Can we get an official DPS Meter?

[mythical.6315]

9 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It's more likely to happen the other why around though.

In my experience, it's more often than not the higher end people trying to deny the average people the builds they have fun with.

It depends if those people are joining groups belong to those “higher end people” which had specific requirements. 

[Fueki.4753]

24 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

It depends if those people are joining groups belong to those “higher end people” which had specific requirements. 

If people have requirements for their group, they ought to put them into the description.

However, those groups I experienced didn't have any requirements, yet these people complained anyway.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Ashantara.8731]

On 11/1/2021 at 11:04 AM, Asum.4960 said:

Performance only matters in places where players rely on each other to succeed and have fun, which is pretty much only niche instanced away group content in GW2.

I disagree. Any group content, of which there is a lot in GW2 (as in most MMOs), profits from high DPS. You can hop to the next map meta a lot sooner when the current boss doesn't take additional phases. Sometimes, when you're running late due to said delay, you can't join the next one because the map is already full.

Decent DPS always comes in handy.

[Asum.4960]

36 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It's more likely to happen the other why around though.

In my experience, it's more often than not the higher end people trying to deny the average people the builds they have fun with.

That's a bit of a weird wording, "denying people the builds they have fun with". If someone joins a high end group with a poor build, performing terribly, aren't they just as much denying the entire rest of the group their fun of a smooth and fast run? 

The beauty of DPS meter's is that they drastically increase the degree to which everybody can play whatever profession or build they enjoy, as long as it performs reasonably as proven by the DPS meter - without which, as we had it before, you'll get much more class and build prejudices. 

Playing flat out bad builds and not contributing will always earn (and arguably deserve) criticism by other players though, who rely on you in group content. That's not a result of DPS meter's though. It's not like other players can't spot the full signet Warrior or Longbow ranger pewpew'ing at max range and conclude that they are probably the cause of poor group performance and ruining everybody else's fun without DPS Meter.

 

But I can wholeheartedly say that high end groups, in which I can almost guarantee everyone is running a DPS meter, are generally the least toxic and most relaxed groups to play with since everybody knows they are performing well, know that even the "hardest" of content in the game is fairly easy with proper builds and knowledge of mechanics and don't make a big deal out of mistakes (or having less experiences players join if they clearly communicate their lack of experience) since they know they can compensate for them, things are going smoothly and clean, everybody thanks each other for their contribution at the end of runs, etc. 

 

9/10 times when I experience toxicity ingame it's started by players who are underperforming and clearly have no idea about their own (lack of) performance, and are either compensating by lashing out or reacting defensively/hostile to measured, valid and constructive criticism.

[Fueki.4753]

55 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

That's a bit of a weird wording, "denying people the builds they have fun with". If someone joins a high end group with a poor build, performing terribly, aren't they just as much denying the entire rest of the group their fun of a smooth and fast run?

And now imagine a T2 Swampland group with no requirements.

And elitist joins the group and demands people switch from their personal builds to meta builds because Mossman didn't die within 5 seconds.

Who'd be the toxic one there? The people who did not set any requirements, or the elitist who wants to force their way on this group?

55 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

The beauty of DPS meter's is that they drastically increase the degree to which everybody can play whatever profession or build they enjoy, as long as it performs reasonably as proven by the DPS meter - without which, as we had it before, you'll get much more class and build prejudices.

And the ugly of DPS meters is, that it encourages to play be numbers, not by personal feeling and fun. Some people might enjoy seeing big numbers, but then there also are people who enjoy camping specific attunements on Elementalist. If the game was dedicated by DPS meters, the latter group would be forced out of their fun.

People are free to enjoy their so-called beauty of DPS meters - on their own risk using Arc - without forcing that kind of  crap down everyone else's throat.

55 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Playing flat out bad builds and not contributing will always earn (and arguably deserve) criticism by other players though

And trying to force players to play something they don't enjoy doesn't deserve criticism?

What's the point in playing a game in a way that doesn't give you enjoyment?

A game shouldn't be designed around maximum output, but around maximum fun. These two don't always align well (and in case of attunement campers, they do not align at all).

 

 

They game is not designed around top end players, which actually are a very small minority.

If they want maximum output, they ought to create their own groups with their own requirements.

If they join other groups, especially those without requirements, they have to accept suboptimal performance. If, for whatever reason, they can't accept suboptimal performance, they simply need to stay away from these groups.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Tukaram.8256]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:17 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

But GW2 also has instanced content, so Arenanet could set up a heroes-like system that is restricted to that instanced content.

No need to limit them, really. My necro and ranger have their minions & pets... followers are followers. 😎

 

[Krzysztof.5973]

28 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And now imagine a T2 Swampland group with no requirements.

And elitist joins the group and demands people switch from their personal builds to meta builds because Mossman didn't die within 5 seconds.

Who'd be the toxic one there? The people who did not set any requirements, or the elitist who wants to force their way on this group?

And the ugly of DPS meters is, that it encourages to play be numbers, not by personal feeling and fun. Some people might enjoy seeing big numbers, but then there also are people who enjoy camping specific attunements on Elementalist. If the game was dedicated by DPS meters, the latter group would be forced out of their fun.

People are free to enjoy their so-called beauty of DPS meters - on their own risk using Arc - without forcing that kind of  crap down everyone else's throat.

And trying to force players to play something they don't enjoy doesn't deserve criticism?

What's the point in playing a game in a way that doesn't give you enjoyment?

A game shouldn't be designed around maximum output, but around maximum fun. These two don't always align well (and in case of attunement campers, they do not align at all).

 

 

They game is not designed around top end players, which actually are a very small minority.

If they want maximum output, they ought to create their own groups with their own requirements.

If they join other groups, especially those without requirements, they have to accept suboptimal performance. If, for whatever reason, they can't accept suboptimal performance, they simply need to stay away from these groups.

Yes, toxicity exists on both ends of the spectrum. Nobody denies that. But having dps meter outweighs existence of couple bad apples that would for whatever reason require high end performance in t2 fractals. 

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And now imagine a T2 Swampland group with no requirements.

And elitist joins the group and demands people switch from their personal builds to meta builds because Mossman didn't die within 5 seconds.

Who'd be the toxic one there? The people who did not set any requirements, or the elitist who wants to force their way on a group?

Ofc the person joining and demanding unreasonable things from the other players. But I have to say, as someone who frequently joins random low end Fractals groups, Recs and LFG's asking for help in Fractals for years now to help people out, I've almost never seen that happen (from actually high performing, likely to be using DPS Meter, players). 

Not to say my personal experience is all encompassing, but if that does happen, just kick that player and move on?

I don't see a few bad people as a reflection of a good and productive tool - especially since such things, in my experience, happened way more before we had DPS Meter's (and still now from people without), with people just assuming things and flaming people based on what profession or build they played.

 

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And the ugly of DPS meters is, that it encourages to play be numbers, not by personal feeling and fun. Some people might enjoy seeing big numbers, but then there also are people who enjoy camping specific attunements on Elementalist. If the game was dedicated by DPS meters, the latter group would be forced out of their fun.

People are free to enjoy their so-called beauty of DPS meters - on their own risk using Arc - without forcing that kind of  crap down everyone else's throat.

And trying to force players to play something they don't enjoy doesn't deserve criticism?

What's the point in playing a game in a way that doesn't give you enjoyment?

A game shouldn't be designed around maximum output, but around maximum fun. These two don't always align well (and in case of attunement campers, they do not align at all).

 

Look, I just feel like you are largely fighting an imaginary enemy/fear with this. 

I don't know if we are just playing completely different content with completely different communities, but I just don't see this "shoving DPS Meter stats down people's throat" happening - other than those very rare scenarios in which it is more than justified - aka group content where people rely on each other and someone is underperforming to a point where it bars or unreasonably slows progression and ruins the experience for everybody else - and even then, I generally see it done in a measured, calm and respectful/matter of fact manner, not a toxic one. 

 

Far more often when I experience someone flame other players for low performance, it's by players who almost certainly don't run DPS Meter's, because otherwise they would know that they themselves were doing horribly. Hell, I've been flamed by people that my DPS sucks by players doing literally <1/5 of my damage, while I was on a support hybrid FB carrying them (which they likely perceived as a bad "off-meta" build, judging my performance due lacking factual information). 

 

The thing is just that since you presumably don't use a DPS Meter and don't have access to those metrics, you attribute every negative experience and instance of people calling each other out to DPS meter's - when in reality it's just toxic idiots who if anything would be greatly helped by the reality check over their own performance that a DPS Meter could provide. 

T3 Fractals and such, where DPS Meter users are presumably far rarer, are in my experience drastically more toxic than T4 and especially CM groups.

 

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

They game is not designed around top end players, which actually are a very small minority.

If they want maximum output, they ought to create their own groups with their own requirements.

If they join other groups, especially those without requirements, they have to accept suboptimal performance. If, for whatever reason, they can't accept suboptimal performance, they simply need to stay away from these groups.

 I completely agree. The irony with that is that that's exactly what many high end players have been resorting to to avoid group friction, hostility and toxicity, by making their own KP/LI gated groups to play in an environment with likeminded players that's fun to them - for which they are then also flamed as toxic elitists for gating their own groups. 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Asum.4960

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And now imagine a T2 Swampland group with no requirements.

And elitist joins the group and demands people switch from their personal builds to meta builds because Mossman didn't die within 5 seconds.

Who'd be the toxic one there? The people who did not set any requirements, or the elitist who wants to force their way on this group?

And the ugly of DPS meters is, that it encourages to play be numbers, not by personal feeling and fun. Some people might enjoy seeing big numbers, but then there also are people who enjoy camping specific attunements on Elementalist. If the game was dedicated by DPS meters, the latter group would be forced out of their fun.

People are free to enjoy their so-called beauty of DPS meters - on their own risk using Arc - without forcing that kind of  crap down everyone else's throat.

And trying to force players to play something they don't enjoy doesn't deserve criticism?

What's the point in playing a game in a way that doesn't give you enjoyment?

A game shouldn't be designed around maximum output, but around maximum fun. These two don't always align well (and in case of attunement campers, they do not align at all).

I don't condone that sort of behavior and would sooner kick a person acting that way than berate someone for poor performance, but I think after a certain point you have to ask yourself why this happens to you so much.  I've done enough fractals to unlock fractal savant and I almost never see this.  Using a fringe hypothetical scenario as your excuse to demonize damage meters is pretty flimsy, in my opinion. 

[Vilin.8056]

 

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I don't condone that sort of behavior and would sooner kick a person acting that way than berate someone for poor performance, but I think after a certain point you have to ask yourself why this happens to you so much.  I've done enough fractals to unlock fractal savant and I almost never see this.  Using a fringe hypothetical scenario as your excuse to demonize damage meters is pretty flimsy, in my opinion. 

Same here, I've always bring fun and experimental builds to T2 fractal in pugs, and never had such issues.

If any, people weren't getting kicked in mid tier contents for bringing fun builds, they usually gotten the abuse for being entirely useless. Making analytics information available for everyone will definitely help out more than simply yelling out "personal feelings"

That's not say I recommend something like the ArcDPS layout to new players, generally that's just way too much information for an entry player to process in the middle of boss/level mechanics, too much focus in reading ongoing DPS number can be a major distraction. A post battle report might serve the purpose better.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[mythical.6315]

7 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If people have requirements for their group, they ought to put them into the description.

However, those groups I experienced didn't have any requirements, yet these people complained anyway.

They do. There are people that just ignore them. 

[Sirius.4510]

I've recently started getting back into high-end content, and honestly the attitudes of the players involved have been better than I expected. Haven't tried T3 fractal pugs - I've heard things about them - but I have tried a few in strikes, and even boneskinner/whisper, there hasn't been a lot of berating going around, even when things are breaking down.

Of course, my sample size is not that big and I don't doubt there's some toxicity out there. Most raids and strikes are not so hard that you can't survive a player or two who is underperforming though.

Also, regarding fun builds... I guess your mileage may vary, but I find doing good DPS to be fun, too. Maybe maxing it out might force you into play styles you're not comfortable with, but even if you really want to sit back as a ranger and pew pew, you can actually make that pew pew really hurt if you choose your gear and traits well, and it doesn't hurt your survivability all that much.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:47 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

If you want an DPS meter, use Arc and open yourself up to all the risks that may come with an unsupported addon.

I don't want to see an official DPS meter in the game.

If anything in regards to DPS meters, Arenanet should do what FF14 does and make talking about others' DPS a reportable offense.

Ah, another reason why FF14 is actually garbage.

How about we turn this around and, if you're provably the cause of holding back progress in a group activity, your account can be actioned and you could be suspended? You are, in fact, wasting 4-9 other people's time by playing poorly.

[medivh.4725]

I use the inbuild meter to measure myself. Only bad thing you cannot compare against or across players. I think anet just needs to work on that

[wolfsblut.9435]

I would preferer a much more gamified solution.

Something like all NPCs around Tyria talking in the days after a fail to you and (more) chatting about you and your last biggest fail.

Something like: Have you heard what he did!? He wiped half his group with the chain....if he only stopped moving.... and more tips like that. 

 

[pcgamefreak.5208]

On 10/31/2021 at 5:33 PM, Parasite.5389 said:

an in-game DPS meter would cause more issues Socially with the game.

people are already kicked from raid/fractal groups for because someone is unhappy with their DPS output; making a meter an official function of the game would just re-enforce the idea that this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

 

And those players are small minded.

 

For starters, you have hackers who can do anything they want to as far as God Mode or stat boosting.  I watched a hacker online as he/she decrypted packets during the CGI and ran their own memory modifying program/tool.  They were giving themselves what ever they wanted and couldn't be traced/detected and they were selling their programs.  That's why you see so much impossible stuff going on in WvW and you gotta believe they're doing this in PvE/Raids as well.  Hell, they can run a one man raid with God Mode.

 

Secondly, you have 'OP' classes to begin with and can't expect a class that's not 'OP' to keep up with 'OP' DPS.  End of Dragons classes are all 'OP' compared to the older ones.  The "Devs" clearly just wanted to sell the expansion, which tells me GW2 will never be balanced because it's all about the $$ for them and not about making a balanced game and cracking down on the hacking.

 

This is the kind of stuff that could have been avoided or at least greatly reduced if the developers would have put a much greater effort in creativity, balance and logic.  Players are stuck on DPS and by not making pure Condi builds capable of damage like Power builds, you further encourge the gross DPS obsession.  I'm not even going to explain why stacking condition isn't equal to stacking power...it's not rocket science if you play the game.  The reason is right in your face...just play WvW stacking no power, only conditional damage.  You'll find out why.

 

This poor design flaw is the reason the Necro is the worst class in WvW because the class itself is heavy on conditional damage by concept, but yet the "Devs" have the wrong concept with conditional damage; the same way they have the wrong concept for ranged DPS.  Ranged attacks should be "CC" or lower damage, peroid, not super high DPS.

 

Guildwars 2 is a worst re-creation of World of Warcraft.  The "Devs" would have been better off just keeping the Tank, Healer, DPS, Support concepts of old and allowing armor types to actually mean something.  It bewilders me everytime a player say they're a healer in the game.  What's a healer?  The concept of that doesn't exist.  Damage, healing, status, etc, is done as a whole in Guildwars 2.  You may be stacking healing power but you're still not a healer in the truest sense of the term.  A healer would be a Priest in World of Warcraft, who has the healing abilities/power to keep an entire group alive, solo.

 

On the WvW hacking again...  I know the kind of hacking in WvW just couldn't be done on client-side, which is why I coined the term "ArenaNet Babies" because server-side access would have been needed to do the things I see all the time in WvW.  Now, I'm not sure if it's the "ArenaNet Babies"...not after seeing a video of a hacker catching and decrypting packets.  That's just as good as having access to the server-side.  These hackers are clearly professionals as in college educated computer science skills.  No rookie hacker could pull that kind of stuff off.

 

It's a shame players go into WvW to farm legendaries and have to put up with not only poor game concepts but hackers who can't be beat nor stopped in WvW.

 

A day or two ago (or few days) I seen a new kind of hack....  I was on the green team in WvW and saw a commander tag pop up on the map for green.  Myself and others went to the  tag and found the commander surrounded by red team players who were no attacking him/her.  From out of nowhere, red Zerg appears, takes out all green players except me (because I'm usually the last to fall).  That's when the green team commander TURNED RED and started attacking me along with the red Zerg.  I lasted long enough to see that clearly.

 

That hack was total suprise and this isn't good at all because if hackers are getting more clever like this and players get caught with this kind of thing more and more...  The crap will hit the fan for GW2.

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

6 minutes ago, Horace.3184 said:

 

And those players are small minded.

 

For starters, you have hackers who can do anything they want to as far as God Mode or stat boosting.  I watched a hacker online as he/she decrypted packets during the CGI and ran their own memory modifying program/tool.  They were giving themselves what ever they wanted and couldn't be traced/detected and they were selling their programs.  That's why you see so much impossible stuff going on in WvW and you gotta believe they're doing this in PvE/Raids as well.  Hell, they can run a one man raid with God Mode.

 

Secondly, you have 'OP' classes to begin with and can't expect a class that's not 'OP' to keep up with 'OP' DPS.  End of Dragons classes are all 'OP' compared to the older ones.  The "Devs" clearly just wanted to sell the expansion, which tells me GW2 will never be balanced because it's all about the $$ for them and not about making a balanced game and cracking down on the hacking.

 

This is the kind of stuff that could have been avoided or at least greatly reduced if the developers would have put a much greater effort in creativity, balance and logic.  Players are stuck on DPS and by not making pure Condi builds capable of damage like Power builds, you further encourge the gross DPS obsession.  I'm not even going to explain why stacking condition isn't equal to stacking power...it's not rocket science if you play the game.  The reason is right in your face...just play WvW stacking no power, only conditional damage.  You'll find out why.

 

This poor design flaw is the reason the Necro is the worst class in WvW because the class itself is heavy on conditional damage by concept, but yet the "Devs" have the wrong concept with conditional damage; the same way they have the wrong concept for ranged DPS.  Ranged attacks should be "CC" or lower damage, peroid, not super high DPS.

 

Guildwars 2 is a worst re-creation of World of Warcraft.  The "Devs" would have been better off just keeping the Tank, Healer, DPS, Support concepts of old and allowing armor types to actually mean something.  It bewilders me everytime a player say they're a healer in the game.  What's a healer?  The concept of that doesn't exist.  Damage, healing, status, etc, is done as a whole in Guildwars 2.  You may be stacking healing power but you're still not a healer in the truest sense of the term.  A healer would be a Priest in World of Warcraft, who has the healing abilities/power to keep an entire group alive, solo.

 

On the WvW hacking again...  I know the kind of hacking in WvW just couldn't be done on client-side, which is why I coined the term "ArenaNet Babies" because server-side access would have been needed to do the things I see all the time in WvW.  Now, I'm not sure if it's the "ArenaNet Babies"...not after seeing a video of a hacker catching and decrypting packets.  That's just as good as having access to the server-side.  These hackers are clearly professionals as in college educated computer science skills.  No rookie hacker could pull that kind of stuff off.

 

It's a shame players go into WvW to farm legendaries and have to put up with not only poor game concepts but hackers who can't be beat nor stopped in WvW.

 

A day or two ago (or few days) I seen a new kind of hack....  I was on the green team in WvW and saw a commander tag pop up on the map for green.  Myself and others went to the  tag and found the commander surrounded by red team players who were no attacking him/her.  From out of nowhere, red Zerg appears, takes out all green players except me (because I'm usually the last to fall).  That's when the green team commander TURNED RED and started attacking me along with the red Zerg.  I lasted long enough to see that clearly.

 

That hack was total suprise and this isn't good at all because if hackers are getting more clever like this and players get caught with this kind of thing more and more...  The crap will hit the fan for GW2.

 

 

Sir, this is a Wendy's.

[Woof.8246]

What if there was an official dps-meter and if people could play a content (let's say OW meta) for few months and those participants would vote in-game afterwards if they want a dps meter to be activated in  that said mode  ?

 

CM modes results would be a little screwed (mostly will agree for activation ) , but  that toll is needed there

[Borked.6824]

Ya know, every day I sit here and sperg out min-maxing my rotation in strikes, usually putting myself at risk and at the expense of my fellow teammates just to get my rightful place at the top of the little magic stacky bar thing of might and wonder and glory, but every time I'm done I'm like "half the people in that group probably didn't even see what you just did there..."

I feel like most GW2 instance content is like a geeky dude jamming out flailing his arms to a polka song while everyone just stands around in confusion. 

There's no point to a damage meter in this game.  We know this; especially when minimum requirement for group content is 100% uptime of every buff in existence.

[lezbefriends.7516]

The more hardcore modern MMOs don’t have meters inside the game - you have to download them separately - so why would the most casual MMO ever have them?

[Bladestrom.6425]

25 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

The more hardcore modern MMOs don’t have meters inside the game - you have to download them separately - so why would the most casual MMO ever have them?

 

lol your right, WOW is a game engineered to make people aim to beat everyone else on meters, and it doesn't offer one, its also renowned for being extremely toxic around meter performance, which just shows a meter in game wouldn't necessarily make it worse  The Root cause is the type of gameplay the game design promotes (e.g WOW - DOG eat DOG who has the biggest numbers) and fortunately Anet are smart enough to keep that kind of content in check. 

Back to point above though, It is clear that across all AAA MMORPG all game designers and developers have avoided adding meters in game, bearing in mind its simply a UI over their own logs they already output - that is no accident and shows that they are considered more harmful than beneficial all things considered (or at best, cost v benefit does not weigh up)

Edited October 10, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563