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I dont get it, Why wont the devs at least UPDATE the boring maps??? mists, etc...


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I come back to this game year after year...same old problem.

 

The END game pvp is just TERRIBLE.  Its not the classes/skills/mobs...its the POINTLESSNESS of it.  Are they going to do ANYTHING to address this?


I mean, all they would have to do is introduce a PVE/PVE centralized dungeon in the maps to farm world bosses/epic mobs..and cause CONFLICT.  Shoot, even a dungeon or map could open up for the "side" that has the most keeps held...just SOMETHING besides this ill thought out point flipping mob scarcity boredom world.

 

I was all excited about the expansion, purchased and bought into the hype...now once again just seems same old same old.

 

Too bad, great combat/skills buts TERRIBLE end game pvp.

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I mean incentive.

 

Look, You have 3 maps around the eternal war map.  Those 3 maps are just lifeless.  Nobody cares, its just standing on points and watching them flip.

 

Why not revamp and place epic mobs out there, dungeon caverns that go deep and the lower you go the more massive the mobs become with drops/items etc.  Have these area's contested because if you dangle the carrot there, people WILL show up which will cause fights/reason.

 

Right now, its flip a node standing around and go in circles..boring mobs, boring camps..just boring.  This game has so much potential and it will NOT affect pve'rs in the slightest.  The pvp end-game here is just NON-EXISTANT.

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On 11/3/2021 at 4:59 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

What do you mean? They had a lagfest laser event in Desert BL and a long time ago before Heart of Thorns existed there was a orb running mechanic in middle of ruins.

Both were removed for a reason.

Just think about how many years ago that was and now take newer PCs and the DX11 update into account...

It's time they bring these events back, or come up with new similarly varied ideas. The OP is right, the current state of WvW is downright boring, it's the same stuff day in and day out, without real consequences or innovative changes. (I'm still waiting for them to replace one of the Alpine Borderlands with a new map, by the way - preferably one that introduced some new mechanics.)

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3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Just think about how many years ago that was and now take newer PCs and the DX11 update into account...

It's time they bring these events back, or come up with new similarly varied ideas. The OP is right, the current state of WvW is downright boring, it's the same stuff day in and day out, without real consequences or innovative changes. (I'm still waiting for them to replace one of the Alpine Borderlands with a new map, by the way - preferably one that introduced some new mechanics.)

It wasn't client-side lag it was server-side skill lag. DX11 won't mean anything when Amazon EC2 instances are the problem.

We still have skill lag (as in not firing at all forget about delay) occurring on a daily basis, go to Ley Line Anomaly for example.

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i mean the maps shoulda been updated long ago. and partly have been, like a lot of stuff apparently was changed, many years ago.

 

recently, they have the legit excuse of working on EoD, which anet better be doing, guess we all agree on that. a new wvw map EBG-style would be appreciated by everyone, but the hope aren't high on it, i feel.

 

inb4 we get a new map with 90% water 💣

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15 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It wasn't client-side lag it was server-side skill lag. DX11 won't mean anything when Amazon EC2 instances are the problem.

That is true. I did not play WvW back then, so thanks for clarifying that.

Yes, skill lags are awful. I am doing the Ley-Line Anomaly daily, and it is nearly impossible a lot of the time to get any skills with a cast time of more than half a second through. Same with the Death-Branded Shatterer.

I hope they will address the server-sided lag next once the DX11 beta reaches a stable state.

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You have to remember that the number of interconnections goes up exponentially.

Also see slides from GDC Vault from before the move to AWS , in particular page 45 onwards https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024442/-Guild-Wars-Microservices-and
 

Quote


Guild Wars 2 World v World
● World vs. World vs. World maps have game state that persists
for a week (or whatever you configure)
● The game state is stored in the load balancer and in the maps
The load balancer can restart; and the maps can restart (e.g.,
when a new game build comes out); and as long as both don’t
restart at the same time the state is maintained

● (The load balancer secretly keeps an emergency backup of the
state but it is rarely used – maybe once every few years.)

Transaction Restartability
● Restarting a service means it is off-line
for 10 to 20 seconds

● It’s a pain to move the state to a sibling
service for such a short outage
● So a strategy for retrying transactions is
important for such a brief outage

Rules for retrying transactions
● Only retry on time-out – all other errors should be reported as errors and
the transaction abandoned
● You should only automatically retry a few times (4-6), about every 30
seconds

● Most problems resolve themselves in a couple of minutes or not at all;
might as well give up (which generally helps rather than hinders load
issues, if that was the problem)
● Given application knowledge, you might make your own retry rules for
specific transactions (e.g., game client patching retries forever)
● Random exponential retry is a waste of effort at the application level and
just introduces uncertainty


Post AWS:
https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/gametech/arenanet-guild-wars-mmorpg-migration/
 

Quote

 

To test the resilience of AWS servers for its persistent maps, in September 2017 ArenaNet began a hybrid deployment of the game. “And since we are crazy, we did it at the same time we happened to be releasing our second expansion, Path of Fire,” Clarke-Willson explained,  “We were able to scale up quickly for the influx of players in-game (double our normal active users) and then stabilize those maps in AWS.”

After the successful live deployment, ArenaNet began migrating its remaining microservices to AWS.

...
ArenaNet is also utilizes AWS CloudFormation for deployment, Amazon CloudWatch for monitoring, and a diverse variety of Amazon EC2 instance types including T3, C5, M5 and R5, of all different sizes

 

----

Each instance type defined by Amazon:
 

Spoiler

 


T3 , General Purpose

Quote

T3 instances accumulate CPU credits when a workload is operating below baseline threshold. Each earned CPU credit provides the T3 instance the opportunity to burst with the performance of a full CPU core for one minute when needed. T3 instances can burst at any time for as long as required in Unlimited mode.

C5, compute
 

Quote

C5 instances are optimized for compute-intensive workloads and deliver cost-effective high performance at a low price per compute ratio.

M5, General Purpose
 

Quote

M5 instances are the latest generation of General Purpose Instances powered by Intel Xeon® Platinum 8175M processors. This family provides a balance of compute, memory, and network resources, and is a good choice for many applications.

R5 , memory optimized
 

Quote

R5 instances deliver 5% additional memory per vCPU than R4 and the largest size provides 768 GiB of memory. In addition, R5 instances deliver a 10% price per GiB improvement and a ~20% increased CPU performance over R4.


 

 

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On 11/3/2021 at 4:53 AM, Wrain.6792 said:

I come back to this game year after year...same old problem.

 

The END game pvp is just TERRIBLE.  Its not the classes/skills/mobs...its the POINTLESSNESS of it.  Are they going to do ANYTHING to address this?


I mean, all they would have to do is introduce a PVE/PVE centralized dungeon in the maps to farm world bosses/epic mobs..and cause CONFLICT.  Shoot, even a dungeon or map could open up for the "side" that has the most keeps held...just SOMETHING besides this ill thought out point flipping mob scarcity boredom world.

 

I was all excited about the expansion, purchased and bought into the hype...now once again just seems same old same old.

 

Too bad, great combat/skills buts TERRIBLE end game pvp.

 Im really confused. You talk about boring Endgame PvP but you want PvE Content in WvWvW. ehhh

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This is the split between people that think:

* PVP modes should have no PVE at all, all content should be other players. and...
* PVP modes benefit from having PVE stuff to draw players into, so other players can come an interrupt it to create content.

WvW(vW) is a PvPvE format, and as such is actually built around the second point (That's the design purpose of all the objectives and their respective npcs). The question is really only about to what degree of PvE elements to use, not that they're there.

But personally I think the mode would benefit from leaning a bit more on the PvE side, and use it more actively to make things happen that will draw players from all sides to the same places. There's a lot of options for using PvE elements to lead/draw players into conflicts, or fighting over more resources. Like the OP suggested having a Dungeon that is only open to the faction that controls the area around it (DaoC style), or having areas with large amounts of interesting materials making WvW a good material farm (risk vs reward) and thus letting other players come and hunt them down (or protect them...).

Best of all, would be if they actually made different maps have different levels of this. So there could be one map (probably EBG) with almost no pve elements, they could probably even shut off the mercenaries and grub. And have other maps with varying amounts of PvE elements, like adding even more to the Desert map for example (Heck, PvE guides, that leas groups around the map to assault objectives and thus learn to navigate the map).

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On 11/2/2021 at 11:59 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

What do you mean? They had a lagfest laser event in Desert BL and a long time ago before Heart of Thorns existed there was a orb running mechanic in middle of ruins.

Both were removed for a reason.

 

On 11/9/2021 at 5:46 AM, Ashantara.8731 said:

That is true. I did not play WvW back then, so thanks for clarifying that.

Yes, skill lags are awful. I am doing the Ley-Line Anomaly daily, and it is nearly impossible a lot of the time to get any skills with a cast time of more than half a second through. Same with the Death-Branded Shatterer.

I hope they will address the server-sided lag next once the DX11 beta reaches a stable state.

 

Given that Center event:  What created the Lag, was the laser show that damaged all of the structures that enemies held.  The actual event where you worked against the other teams for the 'orbs' was quite effective.  

 

Consider:  Maybe..  just maybe, they did the center event with some other process to carry out the damage to the enemy structures... Maybe the damaged walls just 'appear' (of course no idea if that could actually 'just' happen lol)  It would bring people to the center area for fights, while at the same time, accomplishing a reward process for succeeding at the event.  

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On 11/8/2021 at 8:25 PM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

i mean the maps shoulda been updated long ago. and partly have been, like a lot of stuff apparently was changed, many years ago.

 

recently, they have the legit excuse of working on EoD, which anet better be doing, guess we all agree on that. a new wvw map EBG-style would be appreciated by everyone, but the hope aren't high on it, i feel.

 

inb4 we get a new map with 90% water 💣

But I want a water map...

 

 

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Does this actually work in other games? It certainly doesn't seem to in Elder Scrolls Online. Their equivalent of WvW (the Alliance War, or Cyrodiil) has a lot of PvE content including quest hubs, stand-alone quests in open areas and delves which are like mini dungeons throughout the map.

People who want to play PvP ignore all of those because they're irrelevant to PvP, and periodically complain about PvEers taking up spaces in the map to do those activities. PvE players come in to do the PvE content occasionally and ignore PvP because it's not why they're there, then complain about having to go into a map where they might encounter PvP when they want to do purely PvE activities.

The nearest it ever gets to the PvE content generating more PvP activity is sometimes a ganker will camp near a quest hub or skyshard (which is like a hero point) because players interacting with them are frozen in place for a few seconds and presumably the only way they'll ever be able to kill another player is if they can't fight back.

They also added another map - the Imperial City - which was supposed to merge PvP and PvE activities even more closely but it has the same effect. People go there for one or the other and try to ignore the one they're not doing as much as possible, then complain that they have to see players who aren't there for the same reason they are.

It's not as directly comparable but I've seen similar things in other games, going back to when Ultima Online first split their maps between PvP enabled ones and PvE only and the PvP ones immediately became a ghost town because if you didn't want to fight there was no reason to touch it and if you wanted an actual fight it made more sense to go to an arena where you knew you'd find PvPers than hope to stumble across a ganker who wouldn't run away if you looked competent.

I like the idea of adding more variety to WvW maps (the Desert Borderlands is my favourite, for exactly this reason) but I think it needs to be things which tie into WvW activity, not purely PvE activities, even ones which are unlocked by playing WvW.

Edited by Danikat.8537
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On 11/17/2021 at 5:09 PM, Danikat.8537 said:

Does this actually work in other games? It certainly doesn't seem to in Elder Scrolls Online. Their equivalent of WvW (the Alliance War, or Cyrodiil) has a lot of PvE content including quest hubs, stand-alone quests in open areas and delves which are like mini dungeons throughout the map.

People who want to play PvP ignore all of those because they're irrelevant to PvP, and periodically complain about PvEers taking up spaces in the map to do those activities. PvE players come in to do the PvE content occasionally and ignore PvP because it's not why they're there, then complain about having to go into a map where they might encounter PvP when they want to do purely PvE activities.

The nearest it ever gets to the PvE content generating more PvP activity is sometimes a ganker will camp near a quest hub or skyshard (which is like a hero point) because players interacting with them are frozen in place for a few seconds and presumably the only way they'll ever be able to kill another player is if they can't fight back.

They also added another map - the Imperial City - which was supposed to merge PvP and PvE activities even more closely but it has the same effect. People go there for one or the other and try to ignore the one they're not doing as much as possible, then complain that they have to see players who aren't there for the same reason they are.

It's not as directly comparable but I've seen similar things in other games, going back to when Ultima Online first split their maps between PvP enabled ones and PvE only and the PvP ones immediately became a ghost town because if you didn't want to fight there was no reason to touch it and if you wanted an actual fight it made more sense to go to an arena where you knew you'd find PvPers than hope to stumble across a ganker who wouldn't run away if you looked competent.

I like the idea of adding more variety to WvW maps (the Desert Borderlands is my favourite, for exactly this reason) but I think it needs to be things which tie into WvW activity, not purely PvE activities, even ones which are unlocked by playing WvW.

Overall I think it is a misnomer to call WvW a PvP/PvE mode. Just because there are walls, critters and guards doesn't make the mode PvE as there is ultimately no challenge to the players in the environment itself. For the walls and guards to matter there has to be players to PvP around them. Without that they are no more PvE than a target golem. They are flags where time has been replaced by the time it takes to deplete an HP bar. This is also largely the problem with the PPT and PPK (which are better terms) divide in WvW and why PPT is suffering as a factor of WvW. No, WvW is a Battleground and Battlegrounds are ultimately a PvP mode. Even PPT is (supposed to be) PvP.

Those other games you mention also takes a different approach. They take more of an oldschool open-world approach to their whatever battlegrounds (or true open world PvP zones). Much of what you describe is simply down to that pressure has made the developers taint the original balance between PvE and PvP that existed there. They have allowed players who do not like PvP access to equal or greater PvE rewards than those PvE rewards that exist within the PvP zone. That's why those zones rarely become popular in those games because the risk-reward balance it upset by not gaining greater reward for greater risk. That also upsets the PvP in those zones because there PvP hinges more on good old "piracy" and gaining rewards by affecting and controlling the best regarded PvE zones.

Even if people in GW2 sometimes suggest that WvW claims should provide things like crossmode (PvE) bonuses and the like, what you have are essentially two different type of game modes: Things that draw upon oldschool open world PvP rewards and things that merely take the gameplay of open world PvP and isolates it within its own mode with its own reward structures. WvW in GW2 is clearly the latter while Cydoriil or things attempted by Archeage or Black Desert look more towards the old. Games like WoW kinda had both at its inception with World PvP zones (on PvP servers) and Battlegrounds. It is also the likely source of the industry shying away from world-PvP as with most other norms and trends in the industry. Games that are more PvP or true PvP/PvE hybrids have always had other forms of risk-reward systems built into their games, usually doubling down on making more dangerous areas more rewarding and making that very fundamental and clear in their games (EVE, DaoC, et. al.).

The same reasons is why I would also be a bit cautious to deem any system impopular or inferior since WoW has dominated this market so much that most games copy them but there are often other games that get overlooked with equal or superior systems. Systems that may be copied by WoW. One of GW2's best examples is how much it has impacted WoW. However, popularity is different and impacting other games with good systems can be problematic if you let those other games capitalise on it more than you can. Popularity has more to do with awareness and the general consensus is that GW2 has been managed beyond poor in that regard. Players of other games do not know how much better WvW is in theory or as a system. They don't know the awesome stuff we have like beetle racing even if they may have heard GW2 did mounts and guild halls pretty well. They just don't know. GW2 is still primarily marketed and developed for its story, and guess what, all those other games also have pretty good story and lore - decades upon decades worth of it. GW2 is not regarded as having better story than any of those games among players that play any of those games, nore better story-driven world- and instanced content.

GW2 was built to have its social systems shine and that is where the game still shines. It is only the developer that has forgotten it or has succumbed in its ambitions. Even if we limit it to LW, the story is their priority and the world is their afterthought. They are still attempting to seed the farmland ontop of their goldmine. The peasants cheer on.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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Considering how little has been put into it, the WvW model itself shines based on how many players its been able to retain with so little updates. To the OP's point we don't fight today for anything except for the interaction. There is no reward for winning, there is nothing to gain and things really haven't changed. Someone will hold SWT and some one else will want to take it back. Now some might say that's why things shouldn't change and we don't need anything more. But I did use retain for a purpose, and it's to state how many we lost due to lack of changes. The key to any game is to be entertained. Different people will be entertained by different aspects. The goal here should be to understand what those are and how many are in common. As in any RvR game the key here is you need a healthy player base for the mode to really shine. Population is important, so retaining and expanding are both key goals. The players are the people that keep the game mode fresh, but you still need to add more sand in your sandbox to allow that to happen.

Now some people will say change is bad, but the ratio of them to those that say it's needed might now more lean to the bad side since the people on the change is needed side have more likely already moved on, which again says much to the strength of the game mode's backbone. But to gain people you need incentives they find entertaining.  

The purpose of the Alliance system is to help ensure player balance. Which I won't go into here outside of saying I was more on server pride side. But the issue with Alliances is that it is attempting to address the symptom of player lose versus addressing the cause. That player lose is due to lack of change. It hasn't helped that other changes haven't been implemented due to resources being applied to the Alliance system which still won't address the root issue. Though the server links have allowed more people to interact with fresh faces it also was just a band-aid. So I am not sure how much that will impact the freshness of the mode. I fear it might be worse as it will in little doubt highly aid the organized and might lead to even heavier lopsided match ups. Don't get me wrong I am not saying being organized is bad, but the more imbalanced the number of organized versus unorganized 'battleshards' the worse the matchups might be. Some servers today can be really unorganized but still do well since the server knows itself and have adapted to that. Personally I love it when a flash mob shows up when someone makes a shoutout. Either way time will tell on the Alliances, but the fact that they seem to be limiting other changes or are the excuses for other changes not occurring has gone on for a quite a bit of time.  

What needs to better be understood is what keeps players and what draws new ones in. What do people find entertaining to make it worth spending their time here versus elsewhere.

 

 

Edited by TheGrimm.5624
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On 11/2/2021 at 11:53 PM, Wrain.6792 said:

I come back to this game year after year...same old problem.

 

The END game pvp is just TERRIBLE.  Its not the classes/skills/mobs...its the POINTLESSNESS of it.  Are they going to do ANYTHING to address this?


I mean, all they would have to do is introduce a PVE/PVE centralized dungeon in the maps to farm world bosses/epic mobs..and cause CONFLICT.  Shoot, even a dungeon or map could open up for the "side" that has the most keeps held...just SOMETHING besides this ill thought out point flipping mob scarcity boredom world.

 

I was all excited about the expansion, purchased and bought into the hype...now once again just seems same old same old.

 

Too bad, great combat/skills buts TERRIBLE end game pvp.

 

I try and play a variety of games to enjoy their individual quirks and try and appreciate their takes on similar concepts. That said its been a running joke for years among guildmates that sooner or later some one is going to grab good concepts from a number of games and combine them. Which is actually what Amazon did as you can play features that you can tell were inspired from a number of other games. Now that said still prefer GW2 WvW system but it also proves out the concept that combing concepts create a feeling of freshness even if its a known system. Another gaming company, Firaxis, had a developer once say our target each time we release is to create 1/3 of the game from something new, 1/3 from the current logic, and 1/3 from concepts that were dropped but players really liked. And at least their model has worked for me since I have been playing their game for 30 years now and will be buying the next expansion, DLC or content as soon as its announced because the model does seem to work.

The forums have gone thru various versions and this is not an uncommon thread over time. There is also nothing wrong with asking the same question that Amazon did, what draws people to games and can we create our own takes on those concepts. There is also nothing wrong with grabbing aspects in GW2 that draws people to other game modes to WvW. What draws players to a PvE over a WvW one. We all have different interests so how to find out the common ones and draw more players, again no one like queues but the mode is better with more. 

For myself:

* New maps, by now we should have had enough maps that they rotated each week - inspiration Warhammer Online

* New objectives, different concepts on different maps, players and their tactics keep things fresh and interesting but you need to change up the battlefield to allow people to try and do new things  - inspiration GW2 EBG, EoTM, DBL, War's differences in Tiers

* Goals, be that in more missions or things people could work toward achieving, missions people could take on to perform WvW tasks - inspiration Destiny 2, buy into missions that reward if you can complete in time

* Achievements - expand the current system or create a new one with repeatable ones - inspiration, Steam, most FPS games

* Stats - people like numbers and like to be geeks, I have been in x amount of large scale fights, I have had x amount of solo kills, I have aided in taking SMC x amount of times, how are you doing among overall players in the game mode for the week - inspiration GW2 sPvP but in a weekly scale

* Unique WvW items - drops, items to work towards with currencies, skins, this is Fashion Wars after all - inspiration GW2 PvE

* End of Week meaning - be that varying levels of participation based on activity, this could tie to a number of the above

The OPs PvE element points remind me of Gambit in Destiny 2, you have two competing PvE elements that allow access to a PvP component. Something similar here could be something like controlling some aspect of the maps allows access to another map. Create a tug of war scenario for a map access, you need to get players into the extra map, you need to control the ruins on x number of borderlands, but that means you will have less on the maps the players are coming from since the population caps need to be considered.

In short we have a strong backbone already in the game mode, but there is still even more potential for it that is also not utilized. Good gaming! That enough Forum Wars for now, time to get back to gaming. 

Edited by TheGrimm.5624
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2 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

I try and play a variety of games to enjoy their individual quirks and try and appreciate their takes on similar concepts. That said its been a running joke for years among guildmates that sooner or later some one is going to grab good concepts from a number of games and combine them. Which is actually what Amazon did as you can play features that you can tell were inspired from a number of other games. Now that said still prefer GW2 WvW system but it also proves out the concept that combing concepts create a feeling of freshness even if its a known system. Another gaming company, Firaxis, had a developer once say our target each time we release is to create 1/3 of the game from something new, 1/3 from the current logic, and 1/3 from concepts that were dropped but players really liked. And at least their model has worked for me since I have been playing their game for 30 years now and will be buying the next expansion, DLC or content as soon as its announced because the model does seem to work.

The forums have gone thru various versions and this is not an uncommon thread over time. There is also nothing wrong with asking the same question that Amazon did, what draws people to games and can we create our own takes on those concepts. There is also nothing wrong with grabbing aspects in GW2 that draws people to other game modes to WvW. What draws players to a PvE over a WvW one. We all have different interests so how to find out the common ones and draw more players, again no one like queues but the mode is better with more. 

For myself:

* New maps, by now we should have had enough maps that they rotated each week - inspiration Warhammer Online

* New objectives, different concepts on different maps, players and their tactics keep things fresh and interesting but you need to change up the battlefield to allow people to try and do new things  - inspiration GW2 EBG, EoTM, DBL, War's differences in Tiers

* Goals, be that in more missions or things people could work toward achieving, missions people could take on to perform WvW tasks - inspiration Destiny 2, buy into missions that reward if you can complete in time

* Achievements - expand the current system or create a new one with repeatable ones - inspiration, Steam, most FPS games

* Stats - people like numbers and like to be geeks, I have been in x amount of large scale fights, I have had x amount of solo kills, I have aided in taking SMC x amount of times, how are you doing among overall players in the game mode for the week - inspiration GW2 sPvP but in a weekly scale

* Unique WvW items - drops, items to work towards with currencies, skins, this is Fashion Wars after all - inspiration GW2 PvE

* End of Week meaning - be that varying levels of participation based on activity, this could tie to a number of the above

The OPs PvE element points remind me of Gambit in Destiny 2, you have two competing PvE elements that allow access to a PvP component. Something similar here could be something like controlling some aspect of the maps allows access to another map. Create a tug of war scenario for a map access, you need to get players into the extra map, you need to control the ruins on x number of borderlands, but that means you will have less on the maps the players are coming from since the population caps need to be considered.

In short we have a strong backbone already in the game mode, but there is still even more potential for it that is also not utilized. Good gaming! That enough Forum Wars for now, time to get back to gaming. 

The above needs to be printed out and stapled to the foreheads of the developers. Some good ideas.

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When they first introduced the desert borderlands it replaced all 3 alpine borderlands and the idea was to rotate them each week (and presumably introduce more new maps in future). Players complained until Anet reverted the change and limited desert borderlands to just 1 map - which many players still avoid because of it's unique mechanics and design.

There's not much point spending time developing new things for a game mode if all it produces is complaints that you need to take it away again, especially if the reason for the changes is to keep people interested in the mode.

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Going back to this thread and reading it more in full I noticed two things that I think have been overlooked.

One:

It's not just a misnomer to call WvW a PvP/PvE hybrid. It is even wrong to discuss the dimensions of PvP and PvE at all here. The OP isn't arguing for more PvE the way we know and understand it. The OP is essentially arguing for Open World PvP in contrast to Battleground PvP or a self-contained PvP mode (game). That's not something for WvW, it is something beside WvW. It is a question for GW2 at large and GW2 is not in a million years likely to introduce Open World PvP or an additional Open World PvP mode or region.

I think Anet (and the players) overall are quite happy with a clear division between the 4 dimensions of MMO represented by story/LW (open PvE), raids/fractals/dungeons/drms/strikes/etc (instanced PvE), sPvP (instanced PvP) and WvW (open/BG PvP). I think the OP wants another game and simply does not appreciate WvW for what WvW is or is meant to be. I'd suggest Archage or EVE Online considering that most other known games also run BG's and tend to run them smaller and less sandboxed than GW2. As always, the saving grace of WvW (and in large part GW2) is that WvW is the best BG on the market. The biggest let down is that Anet can not see or understand its value or are content with just being the best, without making it more appealing to steal BG-players from other games.

Two:

This also transcends into the discussion about scale, maps and specific content for specific groups. It begs the question what they are asking for? One thing that marks substantial problems with EotM and DBL as maps is that they have lost sight of the difference between a map that considers things like small-scale gameplay and ill-attempted placating design for small-scale gameplay. The issue at hand here is that small-scale gameplay is generally included in the eco-system and the best maps are the maps that facilitate all scales and approaches together best.

It's the same argument people make when they point out eg., the objective placement and distance on DBL. It is an example of the map poorly overlapping different approaches between scale, PPT and PPK. The distance of objectives on the other maps better account for bringing different scales and approaches together. You don't need specific things for small-scale players to do since small-scale players can do anything and all the same things that large-scale players can do on the standard maps, the way things should be. That's DBL's problem, it was made to cater to something other than the holistic mode, a something that does not really exist.

A small-scale player is not directly limited to just taking camps or just fighting equal numbers. I have taken Keeps alone and with small groups. I have beaten groups near 50-players with groups of 10 or near 30-players with groups of 5. People who demand specifics are not playing the content to its potential and generally just lack the creativity to do something about it. I don't mean that in a finger-pointing sense. I mean it literally, there is so much you can do and there is a clear and present issue with WvW today that people just do not do or try. They assume things to be impossible or not for them for no good reason what so ever. We are reaching the myth-stage of age, where you can point out something someone does and others will respond that those are gods and it is not for mere mortals.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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A new map would take time and resources away from alliances, but it would be nice to have something  other than the desert border in the future, once they are done with that. (Optimistically next year)

I'm pretty sure they will be stuck with limitations, to the size of the maps as they explained a long time ago, unless it has alot of verticality like you see on the Desert BL.

Even after the beta for that map back in the day, it had issues with bugs and other design issues that wasn't fixed for a while, so at least they should of learned from that.

Edited by CrimsonNeonite.1048
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Seems kinda pointless to think about adding things to borderlands when the population issues could fix it all.

Also adding PvE mobs to WvW isn't going to make these maps popular. WvW players want to play for fights, if they're not already on borderlands they won't go to borderlands. PvE players won't go into WvW because they don't want to PvP.

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