Ugh...REMOVE the down-states in PvP PERMANTENTLY!!! This is great!!!

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

People here who think downed state is just a strategic mechanic that adds skill do not understand the game. Downed state is first and foremost a comeback mechanic.

When GW2 was released, it was marketed and received as a more casual alternative to competing games (like WoW). The downed state was one of the things they conceived to actualize this. It serves the basic function that the blue shell or the bullet bill does in Mario Kart, it lowers the gap between teams in PvP, and between players in PvE (if your less experienced friend dies, you can res or rally them). This makes it far harder to 1v2 / 1vX in GW2 than in many other games. That is the purpose of the downed state, not to add strategic value.

Sure, there is some strategy to "controlling downstates", as it were (bleeding etc), but the relevant question is not if there is strategy to it but rather: "Is it fun?". Is it fun to have to care about the ranger pelting you and pet-ressing, while dueling the revenant? On the receiving end, is it fun to be bled out slowly over 45 seconds instead of getting back into the action sooner and getting to play the game more? In my mind, the answer is "no".

Something I hear people say often is "downstate protects against cheesy oneshot comps". But the thing is, oneshot comps don't exist anymore, even on the squishiest builds possible you are not really oneshotting people these days.

Edited November 9, 2021 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

People here who think downed state is just a strategic mechanic that adds skill do not understand the game. Downed state is first and foremost a comeback mechanic.

When GW2 was released, it was marketed and received as a more casual alternative to competing games (like WoW). The downed state was one of the things they conceived to actualize this. It serves the basic function that the blue shell or the bullet bill does in Mario Kart, it lowers the gap between teams in PvP, and between players in PvE (if your less experienced friend dies, you can res or rally them). This makes it far harder to 1v2 / 1vX in GW2 than in many other games. That is the purpose of the downed state, not to add strategic value.

Sure, there is some strategy to "controlling downstates", as it were (bleeding etc), but the relevant question is not if there is strategy to it but rather: "Is it fun?". Is it fun to have to care about the ranger pelting you and pet-ressing, while dueling the revenant? On the receiving end, is it fun to be bled out slowly over 45 seconds instead of getting back into the action sooner and getting to play the game more? In my mind, the answer is "no".

This is pure nonsense on many levels
 

1) fun is subjective.

2) While you bleed I’m having fun watching you bleed.

3) Luring other teammates to revive you allows me to 1vX your team, and catch 2 kills instead of 1…another strategy for how to use downstate to your advantage.

Your post and basically all posts that complain about downstate basically illustrates that you don’t understand how downstate is part of the game and how to utilize it strategically.

Edited November 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

This is pure nonsense on many levels
 

1) fun is subjective.

Of course it is, that's why I asked the question, and why I said "In my mind, the answer is 'no'".

Quote

2) While you bleed I’m having fun watching you bleed.

That is the most psychotic thing I've ever heard, seek help.

Quote

3) Luring other teammates to revive you allows me to 1vX your team, and catch 2 kills instead of 1…another strategy for how to use downstate to your advantage.

Or you could just duel the guy on more fair terms instead and show your skill and not have to deal with me (a player you already beat) mindlessly spamming attacks in downstate and I don't have to lie there doing the incredibly mindless gameplay of pressing 123111111.

Quote

Your post and basically all posts that complain about downstate basically illustrates that you don’t understand how downstate is part of the game and how to utilize it strategically.

Incorrect. First of all, it is a tautology that downstate is "part of the game", and completely irrelevant. Second of all, I absolutely know how to utilize is strategically, this is just a baseless ad hominem. In my last post I even clarified that there are strategies that can be employed with regards to the downed state, but that this gameplay is less fun and interactive than being in the "up-state", or, fighting another player who is in the up-state.

But by all means, perhaps a player of your caliber would find it more fun to fight a player in the downed state than one who is alive (I can do sly personal comments too).

Edited November 9, 2021 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

9 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Or you could just duel the guy on more fair terms instead and show your skill and not have to deal with me (a player you already beat) mindlessly spamming attacks in downstate and I don't have to lie there doing the incredibly mindless gameplay of pressing 123111111.

 

All is fair, in love and war.

 

Why should I duel the guy on more fair terms...I want to win the game bro.

 

Also, the reason 1vX is possible with downstate, is because most enemies that see a teammate in downstate will attempt a rez. I use their attempt at rezzing, as a way to cleave damage (basically freecast on them). This gives me an advantage and eventually 2 downstate bodies.

Edited November 9, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I'd like to add also to this discussion, the problem isn't revival skills, this is just a misconception. In reality, these skills are rarely used, are hard to get off without Quickness, have high cooldowns, and require build space. Whereas rallying is extremely easy, happens all the time and has no prerequisites.

 

Rally has always been the problem. (And to a lesser extent, just being able to press F to revive.)

 

If anything, revive skills should be stronger and rallying removed entirely. If the team actually depends on well-built and well-played supports to get back up from being downed, it'd be healthier for everyone.

 

The everyone-can-revive and everyone-can-rally is beneficial in PvE where it encourages cooperative gameplay, but in competitive modes team composition should be the deciding factor. Its a system that has worked for many other PvP and RvR games for decades, and shouldn't be discarded so easily.

 

Unfortunately I feel like Guild Wars tries too hard to be different sometimes.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I'd like to add also to this discussion, the problem isn't revival skills, this is just a misconception. In reality, these skills are rarely used

That is not true.

Revive skills are straight up abused to maximum potential in 2v2s, 3v3s, and organized team comps in AT play.

Both instant revive utilities and traits related to enhanced hand reviving need real nerfs going into 2022. And then rallying should probably lose its effect when someone OOCs "out of combat". IE: I am in a big team fight and I am in combat the entire time. If I go into downstate and someone that I had struck during that combat time dies, then I rally. But if I leave that team fight and my characters goes OOC, and then I engage a combat again on a side node, if I go into downstate and then someone from my previous combat that I engaged dies, I do not rally." <- This would make sense.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Exile.8160]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

That is not true.

Revive skills are straight up abused to maximum potential in 2v2s, 3v3s, and organized team comps in AT play.

 

They dont balance the game for deathmatch they balance it for conquest. It has been the main mode since beta.

[Morwath.9817]

1 minute ago, Exile.8160 said:

They dont balance the game for deathmatch they balance it for conquest. It has been the main mode since beta.

Which is probably mistake.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

24 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

They dont balance the game for deathmatch they balance it for conquest. It has been the main mode since beta.

I don't care about any of that.

The revive skills & traits are clearly overperforming game-wide in every competitive mode.

All of it has yet to be adjusted and needs to be adjusted after the mega-nerf.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Exile.8160]

15 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I don't care about any of that.

The revive skills & traits are clearly overperforming game-wide in every competitive mode.

All of it has yet to be adjusted and needs to be adjusted after the mega-nerf.

This is clearly an overeaction. Theres counter play for them so they're not an all powerfull unstopable skill. You just have to be prepared for them if they bother you that much.

Its the same as complaning about stuns but not bringing a single stun breaker to the game. Just come prepared for rez skills.

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Exile.8160

[apharma.3741]

13 hours ago, Exile.8160 said:

This is clearly an overeaction. Theres counter play for them so they're not an all powerfull unstopable skill. You just have to be prepared for them if they bother you that much.

Its the same as complaning about stuns but not bringing a single stun breaker to the game. Just come prepared for rez skills.

 

Yes honestly I don't get some people, the downstate and rally mechanic has a lot of uses from baiting people, bleeding enemies and even timing a down to get healed. Why would people want to remove something that does give the game depth?

Why do some people want revive skills to go back to being never used because they had a longer cast time than it took to stomp? The only class that has a really abusive rez skill is guard (possibly war but gives up too much for self stab) because it can self cover getting it off, do we see eles, rangers, engineers, mesmers or necros really using them?

[Master Ketsu.4569]

On 11/9/2021 at 8:32 AM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

This is pure nonsense on many levels
 

1) fun is subjective.

2) While you bleed I’m having fun watching you bleed.

3) Luring other teammates to revive you allows me to 1vX your team, and catch 2 kills instead of 1…another strategy for how to use downstate to your advantage.

Your post and basically all posts that complain about downstate basically illustrates that you don’t understand how downstate is part of the game and how to utilize it strategically.

 Skill gaps are not subjective. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

56 minutes ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

 Skill gaps are not subjective. 

But how is that anyones fault that you are not having fun because you aren’t skilled enough and get punished for being sent to downstate by someone that is skilled enough to send you into downstate, and smart enough to bleed you for playing recklessly.

 

if you are getting bled out it means you made a play where you got punished for it more harshly then if you didn’t choose that play…that’s supposed to serve as a lesson in how to play the game better.

Remove downstate and guaranteed, people will just yolo kamikaze onto nodes because they will just respawn anyway in 15 seconds…which is faster way to rotate to the next node…instead of playing like an actual player and not a yolobot, defeating an enemy and walking to the next node.

Edited November 11, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Spellhunter.9675]

20 hours ago, Exile.8160 said:

This is clearly an overeaction. Theres counter play for them so they're not an all powerfull unstopable skill. You just have to be prepared for them if they bother you that much.

 

There are not enough reliable counterplay options when guard is using signet while having 3 stacks of stability and aegis.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

There are not enough reliable counterplay options when guard is using signet while having 3 stacks of stability and aegis.

Teef: Haha, Steal on Guardian goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Also Teef: Haha, Chocking Gas on downed goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Here, 2 counterplays from single class, even on the same build.

[Exile.8160]

6 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

There are not enough reliable counterplay options when guard is using signet while having 3 stacks of stability and aegis.

The dude used 3 skills for 1 rez why shouldnt he be rewarded for it? He also left himself vunerable for doing so.

Theres thiefs steal, corrupting boom, poison that still work or go for the guard first so he cant even use rez signet. 

Thats 4 counter plays off the top of my head you can use.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Exile.8160

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 11/6/2021 at 7:49 AM, Tayga.3192 said:

If this happened, pvp will turn into a "one shot or be one shotted".

Really? So currently ur being one shorted to downstate or one shotting everyone to downstate? What game are u playing?

[Tayga.3192]

3 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Really? So currently ur being one shorted to downstate or one shotting everyone to downstate? What game are u playing?

No because as long as downstate exists, things like sic em soulbeast, oneshot mesmer, "oneshot" dragonhunter and other oneshot builds are not that viable. Just look at wvw during no downstate events and you will understand. 

Except for necro, time to kill is completely fine right now. 

[Spellhunter.9675]

20 hours ago, Exile.8160 said:

The dude used 3 skills for 1 rez why shouldnt he be rewarded for it? He also left himself vunerable for doing so.

I used 8 to get his teammate in to downstate. Why I shouldn't be rewarded with kill?

 

20 hours ago, Exile.8160 said:

Theres thiefs steal, corrupting boom, poison that still work or go for the guard first so he cant even use rez signet. 

My teef was on far blindspamming on poor warrior.

Support guard has 3 to 5 permaboons in teamfight, since booncorrupt/boonremoval was nerfed it is removing 2 or rarely 3 boons. So it is not reliable.

 

20 hours ago, Exile.8160 said:

Thats 4 counter plays off the top of my head you can use.

I have another one in mind. My team can stop doing damage so there will be no enemies in downstate and enemy guard can't rez. 200 IQ counterplay.

[Exile.8160]

2 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

I used 8 to get his teammate in to downstate. Why I shouldn't be rewarded with kill?

 

My teef was on far blindspamming on poor warrior.

Support guard has 3 to 5 permaboons in teamfight, since booncorrupt/boonremoval was nerfed it is removing 2 or rarely 3 boons. So it is not reliable.

 

I have another one in mind. My team can stop doing damage so there will be no enemies in downstate and enemy guard can't rez. 200 IQ counterplay.

You did get rewarded you got him in the downstate and into a vunerable position.

 

Then tell thief to watch for guard rez, you can type amd if that doesnt work you can always play one.

 

It is viable, you cant just spam once they are off cooldown. Holding on to your skill for crucial moments is very important in mastering a class.

 

Why are you expecting a win from a team that is not working together vs a team that has a supp guard?  cant complain you lost with a uncoornated team like that.

[Spellhunter.9675]

26 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

Why are you expecting a win from a team that is not working together vs a team that has a supp guard?  cant complain you lost with a uncoornated team like that.

You know what? You are right. Teams that are working together should have an advantage. According to that I am suggesting to remove all stability from support guard. So if you want to rez someone, you have to work with your team to get stability for casting signet.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

The entire stat-distribution and balancing is designed around the existence of the downed-state. Permanently remove = rework the entire combat-system.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Trevor Boyer.6524

Please, when quoting me, read the whole sentence and answer based on the whole sentence (keep in mind that out of context a few words can be used to say the opposite of their intent and that's what you seem to do). I said that PvE would be the same without downstate, not PvP, so your whole deny of my point, basing yourself on PvP platinum2 arguments feel more insulting than anything.

PS: Next time don't cut a sentence in the middle as to avoid putting words out of context, thank you!

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

The entire stat-distribution and balancing is designed around the existence of the downed-state. Permanently remove = rework the entire combat-system.

They nerfed almost all damage by ~33% in PvP, but left downstate damage as-is. The game is not well balanced around downstate at all, it is balanced around the whims of specific devs at Anet.

Also more on topic for the thread, even if you really want to keep "managing downstates" as a strategy in the game, you can just remove all the downstate skills in PvP (maybe except bandage), especially ranger pet skills, or at least nerf downstate damage by ~90%. The strategy would still be there.

Edited November 12, 2021 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Fueki.4753]

13 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

They nerfed almost all damage by ~33% in PvP, but left downstate damage as-is. The game is not well balanced around downstate at all, it is balanced around the whims of specific devs at Anet.

They also powercrept non-downstate damage over the years, while keeping downstate damage as it was. Not touching it on the semi-across-the-board nerf train was fine.

And I don't think the game is balance around anyone's wimps, as it's not balanced at all. The nearly pointless changes they keep doing, especially those slight slaps on the wrists they give to Necromancers, can't be called balance.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Fueki.4753