Can we get an official DPS Meter?

[dace.8019]

If ArenaNet introduce a DPS meter, I hope (and sort of expect) them to do it to the standard they elevated mounts.

Besides various damage metrics, I'd want to see:

• Healing metrics
• Damage blocked
• Boons
• Conditions
• CC metrics
• De/Buff metrics

 

This would also get around the potentially thorny issue of a DPS meter diminishing the other roles in combat in the mindset of the player.

Edited November 6, 2021 by dace.8019

[Tukaram.8256]

~Double Post~ 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Tukaram.8256

[Tukaram.8256]

On 11/2/2021 at 10:03 PM, HotDelirium.7984 said:

I had heard other MMO's were doing a bot mode where its just you and 9 bots fighting a boss. Imagine that as a business model lol we wouldn't even need eachother at that point xD

One of the great things I miss about GW was the heroes and Mercenaries.  I wish we had them in GW2.  

 

 

On 11/1/2021 at 9:35 PM, Randulf.7614 said:

Is it highly popular though? I suspect only a tiny fraction of the population use it. 

I never heard of it except on this forum.  This forum is a small minority of players.  So, I suspect it is a pretty small fraction that use it.

[kharmin.7683]

27 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

One of the great things I miss about GW was the heroes and Mercenaries.  I wish we had them in GW2.  

 

 

 

GW2 is a completely different type of game.  GW1 maps were instanced content, not true open world.

[frareanselm.1925]

On 11/1/2021 at 1:57 PM, Aphandra.9672 said:

I kinda like the innocent nature of the game, going by the feel, is it going well, or not so much.
It also allows classes to be balanced differently from each having X dps. Was the downfall of WoW versatility as well. Some classes may rely on sustain, CC, kiting, god forbid supporting conditions, while others on raw burst. Of course, in a raid, throughput is the king, queen and prince together.

Then again, I sometimes wish to know where I am on the scale between good and bad.
So that when it matters, I know, how. Back in 2009 I used target dummies to try and improve my rotation, stats, etc.

To be specific, I couldn't do the last fight of Season 2. Was I bad? My gear? Both, neither, is it supposed to be social? I can never know. I can just argue either way given the abundance of mechanics.

DPS meter is necessary to improve your performance in raids. The "feel" or impression is not a reliable indicative about if you're playing good or you're a total disaster. 

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

GW2 is a completely different type of game.  GW1 maps were instanced content, not true open world.

But GW2 also has instanced content, so Arenanet could set up a heroes-like system that is restricted to that instanced content.

[Alaia Skyhawk.5064]

Honestly, if they were going to put anything in the game then this would probably serve the purpose. He was in GW1 in the Battle Isles. Keep the /bow emote ready, and you could use a stopwatch to time yourself and end your DPS after X number of seconds and he would give you a rundown. Put him in the GH as something you can enable/disable in the arena, or even stick him in the PvP lobby.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Master_of_Damage

[Raknar.4735]

1 hour ago, Alaia Skyhawk.5064 said:

Honestly, if they were going to put anything in the game then this would probably serve the purpose. He was in GW1 in the Battle Isles. Keep the /bow emote ready, and you could use a stopwatch to time yourself and end your DPS after X number of seconds and he would give you a rundown. Put him in the GH as something you can enable/disable in the arena, or even stick him in the PvP lobby.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Master_of_Damage

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special_Forces_Training_Area

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

On 11/2/2021 at 12:09 AM, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

What we are discussing here in this thead are after all how tools for DPS messurement are being used across different groups to exclude each other from doing that same content with only base in DPS. I wanted to point out that DPS is only a very small part of what ArcDPS can do as it also show numbers for heals, boon uptime and condition uptime among other which is also as important for the end result. Not al of those numbers are exact numbers (as heals as an example have limited information present in API; which ArcDPS dev mention as cuation to interpret from those numbers) and should not be taken to show the real thing going on in game as there are limitation for how those numbers are being registered in game (API).

My own two bits worth here, and honestly if you give me a quarter (USD) you have over paid. I think this hits a key point that I too had notices was lacking in the conversation up to at least the point this was posted. I haven't read all (currently) 4 pages yet. 

Healing & boon uptime are also very important elements to track. There are also the non-boon buffs (superspeed, one wolf pack, etc) that impact game play in non-trivial ways that are helpful to track and already found in ARCDPS. 

If this were to go forward as an in-house developed tool, it really would need to have many or even all of the features of ARCDPS in order to truly replace it. Someone else has already mentioned but I think it is worth repeating, that if ANet were to build this in game and reduce or gem gate functionality the way they did with build templates, the game would be worse off for it. Possibly the best option might be for them to either hire or contract the ARCDPS developer and adjust the existing product to work in the game rather than just overlay.  

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

5 hours ago, dace.8019 said:

If ArenaNet introduce a DPS meter, I hope (and sort of expect) them to do it to the standard they elevated mounts.

Besides various damage metrics, I'd want to see:

• Healing metrics
• Damage blocked
• Boons
• Conditions
• CC metrics
• De/Buff metrics

 

This would also get around the potentially thorny issue of a DPS meter diminishing the other roles in combat in the mindset of the player.

See, I guess I SHOULD read to the end before replying. Someone else said the same thing as me only much better and more succinctly. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I don't mind DPS meters but make sure you report everything including HPS, revives, etc too. Like PvP does

 

The game's not just about DPS. Its not 2014 "lfg full zerk warr,guard only" anymore.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Linken.6345]

23 hours ago, MarkoGold.7126 said:

i dont think they will ever do that arc dps is in the grey zone the other dps meter they banned , also arc has boon charts mechanic charts hell with the extension now it can check kp of players in other instances which is supper userfull if anything that should be in the core game by default and not have a third party website check kp.

Yea why that dps meter was banned was because you could inspect other peoples gear in every area of the game.

Creater refused to take that advantage out.

[ShadowCatz.8437]

33 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yea why that dps meter was banned was because you could inspect other peoples gear in every area of the game.

Creater refused to take that advantage out.

Did that discounted DPS meter show all gear that where equipped on other players or only damage numbers and Kill Proof? I believe I read something for some time ago how some players demanded screen shots of other players equipped gear to even be allowed to join in RAIDs, but I can be wrong.

[Linken.6345]

47 minutes ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

Did that discounted DPS meter show all gear that where equipped on other players or only damage numbers and Kill Proof? I believe I read something for some time ago how some players demanded screen shots of other players equipped gear to even be allowed to join in RAIDs, but I can be wrong.

It showed equiped gear on players.

 

[Electra.7530]

On 11/1/2021 at 2:41 PM, Asum.4960 said:

The sad reality is there are builds that almost pretty much just Auto Attack and do more than enough DPS (20-25k), by far, to hit every "DPS check" in- and beat pretty much any Raid encounter - but a great deal of GW2 players simply have no idea about those builds or how incredibly poor their performance ingame is to even think about sensible build choices or seeking out resources that can help them improve. 

 

You really, really don't have to be an "elite player" for content such as Raids, nor do you have to play them in a cut throat "survival of the fittest" environment. 

You can genuinely join together with a pretty casual and fun group, and given the right builds, willingness to learn the fights and the right mentality that wiping doesn't have to mean failure but that it's part of progression and learning - clear that content just fine while having a blast. 

 

And I think that's the frustration some people with DPS meter's feel, when they see players joining their group as DPS and then do 3k DPS and then get defensive and hostile when after a few wipes someone points out that they can't beat the content with that kind of DPS, convinced of themselves they are doing fine. You can't help but think, if you just were aware of your performance you could literally just find and pick up a build auto attacking and do >8 times DPS with no effort at all and we'd be fine. 

 

That's really the only reason I'd maybe want DPS meters in the hands of more players - for them to actually see "oh wow, I'm actually just doing 3k DPS, yet there are people here pulling 30k+, maybe there is a little I could change to at least improve somewhat and have a better time myself with the game, as well as for the benefit of everyone I play with" and getting inspired by that. 

It doesn't come from a place to make anyone feel bad about their performance or to lord any numbers over anyone else (and I'm not sure why some people always inscribe those intentions to DPS meter users, although tbf, I used to be scared of them too before giving them a shot myself)  - just that it could put the community in a better place by providing some more self awareness and discovering a great learning tool for themselves. 

 

The whole reason why we need KP and gatekeeping in GW2 is because you can't trust random players to perform reasonably by any margin. No one wants to gamble on a 3k DPS player joining or a >35k DPS player joining when looking for a DPS, so if the content demands some basic competency, you have to gate the group to increase your chances of getting a player closer to the latter. 

If more players were aware of the giant gap in performance between players and worked just a tiny bit on improvement (be it just changing their build for vast DPS gains, often for less effort), gating would become drastically less necessary, and this pointless and tiring chasm between "casual" and "hardcore" players in this community smaller.

 

*That's not to say everyone has to improve and be good at the game, but when playing in more demanding group content at least imo every participating player has a responsibility towards the other's in the group to not entirely waste their time, and it's unfortunate that while GW2 makes it incredibly easy to reach a more than enough baseline of performance, many are simply not aware that they are literally doing 1/10 of the DPS of others, crippling themselves and any group they join for no reason, and creating hostilities and a gatekeeping environment in the process.

I've seen many players over the years come to the forums or otherwise and complaining about "elitists" for kicking them from groups for lack of DPS, thinking they were maybe <1-2k, or just hundreds of, DPS behind and how that's toxic behavior by DPS meter Users - and it would be if that were the reality. But the matter of fact is I've never seen that happen ingame. Even in gated hardcore CM groups I'm frequently ahead by 5k DPS, in more casual group content by 10k, and I don't care, no one cares. That's still more than enough group DPS to clear the content just fine. But if someone joins as DPS and does >20-30k less DPS (performing around or even below full supports) and we literally can't hit phases, wipe, etc. then that's a problem - especially when they are not at all aware of their own (lack of) performance and get defensive if not hostile (or refuse to communicate entirely) when the issue is eventually brought up - that's generally where, for the sake of enjoyment for the rest of the group, kicks come in to play. 

That's where more information in the hands of more players imo isn't a bad thing, because GW2 by itself unfortunately is pretty bad about giving it's players feedback about their performance, esp. with how incredibly low Story and OW content are tuned to almost guaranty success no matter what (random gear, random traits, random button presses, you will get through everything), giving many the impression that they are doing just fine - which outside of that content just isn't the case.

I have actually tried the DPS meter at events, usually the Bjora Marshes meta event vs. Drakkar.  And I will say that as I watched my damage, I tried other things and other classes to see if there was less or more damage.  I also looked to see what classes were top DPS.  (Hint:  Reaper, well played.)  I found that auto attacking with my hammer on my Herald was my highest damage output.  I chalked it up to just swinging and swinging and swinging with like 99% precision did a lot more than actually cycling through skills and combos.  My dual axe-wielding Bezerker Warrior was up there too.  Both of those were in top 3-5 DPS slots.   A lot of that success I credit buffs from the squad.

I've watched DPS meter on my Marauder scourge in WvW and noticed better than expected results.  I chalk that up to squad members buffing properly.  So, I can't even really say how my damage fares as built.

However, that is to no avail in a raid party for me.  I have completely slipped through the cracks.

[Swarovsky.3281]

An offical DPS meter plugin could be made "visible/working" only out of dungeons/raids/pvp groups: this way you can use it to improve your damage (skill rotation, build, stats etc) in solo missions and Training Dummies without changing the game. 

[Lyssia.4637]

I've never heard of Arcs until this thread, so I don't know what's available already, but I do hope that, if there's ever an official version, it goes that extra step to allow people to view a "report" or something that not only shows the relevant numbers (dps, healing, whatever), but also just says "this is how you compare; here's some suggestions as to what to change to up dps, up healing, etc.  I can look at the numbers all day, but I personally have no clue what it all means, how it hangs together, or, more usefully, what to change to reach whatever level I'm "supposed" to be at.  I suspect I'm not alone, especially among those people who don't frequent these forums.  A tool like that could be a powerful way to teach people how to actually improve.

[Swarovsky.3281]

I'll try to explain a bit... 

 

You don't need to compare yourself with other players to improve your dps/healing.

 

For example, if you can use a dps meter and you want to test new build, you can go into a training area.. there you heal / attack a training dummy and you'll see that you are doing  4k damage/second.  

 

Okay.

Now you can change a trait and you can see your damage raising up to 4.2 k each second. This means you actually found a way to improve your damage.

You can also heal/damage multiple dummies... maybe you are doing 12k damage/s and, same as before, you can try to change your weapon or a trait or even a specialization and see how is that going (14k= better, 8 k = bad).

 

If you want to post your build in public build/guide websites you can add a message like "with this build I can do 16 k damage using this rotation etc."

 

If another player want to try your build, they can go into the training area and check their damage.

If the damage is under 16k they can still play and no-one can blame them because, outside this "training" area, the dps meter plugin is disabled for everyone.

 

Am I making myself clear? 😄

[Linken.6345]

21 minutes ago, Swarovsky.3281 said:

I'll try to explain a bit... 

 

You don't need to compare yourself with other players to improve your dps/healing.

 

For example, if you can use a dps meter and you want to test new build, you can go into a training area.. there you heal / attack a training dummy and you'll see that you are doing  4k damage/second.  

 

Okay.

Now you can change a trait and you can see your damage raising up to 4.2 k each second. This means you actually found a way to improve your damage.

You can also heal/damage multiple dummies... maybe you are doing 12k damage/s and, same as before, you can try to change your weapon or a trait or even a specialization and see how is that going (14k= better, 8 k = bad).

 

If you want to post your build in public build/guide websites you can add a message like "with this build I can do 16 k damage using this rotation etc."

 

If another player want to try your build, they can go into the training area and check their damage.

If the damage is under 16k they can still play and no-one can blame them because, outside this "training" area, the dps meter plugin is disabled for everyone.

 

Am I making myself clear? 😄

What you expalin work fine in openworld since everything works there when 5-6 people out of 50 carry the rest.

but then in raids and strikes.

The commander would check what person is not playing the highest dps meta class.

Oh its person 6 kick nr 6.

Dont matter if nr 6 was doing better then 4 other dps because the commander could not see that.

Fractals same thing the person would get kicked for what class they played not their preformance.

Yea I dont know if we want to go back to those days really.

[AliamRationem.5172]

24 minutes ago, Swarovsky.3281 said:

I'll try to explain a bit... 

 

You don't need to compare yourself with other players to improve your dps/healing.

 

For example, if you can use a dps meter and you want to test new build, you can go into a training area.. there you heal / attack a training dummy and you'll see that you are doing  4k damage/second.  

 

Okay.

Now you can change a trait and you can see your damage raising up to 4.2 k each second. This means you actually found a way to improve your damage.

You can also heal/damage multiple dummies... maybe you are doing 12k damage/s and, same as before, you can try to change your weapon or a trait or even a specialization and see how is that going (14k= better, 8 k = bad).

 

If you want to post your build in public build/guide websites you can add a message like "with this build I can do 16 k damage using this rotation etc."

 

If another player want to try your build, they can go into the training area and check their damage.

If the damage is under 16k they can still play and no-one can blame them because, outside this "training" area, the dps meter plugin is disabled for everyone.

 

Am I making myself clear? 😄

You seem to understand how this information can help you improve.  More information can help even more.  In particular information that provides more relevant context such as boss-specific stats as well as how your values compare to others in the same role.

You dig?

[Abelisk.5148]

DPS meters breed toxicity in PUGs, that is all that needs to be said.

[MarkoGold.7126]

21 minutes ago, Abelisk.5148 said:

DPS meters breed toxicity in PUGs, that is all that needs to be said.

thats just one side of the story and mostly not true for a large amount of players plenty people use it to improve, on the other side i dont think someone who does 7k dps as a dps should be allowed in the group at that point he or she is just a deadweight to the party and i find it very rude that those people dont care about other memebers of the party having to put in more effort and carry that person.

[Lyssia.4637]

1 hour ago, Swarovsky.3281 said:

I'll try to explain a bit... 

<snipped for space>

Am I making myself clear? 😄

You are, but there problems with that method.  Most importantly, for me, it requires a LOT of time for trial and error.  Which is something I simply don't have.  If I'm lucky, I have time to pull down a canned build, toss it on, and still get to do a half hour of WvW, but even that's not a given.  It also requires, for REAL understanding, a vast number of stats on armor and such to play around with, just to check and see what the difference is.

 

Whereas a report could say something like: you are >%60 for necros, at X-Xdps, X-X healing, whatever rez; select Shaman's stats for all armor and weapons and it shows: dps; down %20, X-X/sec, healing up %10 X-X sec, condition same %50 X-X sec; select weapon Celestial, head armor Apothecary, chest Shaman, dps is X-X/sec, etc etc etc.  Preferably with suggestions: Raid dps target: X-X; full Berserkers armor.  If there's a way already to do that in-game, it needs to be much more obvious and advertised.  If there isn't, it's what a DPS meter in-game ought to be.  In my humble opinion, of course.

All examples have nothing whatsoever to do with what's in the game, it's just clearer than using random letters.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Lyssia.4637
"ought to BE", not "ought to me".

[Krzysztof.5973]

6 hours ago, Abelisk.5148 said:

DPS meters breed toxicity in PUGs, that is all that needs to be said.

I agree, when someone is heavily underperforming, dragging down everyone in the squad and then calling everybody else elitist it causes toxicity. 

[Fueki.4753]

4 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

I agree, when someone is heavily underperforming, dragging down everyone in the squad and then calling everybody else elitist it causes toxicity. 

It's more likely to happen the other why around though.

In my experience, it's more often than not the higher end people trying to deny the average people the builds they have fun with.