Can we get an official DPS Meter?

[Asgaeroth.6427]

Official DPS meter would be a disaster. How else are people going to distribute their keyloggers if no one downloads their "DPS meter" that for no apparent reason requires a Windows 95 networking redistributable?

[ShadowCatz.8437]

7 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Some people require those in their groups in order to get competent players and have quick runs. The majority of players don’t even break 10K DPS which tends to cause content to drag on longer than necessary. I don’t believe that DRMs have those requirements as those who would even require them are better off doing them solo. 

From my own experience in some DRMs it more about players don't understand mechanic like lighting fires (to stop area damge from chill) during boss fight and having some kind of cleanse and stunbreaks when needed in other fights. It is not needed to have very high damage, just that group work together as much as possible instead of starting a blaming game.

In general most runs gets easier the more time players have done the same content and that is probably the larger problem in every MMOs as those people (A) start to see pattern on fights (B) start to having goals - farming for certain things or repeating stuff leads to increased wish to stream line time doing the same thing over and over again which in turn make it harder for unexperienced players to keep up.

Any tool to messure DPS (and why is this discussion ONLY focus on DPS with ArcDPS, leaving out heals and other elements that also have an impact in all fights and game modes?) will not change this. It is part of how both ANet structure content (reward system) and how player community move expectation in certain direction. Just look at all talk about Meta here and there.

[mythical.6315]

58 minutes ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

From my own experience in some DRMs it more about players don't understand mechanic like lighting fires (to stop area damge from chill) during boss fight and having some kind of cleanse and stunbreaks when needed in other fights. It is not needed to have very high damage, just that group work together as much as possible instead of starting a blaming game.

In general most runs gets easier the more time players have done the same content and that is probably the larger problem in every MMOs as those people (A) start to see pattern on fights (B) start to having goals - farming for certain things or repeating stuff leads to increased wish to stream line time doing the same thing over and over again which in turn make it harder for unexperienced players to keep up.

Any tool to messure DPS (and why is this discussion ONLY focus on DPS with ArcDPS, leaving out heals and other elements that also have an impact in all fights and game modes?) will not change this. It is part of how both ANet structure content (reward system) and how player community move expectation in certain direction. Just look at all talk about Meta here and there.

My post wasn’t really about DRMs as those can be done quicker solo and I don’t believe anyone puts LI/KP requirements for their LFG other than to meme. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

36 minutes ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

From my own experience in some DRMs it more about players don't understand mechanic like lighting fires (to stop area damge from chill) during boss fight and having some kind of cleanse and stunbreaks when needed in other fights. It is not needed to have very high damage, just that group work together as much as possible instead of starting a blaming game.

In general most runs gets easier the more time players have done the same content and that is probably the larger problem in every MMOs as those people (A) start to see pattern on fights (B) start to having goals - farming for certain things or repeating stuff leads to increased wish to stream line time doing the same thing over and over again which in turn make it harder for unexperienced players to keep up.

Any tool to messure DPS (and why is this discussion ONLY focus on DPS with ArcDPS, leaving out heals and other elements that also have an impact in all fights and game modes?) will not change this. It is part of how both ANet structure content (reward system) and how player community move expectation in certain direction. Just look at all talk about Meta here and there.

That's a tough sell.  I'm with you where you say experience matters, but you lost me at DPS meters don't change anything.  They don't change anything if you don't use them.  For everyone else they provide better information.  Better information allows you to benefit more from your experiences and learn faster.

[ShadowCatz.8437]

2 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That's a tough sell.  I'm with you where you say experience matters, but you lost me at DPS meters don't change anything.  They don't change anything if you don't use them.  For everyone else they provide better information.  Better information allows you to benefit more from your experiences and learn faster.

You are taking that part about "don't change anything" out of its context. If you read next sentence in my post you will see that I am talking about how this game have a certain structure from rewards (which motivates certain type of behaviour - the very reson why people are doing things in game and how going about to get to that goal) in combination of community (as everything that people do will be effected of how they compare themselves with other and why there are demands in content that other should or need to percieve as best performance and efficiency through use of gear, rotation, skills etc in which is often called Meta in this game). ArcDPS only present data from in game (most of this can already be seen when one make use of Chat to log Combat in a tab) in way  that is more easy to read or analyze.

What we are discussing here in this thead are after all how tools for DPS messurement are being used across different groups to exclude each other from doing that same content with only base in DPS. I wanted to point out that DPS is only a very small part of what ArcDPS can do as it also show numbers for heals, boon uptime and condition uptime among other which is also as important for the end result. Not al of those numbers are exact numbers (as heals as an example have limited information present in API; which ArcDPS dev mention as cuation to interpret from those numbers) and should not be taken to show the real thing going on in game as there are limitation for how those numbers are being registered in game (API).

A lot of problem here in this MMO are how people want to simplify or reduce everything and DPS tools that messure damage will not change how people always find new ways to exclude each other from participating in the same group as themselve or spend time to learn how to work together. A large part of this thread is about how ArcDPS can be seen as the very reason to why people feel they are being locked out of content, but the truth are that people will always find new way to distinguish themselves and in the same process create peers of likeminded people that have the same expection and to a large degree, same goals.
 

[HotDelirium.7984]

22 hours ago, Electra.7530 said:

I am in one of those conundrums where I have NEVER once succeeded in a party to complete a raid or kill even the first boss because, one, I'm not knowledgeable and experienced enough to take up a spot in a raid party.  And two, I'm not sure my DPS is acceptable.

Good or bad, that's the reality for me.  I suspect others as well.   As I have discovered, hard end game content is for elite players that have the skill and DPS to do it.  Survival of the fittest. 

DPS output is not all just about builds.  It's about play style and skill.  Some of us do fall through the cracks.  I guess I'd have to say that it's not fair for me to end up in a raid party that has to carry me.  So, while I loathe the idea of DPS meters in game, I understand the "rules of the jungle."

Skill rotation comes after build. You have to try to do your skills in a certain order that maximizes their DPS and usefulness. It's only talked about somewhat but in many cases don't "save skills." Autoattacking only, might be good for sharing the target for dailies but in fractals, strikes and I assume raids- maximum effort in your skill rotation continuously is desired and expected.

[HotDelirium.7984]

19 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

The sad reality is there are builds that almost pretty much just Auto Attack and do more than enough DPS, by far, to hit every "DPS check" in- and beat pretty much any Raid encounter - but a great deal of GW2 players simply have no idea about those builds or how incredibly poor their performance ingame is to even think about sensible build choices or seeking out resources that can help them improve. 

 

You really, really don't have to be an "elite player" for content such as Raids, nor do you have to play them in a cut throat "survival of the fittest" environment. 

You can genuinely join together with a pretty casual and fun group, and given the right builds, willingness to learn the fights and the right mentality that wiping doesn't have to mean failure but that it's part of progression and learning - clear that content just fine while having a blast. 

 

And I think that's the frustration some people with DPS meter's feel, when they see players joining their group as DPS and then do 3k DPS and then get defensive and hostile when after a few wipes someone points out that they can't beat the content with that kind of DPS, convinced of themselves they are doing fine. You can't help but think, if you just were aware of your performance you could literally just find and pick up a build auto attacking and do >8 times DPS with no effort at all and we'd be fine. 

 

That's really the only reason I'd maybe want DPS meters in the hands of more players - for them to actually see "oh wow, I'm actually just doing 3k DPS, yet there are people here pulling 30k+, maybe there is a little I could change to at least improve somewhat and have a better time myself with the game, as well as for the benefit of everyone I play with" and getting inspired by that. 

It doesn't come from a place to make anyone feel bad about their performance or to lord any numbers over anyone else (and I'm not sure why some people always inscribe those intentions to DPS meter users)  - just that it could put the community in a better place by providing some more self awareness and discovering a great learning tool for themselves. 

 

The whole reason why we need KP and gatekeeping in GW2 is because you can't trust random players to perform reasonably by any margin. No one wants to gamble on a 3k DPS player joining or a >35k DPS player joining when looking for a DPS, so if the content demands some basic competency, you have to gate the group to increase your chances of getting a player closer to the latter. 

If more players were aware of the giant gap in performance between players and worked just a tiny bit on improvement (be it just changing their build for vast DPS gains, often for less effort), gating would become drastically less necessary, and this pointless and tiring chasm between "casual" and "hardcore" players in this community smaller.

 

*That's not to say everyone has to improve and be good at the game, but when playing in more demanding group content at least imo every participating player has a responsibility towards the other's in the group to not entirely waste their time, and it's unfortunate that while GW2 makes it incredibly easy to reach a more than enough baseline of performance, many are simply not aware that they are literally doing 1/10 of the DPS of others, crippling themselves and any group their join for no reason, and creating hostilities and a gatekeeping environment in the process.

I had heard other MMO's were doing a bot mode where its just you and 9 bots fighting a boss. Imagine that as a business model lol we wouldn't even need eachother at that point xD

[Xanadrine.4352]

I dont think it will ever happen, even the big mmos allow addons like meters they dont have ingame ones. What i would like is the ability to add more addons and a customizable UI that we can move the elements where we need them to look and feel better when playing. Also resizing them. 

[fatihso.7258]

When Anet introduced their inferior version of templates(loadouts) they asked Delta to stop developing Arc Buildtemplates which was superior and still is. 

Now if they ever try to get their hands on a in game DPS meter. They will boot Arc itself this time and we will lose all the extra functionality that comes with it which were already highlighted in previous comments.

So I will never and ever want Anet to implement any DPS meter.

[Strixxe.2019]

Honestly im surprised that anet even allows such addons to begin with, given the fact that they invoke toxicity among players... 

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, KrivukasLT.3507 said:

Honestly im surprised that anet even allows such addons to begin with, given the fact that they invoke toxicity among players... 

 

This existed before DPS meters. 

[Linken.6345]

3 hours ago, KrivukasLT.3507 said:

Honestly im surprised that anet even allows such addons to begin with, given the fact that they invoke toxicity among players... 

Guess you were not here for the no dps meter, 10k ap no necro no ranger dungeon days?

[Dawdler.8521]

I thought we already had an official dps meter in the LA raid lobby to test and measure builds. Or have they deleted that?

For the actual mobs and bosses, if a dps meter tell you something useful Anet has made it either too dumb or too easy.

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Guess you were not here for the no dps meter, 10k ap no necro no ranger dungeon days?

Ah, the good old times.

Tbh, with the amount of clueless assumptions about DPS meters, I'm almost wishing we would go back to those days.

That way I wouldn't have to justify kicking someone due to bad performance (or no performance at all). I can just make kitten up and kick them. First to go are Braham cosplay lookalikes. 😬

1. Dps meters don't add toxicity. They provide metrics and data. Players use that data

2. Toxicity and elitism in relation to wanting smooth or fast loot have existed and will exist no matter if there is a dps meter or not.

3. The area in which dps meters like arc provide data is related to smooth clears and thus faster loot ( though not limited to). As such the elitism/toxicity which already existed is now shifted onto the data available (which is a step up, because at least it's not baseless or assumption based).

4. Don't mix up 1 and 2.

 

Edit:

Small thought experiment: imagine you are playing a class which is "known" for not performing ideally at a given role. Now you join a group and are encouraged to change classes. You convince the group to let you stay in your class assuring them you can perform with the best of them. How would you prove your claim? 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[medivh.4725]

Yes. Won't like to install 3rd party apps where you constantly are reinstalling them after every update. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 10/31/2021 at 2:01 PM, Ashgar.3024 said:

I mean make it an optional opt-in if needed, yes that won't change anything in Raid as ofc Commanders will ask you to opt-in, but that would solve the issue of people not wanting to get shamed for AFKing in Meta Events or whatever.

Umm, how are people going to be shamed when they're not even there?

Also using ArcDPS to shame people (especially in open world)  is a fundamental misuse of the tool. Worry about your own numbers first. The game doesn't revolve around instanced pve at all.

Now, enhanced plugin support would be nice, though. But eh things aren't too bad as they are.

Edited November 4, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, medivh.4725 said:

Yes. Won't like to install 3rd party apps where you constantly are reinstalling them after every update. 

“Constantly” is a bit of an exaggeration as it was pretty much every few months.  This normally fell with balance updates and content updates like Living Story. I doubt that you’d find anyone who says we’re constantly getting either of those. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by mythical.6315

[RoastedBloop.9817]

As someone who only used arc dps once. It's a cool thing to have, however it's weird for folks to ask for anet to develop their own, when they already have one: combat log. Granted it isn't the best and it's awful to use, however they can improve or expand on it further. Have the option to just measure your own dps, like how arc presents it. To toggle it on and off, just use the tick boxes like you already do currently with any other function with the chat box. Arc reads the info off the client, for anet to implement this in to the combat log shouldn't be too much of an ask.  

 

Just my two cent.

[Asum.4960]

11 hours ago, CalamityO.2890 said:

As someone who only used arc dps once. It's a cool thing to have, however it's weird for folks to ask for anet to develop their own, when they already have one: combat log. Granted it isn't the best and it's awful to use, however they can improve or expand on it further. Have the option to just measure your own dps, like how arc presents it. To toggle it on and off, just use the tick boxes like you already do currently with any other function with the chat box. Arc reads the info off the client, for anet to implement this in to the combat log shouldn't be too much of an ask.  

 

Just my two cent.

 

The problem with just seeing your own DPS is that DPS is incredibly content/context reliant. 

 

In some encounters you got clear burst phases, often with special damage buffs, and can reach numbers of >60k DPS for that portion (sometimes even much more). 

Other fights include a lot of movement or downtime/phasing, and hitting 20k (and sometimes even lower) in those practical scenarios would be really good. 

Only in more "golem like" encounters one can reference to benchmarks.

 

If you don't have the context of team performance at hand to compare yourself against, it's pretty hard to tell if you are doing fantastic, great or actually have significant room for self-improvement at any one encounter, even if you know your own numbers. 

 

That's the primary reason for the display of the DPS of others, not to police their DPS, but to contextualize your own. 

Being able to tell if someone else is just completely not performing and screwing/exploiting the rest of group really is just a small sideperk of that, which often you can tell from how they play regardless. 

 

So while drastically reducing the functionality, it would do little to curb perceived or real toxicity, if not increase it again as players return to jusding others based on feeling and class biases, rather than actual performance. 

This as addition alongside with Arc for those who want, could be good though, yea.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Asum.4960

[MarkoGold.7126]

On 10/31/2021 at 10:01 PM, Ashgar.3024 said:

First note, i'm not a huge fan of addons, at all. Getting away from them was a huge selling point of this game for me. Being heavily encouraged to have a fricking command center and 8+ weakauras per boss etc. etc. in WoW is one of the many reasons i quit it permanently.

 

That said, DPS meter will always be wanted by high end PvE players in any game, in the vast majority of the cases for the right reasons. Right now the only option for that in this game is an awkward 3rd party program who consistently crashes the game. At this point i'm stuck reinstalling it only during my raid night cause otherwise it literally loses me games in PvP. Its annoying. No slight to the developper of the tool, i'm sure its incredibly hard to program and best case Anet could give him a contract to actually implement it officially.

 

But right now i'm stuck in a situation where i'm stuck running a tool i'm more or less required to use to do a part of the game i enjoy, but that tool breaks my game. 

 

I mean make it an optional opt-in if needed, yes that won't change anything in Raid as ofc Commanders will ask you to opt-in, but that would solve the issue of people not wanting to get shamed for AFKing in Meta Events or whatever.

i dont think they will ever do that arc dps is in the grey zone the other dps meter they banned , also arc has boon charts mechanic charts hell with the extension now it can check kp of players in other instances which is supper userfull if anything that should be in the core game by default and not have a third party website check kp.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I'd like one so as not to violate the 'no third party' rule.  I realize ArcDPS is technically 'safe', but if they ever change that stance on that, so many people are liable to be banned.  

Also, I'd like one because people that are taking risks by using Arc already know everyone's DPS anyway--so not having a meter of my own puts me at a disadvantage in that regard.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[kharmin.7683]

5 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Also, I'd like one because people that are taking risks by using Arc already know everyone's DPS anyway--so not having a meter of my own puts me at a disadvantage in that regard.

This is one of the arguments in earlier threads. People wanted meters, but only to self-check their own DPS and not make it available to others (or an Opt-In option to do so).

[Khisanth.2948]

7 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I'd like one so as not to violate the 'no third party' rule.  I realize ArcDPS is technically 'safe', but if they ever change that stance on that, so many people are liable to be banned.  

Also, I'd like one because people that are taking risks by using Arc already know everyone's DPS anyway--so not having a meter of my own puts me at a disadvantage in that regard.

that goes into the previously mentioned concern about an official one being worse than the unofficial one

arc does more than just DPS even if we just stick to the DPS related things, for example it also tells you if you are cancelling your skills which can be a good thing or bad thing depending on build and rotation. If the official one only does DPS then a feature is being lost at least for people who want to optimize to that degree.

arc's logs together with the various tools around also allows people to share/analyze results like "I am using this build but my damage is no where near the benchmark. What am I doing wrong?"

uptime on boons and buffs are also important factors. The answer to "my DPS is bad, how do I improve it?" depends a lot on that. If your own actions are good but the boons and buff uptimes are bad then one option for improvement is find better teammates but if the boons and buffs are fine but your rotation execution is poor then time to "git gud". That is also oversimplifying things since there are other factors involved depending on the encounter. Looking solely at your own DPS gives a misleading answer.

replicating arc is more than just displaying DPS

[Gotejjeken.1267]

9 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

that goes into the previously mentioned concern about an official one being worse than the unofficial one

arc does more than just DPS even if we just stick to the DPS related things, for example it also tells you if you are cancelling your skills which can be a good thing or bad thing depending on build and rotation. If the official one only does DPS then a feature is being lost at least for people who want to optimize to that degree.

arc's logs together with the various tools around also allows people to share/analyze results like "I am using this build but my damage is no where near the benchmark. What am I doing wrong?"

uptime on boons and buffs are also important factors. The answer to "my DPS is bad, how do I improve it?" depends a lot on that. If your own actions are good but the boons and buff uptimes are bad then one option for improvement is find better teammates but if the boons and buffs are fine but your rotation execution is poor then time to "git gud". That is also oversimplifying things since there are other factors involved depending on the encounter. Looking solely at your own DPS gives a misleading answer.

replicating arc is more than just displaying DPS

 

That's great, but at least the official one won't come in a 'grey area' that may be a bannable offense.  I'd personally take something official over a third party app interfacing any day, regardless of feature set.  

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

This is one of the arguments in earlier threads. People wanted meters, but only to self-check their own DPS and not make it available to others (or an Opt-In option to do so).

 

I don't really care if others see my damage, I'm just annoyed I myself can't see my (overall) damage without taking the risk of using a third party app.