aren't any stronger than shouts with a weird range of effect. The issue with scourge is it's F5 and the fact that F2-F3-F4 proc the F1. It would be more effective to simply remove this proc of F1 and rethink the F5.

Now, I'm all for the GM traits changing the F5 in a way that based on the trait you either have damage output, survivability or support instead of all 3 at the same time like it does right now.

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11 hours ago, Brujeria.7536 said:

So basicly what they have done with the mech traits should have been what shades are for scourge. Since its release scourge has been nerfed all over again in all possible shapes and forms, its damage, its trait interactions, its cooldowns, its condi application, its support. I think the system they have done with mechanist would be an 100% perfect fit for scourge. Traits that define the F2 - F4 skills like the mech skills do. That way you can balance the skills easier and done have to have skills that do "all things at once" limiting their potency.

 

Imagine the top traits being focused around condi damage and condi application

The middle taits being focused around solo play ( boons, corrupts, mobility)

The bottom traits being focused around support (heal, barrier, condi cleanse)

 

There wouldnt be "base skills"  like shades have now (or very limited ones that have almost no effect without traits) and you can tune this through traits. 

 

I mean after all this balance problems they have  with scourge ( it still does not feel enjoyable - not to play and not to play against for most pople) this seems like THE perfect solution.

I agree in principle with this parallel themed design as a method to isolate specs for better balance control. I also can't help but think that from a design POV ... it's why most (or all) EoD specs are designed with this sort of parallel theme traits. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between 'problem' specs and the lack of a parallel trait design. 

I also can't argue with your specific trait focus for Scrouge, as it makes sense with how most people think of the theme and it's position with other specs we have. All thumbs up. 

 

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If the barriers scaled more with healing power (such that full viper wasn't putting out 2K barriers with 0 healing power) you wouldn't need to mess about with traits. Desert Empowerment's scaling should be looked at.
F2 (Nefarious Favor) condi clear is nothing particular game breaking, neither is fear on F4 (Garish Pillar) nor is F5 (Desert Shroud) personal barrier since you are giving up an entire Shroud's healthbar.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If the barriers scaled more with healing power (such that full viper wasn't putting out 2K barriers with 0 healing power) you wouldn't need to mess about with traits. Desert Empowerment's scaling should be looked at.
F2 (Nefarious Favor) condi clear is nothing particular game breaking, neither is fear on F4 (Garish Pillar) nor is F5 (Desert Shroud) personal barrier since you are giving up an entire Shroud's healthbar.

If boons scaled in intensity with healing power you wouldn't have support with strong dps... Let's imagine alacrity giving 5% reduced CD recharge at 0 healing power and 55% reduced recharge at 1000 healing power. Let's imagine might with a base of 5 points giving 1 point of power and condi for every 40 point of healing power. Let's imagine quickness giving 5% attack speed at 0 healing power and 55% at 1000 healing power... etc.

Barrier isn't more overpowered than boons.

Desert empowerment 0 healing power:

1 cast -> 1200 barrier

4 cast in 8s -> 4800 barrier (600 hp/s)

5 cast in 16s -> 6000 barrier (375 hp/s)

6 cast in 24s -> 7200 barrier (300 hp/s)

... etc.

Desert empowerment 1000 healing power:

1 cast -> 2000 barrier

4 cast in 8s -> 8000 barrier (1k hp/s)

5 cast in 16s -> 10000 barrier (625 hp/s)

6 cast in 24s -> 12000 barrier (500 hp/s)

... etc.

There are some professions out there that can do that much by just auto-attacking. As for sand cascade, giving 2.4k barrier every 10s at 0 healing power isn't an amount of hp/s that you don't find on other professions either. Which drive me to the conclusion that barrier or it's interaction with healing power isn't the issue and that tweaking with it won't lead to anything.

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6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

If boons scaled in intensity with healing power you wouldn't have support with strong dps... Let's imagine alacrity giving 5% reduced CD recharge at 0 healing power and 55% reduced recharge at 1000 healing power. Let's imagine might with a base of 5 points giving 1 point of power and condi for every 40 point of healing power. Let's imagine quickness giving 5% attack speed at 0 healing power and 55% at 1000 healing power... etc.

Barrier isn't more overpowered than boons.

Desert empowerment 0 healing power:

1 cast -> 1200 barrier

4 cast in 8s -> 4800 barrier (600 hp/s)

5 cast in 16s -> 6000 barrier (375 hp/s)

6 cast in 24s -> 7200 barrier (300 hp/s)

... etc.

Desert empowerment 1000 healing power:

1 cast -> 2000 barrier

4 cast in 8s -> 8000 barrier (1k hp/s)

5 cast in 16s -> 10000 barrier (625 hp/s)

6 cast in 24s -> 12000 barrier (500 hp/s)

... etc.

There are some professions out there that can do that much by just auto-attacking. As for sand cascade, giving 2.4k barrier every 10s at 0 healing power isn't an amount of hp/s that you don't find on other professions either. Which drive me to the conclusion that barrier or it's interaction with healing power isn't the issue and that tweaking with it won't lead to anything.


Barrier ignores agony in fractals which reduces healing by 70%. In addition, it doesn't seem like you account for Sinister Shroud (-15% cooldown) or alacrity. With Sinister Shroud it is every 6.75s not 8s for Desert Empowerment as well as 6.75s for Sand Cascade.

If you look at guardians or tempests you need an entire traitline for it (virtues/honor or water); heralds don't do nearly as much damage and don't have burst from Citadel Bombardment. If you autoattack on staff elementalist , staff or revenant, or mace on guardian you neuter your damage.

Having boons scale intensity with healing power wouldn't work at all. You'd need to have the server check the state of the healing power on application and refresh of boons which is far too much added load for Amazon EC2 instances that the game is computed on , keep in mind herald refreshes boons every 3s. It already tanks in performance in large meta events and WVW.

edit: P.S. we already have boons scaling in intensity: see might

Edited by Infusion.7149
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Removing self-Shade and possibly adding a small cast time to F2-F3 (in place of the trigger delay) would be a good start for correcting this specializations course and allowing for buffs and alternations in the future. I don't think traits are the culprit here.

Edited by Rym.1469
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@Infusion.7149

I think the issue is your mindset. You think that barrier is OP while it's not more OP than anything else. You're putting out vain argument because you see barrier as something different from boons while boons do similar things than barrier. Do you complain because -70% healing don't affect aegis full block of a strike? Do you complain because protection isn't down to 8% when you're affected by agony? You don't. Barrier is a 5s boon that help you soak damage, it's the same thing as aegis and protection, done a bit differently and scaling on healing power (like aegis it prevent incoming damage but like protection on contrary to aegis, it doesn't prevent the CC, condition and other things that could be attached to the strike damage).

I've use this example of boons to make you think about what you're asking for barrier. Anet won't change the way boons work because it would be a terrible idea, just like making barrier more dependant on scaling would be a terrible idea. Over a minute the barrier output isn't higher than some other professions healing output whether it's with CD reduction or not. Beyond the need of "taking a whole traitline for healing" an elementalist can just blow 2 water field on staff and have a few blasts happen in them to outheal the scourge barrier output, apply regen, cleanse and, if he want to be thorough, use it's AA (even it's elite golem can output ridiculous amount of heal). You won't find elementalist that do that because they don't want to, just like you weren't seeing necromancers using epidemic for the first half of the game life because they were still hoping for a power dps build.

Point is that you won't fix the issue you got with scourge by making it's barrier output scale more on healing, you could even create situations that end up worse than what you hope to fix. In fact, sPvP already prove my point since desert empowerment grant 30% less barrier with a count recharge of 15s instead of 8s there and yet people still complain.

Edited by Dadnir.5038
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19 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

@Infusion.7149

I think the issue is your mindset. You think that barrier is OP while it's not more OP than anything else. You're putting out vain argument because you see barrier as something different from boons while boons do similar things than barrier. Do you complain because -70% healing don't affect aegis full block of a strike? Do you complain because protection isn't down to 8% when you're affected by agony? You don't. Barrier is a 5s boon that help you soak damage, it's the same thing as aegis and protection, done a bit differently and scaling on healing power (like aegis it prevent incoming damage but like protection on contrary to aegis, it doesn't prevent the CC, condition and other things that could be attached to the strike damage).

I've use this example of boons to make you think about what you're asking for barrier. Anet won't change the way boons work because it would be a terrible idea, just like making barrier more dependant on scaling would be a terrible idea. Over a minute the barrier output isn't higher than some other professions healing output whether it's with CD reduction or not. Beyond the need of "taking a whole traitline for healing" an elementalist can just blow 2 water field on staff and have a few blasts happen in them to outheal the scourge barrier output, apply regen, cleanse and, if he want to be thorough, use it's AA (even it's elite golem can output ridiculous amount of heal). You won't find elementalist that do that because they don't want to, just like you weren't seeing necromancers using epidemic for the first half of the game life because they were still hoping for a power dps build.

Point is that you won't fix the issue you got with scourge by making it's barrier output scale more on healing, you could even create situations that end up worse than what you hope to fix. In fact, sPvP already prove my point since desert empowerment grant 30% less barrier with a count recharge of 15s instead of 8s there and yet people still complain.

If you use water on staff ele
A. You're using a staff
B. You're on water attunement = no damage

The barriers being put out on scourges are part of the DPS rotation.

If barriers scaled with healing power then it would be far less effect for free. You are taking desert empowerment regardless because the top damage variants aren't running punishment skills.

Aegis needs nerf on mantra of solace but that's a separate topic. CFB gets it for free as well. You're not getting protection for free on FB, going into tome of courage = no damage just like going into water on elementalist. Protection only comes without a cost on power alac ren (which has far less damage than a DPS) because you don't run shortbow on power variants , condi alac gives up shortbow's bleeding damage mod /piercing.

edit: see my breakdown before the Abrasive Grit change

 

Edited by Infusion.7149
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On 11/1/2021 at 5:58 PM, Rym.1469 said:

Removing self-Shade and possibly adding a small cast time to F2-F3 (in place of the trigger delay) would be a good start for correcting this specializations course and allowing for buffs and alternations in the future. I don't think traits are the culprit here.

I think youve forgotten that Anet already tried that once. Removing self shade and self shatter from mesmers.     It did not go well, and they ended reinstating it.

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3 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

I think youve forgotten that Anet already tried that once. Removing self shade and self shatter from mesmers.     It did not go well, and they ended reinstating it.

I know about it, I'm still asking for it. Once self shade is gone, we can actually start getting some buffs in appropriate places.

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2 hours ago, Rym.1469 said:

I know about it, I'm still asking for it. Once self shade is gone, we can actually start getting some buffs in appropriate places.

You ask the devs to do the same mistake they had to ultimately correct while expecting "buffs in appropriate places"?

First, devs going back on a tweak is extremly rare and the fact they've gone back on the "no self shade" tweak is a testament on how bad this change was.

Second, you'd have to define the "appropriate places" for those buffs to even start to be convincing.

Third, you shouldn't expect anything from the devs, past experience proved that when they want to make thing "better" it tend to end up becoming worse (a good example being the necromancer's warhorn and focus).

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3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You ask the devs to do the same mistake they had to ultimately correct while expecting "buffs in appropriate places"?

First, devs going back on a tweak is extremly rare and the fact they've gone back on the "no self shade" tweak is a testament on how bad this change was.

Second, you'd have to define the "appropriate places" for those buffs to even start to be convincing.

Third, you shouldn't expect anything from the devs, past experience proved that when they want to make thing "better" it tend to end up becoming worse (a good example being the necromancer's warhorn and focus).

Yes, they can do it with first EoD balance patch. Scourge has inadequate skill floor for it's effectiveness and is too unhealthy for the game to stay as it is and will remain a tumor unless changed. It will need cuts before applying buffs and I do think cutting the self shade is the best one - the initial removal was just too early and lacked follow up, so ArenaNet backed off.

With EoD launched, there is an opportunity to just cut the condition side of it and focus purely on support, perhaps changing the mechanics further as well and replacing condition talents.

Third, I've played every iteration of Necromancer and can easily say that right now as a baseline class is the strongest and most complete it's ever been. Some changes sucked and if you know me you know I was vocal about what I did not like and tried to compromise for best results, but comparing the traits and overall situation the class is in, even discarding Scourge entirely, blows the past out of the water.

 

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12 hours ago, Rym.1469 said:

Yes, they can do it with first EoD balance patch. Scourge has inadequate skill floor for it's effectiveness and is too unhealthy for the game to stay as it is and will remain a tumor unless changed. It will need cuts before applying buffs and I do think cutting the self shade is the best one - the initial removal was just too early and lacked follow up, so ArenaNet backed off.

With EoD launched, there is an opportunity to just cut the condition side of it and focus purely on support, perhaps changing the mechanics further as well and replacing condition talents.

Third, I've played every iteration of Necromancer and can easily say that right now as a baseline class is the strongest and most complete it's ever been. Some changes sucked and if you know me you know I was vocal about what I did not like and tried to compromise for best results, but comparing the traits and overall situation the class is in, even discarding Scourge entirely, blows the past out of the water.

I can understand why you want to remove self shade, the issue is that you neglect the fact that it's a tried idea that prove to be the wrong solution.

The Scourge issue isn't the self shade and never was. F2-F3-F4, with or without self shade are merely at the level of reaper's shouts and they are not an issue in any way.

The scourge's issue is Fourfold:

  1. Manifest sand shade proc on F Key use and as such proc every single Shrd#1 traits.
  2. F2-F3-F4 don't have a cast time.
  3. Desert shroud design isn't like a "shout" as it last for a few seconds and tic every second transforming the scourge into a deathzone. (and that is the main issue of the scourge).
  4. Barrier design is problematic, it's main issue being that barrier stack on top of barrier.

Fix those 4 points and you fix scourge, nothing more, nothing less. Remove self-shade and you break scourge as past experience already proved.

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