Legendary Armory and Envoy set

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Literally read the post @Linken.6345  quoted above instead of basing your responses on the fact that OP repeats what he wrote in his opening post, because you're wrong here. Just read the quoted post already. 🤦‍♂️

The quoted post is from the topic creator:

The topic creator hasn't changed their stance , the first post in the thread asks for a 50% reduction in LI.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The quoted post is from the topic creator:

 

Yes. Now read it. All of it 😁

 

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The topic creator hasn't changed their stance , the first post in the thread asks for a 50% reduction in LI.

So why are you talking about moradorin and pretend that "nobody wrote anything else"? He's not responding to moradorin or any random post, he's responding to what/who he quoted. Honestly, I don't know what's so confusing about that.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Infusion.7149]

Moradorin is the only one with a reasonable suggestion so far from what I've seen.

 

[Linken.6345]

54 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Moradorin is the only one with a reasonable suggestion so far from what I've seen.

 

And that still got nothing to do with me or the post from the OP I quoted.

If you want to derail this into talking about another suggestion entierly then maybe start a new topic?

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

6 hours ago, Balmung.7804 said:

I think Arena.net would be good to think about it, even though it's not viable right now because of EoD development. A cosmetic released for those who have completed the 2 collections of the legendary Envoy armor, costing about 50% or 60% LIs of a full set, I think would be fair (of course, logic Mistforged in PvP and WvW).

No.

If you want the skin, but not the legendary (As you have an armor set from another game mode, which is completely fair), the skin should cost more LI than just making it.  The gifts relevant to making a legendary should be removed from the transaction and it should cost some amount of raid currency (Magnetite/gaeting crystals.) per piece and maybe only be available to those who have legendary armor unlocked elsewhere.

[Cyninja.2954]

So where do we go from here then? Should every legendary item receive special treatment and an alternative and potentially cheaper way to acquire the skin?

 

The inconsistency here IS the lacking spvp/wvw legendary skin. That should get fixed. Done.

 

Making the raid legendary armor skins cheaper does nothing in fixing the irregularity players face who have different legendary armor skins from multiple modes. 

 

Instead of bandaid fixing singular issues,  the healthier approach would be to simply add 2 armor sets worth of unique skins. Yes, that would mean any player who desires each legendary skin does have to craft each legendary.

[Sobx.1758]

7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So where do we go from here then? Should every legendary item receive special treatment and an alternative and potentially cheaper way to acquire the skin?

True (if I understood correctly). If anet sets that precedence, then crafting -for example- any legendary greatsword after you have any other 2 legendary greatswords (which is the limit for one build) should become "discounted" to just "map/special currencies".  This way you just craft 2 cheapest options (1st gen) and then have easier/cheaper followup with any new legendary weapon gen. And with that being said... I don't think that's needed at all.

IF there's anything to resolve here, it's the differentiation between precursor and legendary skins.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[The Fear.3865]

17 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Moradorin is the only one with a reasonable suggestion so far from what I've seen.

 

 

8 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The inconsistency here IS the lacking spvp/wvw legendary skin. That should get fixed. Done.

Instead of bandaid fixing singular issues,  the healthier approach would be to simply add 2 armor sets worth of unique skins. 

This is the only reasonable suggestion. If it's too much for anet, nothing should be done. 

[Cuks.8241]

There is really no need to be consistent between modes and to change reward models that have been in the game for years and that many players acquired. There are inconsistencies all over the game and also different game modes, different play styles, different reward acquisition methods. 

These considerations are fine for new rewards but to go and change old structures just because something related was added, nah. Where does it end, there will always be players that want something cheaper.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

4 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

These considerations are fine for new rewards but to go and change old structures just because something related was added, nah. Where does it end, there will always be players that want something cheaper.

Alright, I'll bite;

Is it really cheaper  if, for example, a player is required to have legendary armor from another game mode in order to purchase the skin of another legendary in Raids/WvW/PvP with my suggestion?  Specifically, let's get down to maths.

The cost of the gifts (Ignoring the precursors as their cost is negligible overall)

PvE Armor is 6051g 34s 80c (https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~18-78866;18-78936;18-78989)
PvP armor is 6048g 34s 20c (https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~18-82350;18-84203;18-84174)
WvW armor is 6751g 24s 20c (https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~18-82746;18-83259;18-84168)

This isn't about "getting something cheaper" this is about no longer needing the functionality of multiple legendary armor sets so there's basically no reason to make them outside of the skins. The suggestion is to make the PvE armor  skin have the option of being obtained without legendary functionality without acquiring the legendary gifts required to make it (EG the huge costs) but still requiring raids like how PvP and WvW  still require you to have achieved a certain rank and have a certain amount of currency to their respective game modes to buy the precursor armor that shares the skin with the legendary variant.

[genjonah.1253]

31 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Alright, I'll bite;

Is it really cheaper  if, for example, a player is required to have legendary armor from another game mode in order to purchase the skin of another legendary in Raids/WvW/PvP with my suggestion?  Specifically, let's get down to maths.

The cost of the gifts (Ignoring the precursors as their cost is negligible overall)

PvE Armor is 6051g 34s 80c (https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~18-78866;18-78936;18-78989)
PvP armor is 6048g 34s 20c (https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~18-82350;18-84203;18-84174)
WvW armor is 6751g 24s 20c (https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~18-82746;18-83259;18-84168)

This isn't about "getting something cheaper" this is about no longer needing the functionality of multiple legendary armor sets so there's basically no reason to make them outside of the skins. The suggestion is to make the PvE armor  skin have the option of being obtained without legendary functionality without acquiring the legendary gifts required to make it (EG the huge costs) but still requiring raids like how PvP and WvW  still require you to have achieved a certain rank and have a certain amount of currency to their respective game modes to buy the precursor armor that shares the skin with the legendary variant.

Which, from a standpoint of coming in after the introductions and everything, I can at least understand the argument. However, given some context, I respectfully disagree with it.

 

when Envoy armor launched, it was supposed to be the be all and end all. There was not really intended to be other legendary armor at all. Eventually, they added the functionality of legendary to PvP and WvW armors (that were already ‘prestige’, though subjectively not to the same extent as raid armor). 
 

The legendary armory being added was a hyuuuuge gift to the player base. It was a BENEFIT to only need one of each armorset, forever. While it came at the expense of this problem (skins for different sets now being ‘obsolete’ from a functionality standpoint), they gave compensation to those who had already crafted multiple of the same, and more. Yes, going forward, it will be waaaaay more efficient to go for the SKIN you want because functionality is universal, but looking backward- you still got exactly what you paid for, and now have the ability to use freely transmuted, freely stat swapped armor (even across different builds) across every character of a weight. 
 

Would it be cool to get Envoy skins if you had only unlocked the competitive armor for the functionality (what I did)? Kind of. But doing this retroactively come at the cost of highly devaluing the effort of those who unlocked that armor/skin through the current system, which I find very ‘uncool’, even if it’s at my ‘benefit’. 
 

idk- I don’t have all the answers. But I think the current system/state of things is fair as it is

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, genjonah.1253 said:

Would it be cool to get Envoy skins if you had only unlocked the competitive armor for the functionality (what I did)? Kind of. But doing this retroactively come at the cost of highly devaluing the effort of those who unlocked that armor/skin through the current system, which I find very ‘uncool’, even if it’s at my ‘benefit’. 
 

idk- I don’t have all the answers. But I think the current system/state of things is fair as it is

You're missing part of my suggestion; The skins themselves would still require you to do the raids, you'd still need the LI + Raid currency (And perhaps including finishing the precursor collection) to unlock the ability to purchase the skins.  In fact, my suggestion was to make the LI +currency cost more than if you crafted the legendary currently.  Basically, as is, it costs the gifts + 750 LI to get all 18 pieces of Envoy.  My suggestion, without the gifts, is it should cost anywhere from 1k LI to  1500 LI + a set amount of Raid currency to unlock just the skins IF the player already has a legendary piece from another game mode.

[Raizel.1839]

I don't get all this arguing here, I'm perfectly fine the way it is now.

[genjonah.1253]

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You're missing part of my suggestion; The skins themselves would still require you to do the raids, you'd still need the LI + Raid currency (And perhaps including finishing the precursor collection) to unlock the ability to purchase the skins.  In fact, my suggestion was to make the LI +currency cost more than if you crafted the legendary currently.  Basically, as is, it costs the gifts + 750 LI to get all 18 pieces of Envoy.  My suggestion, without the gifts, is it should cost anywhere from 1k LI to  1500 LI + a set amount of Raid currency to unlock just the skins IF the player already has a legendary piece from another game mode.

Hmm. Again, I do think the current system is the best thing currently. But I wouldn’t mind this 

[Cyninja.2954]

7 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Alright, I'll bite;

Is it really cheaper  if, for example, a player is required to have legendary armor from another game mode in order to purchase the skin of another legendary in Raids/WvW/PvP with my suggestion?  Specifically, let's get down to maths.

The cost of the gifts (Ignoring the precursors as their cost is negligible overall)

PvE Armor is 6051g 34s 80c (https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~18-78866;18-78936;18-78989)
PvP armor is 6048g 34s 20c (https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~18-82350;18-84203;18-84174)
WvW armor is 6751g 24s 20c (https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~18-82746;18-83259;18-84168)

This isn't about "getting something cheaper" this is about no longer needing the functionality of multiple legendary armor sets so there's basically no reason to make them outside of the skins. The suggestion is to make the PvE armor  skin have the option of being obtained without legendary functionality without acquiring the legendary gifts required to make it (EG the huge costs) but still requiring raids like how PvP and WvW  still require you to have achieved a certain rank and have a certain amount of currency to their respective game modes to buy the precursor armor that shares the skin with the legendary variant.

 

No longer needing the functionality of legendary gear was never a reason in the past to reduce it's cost. 

 

Also in your suggestion, players who crafted multiple legendary armor pieces from multiple modes are still shafted. Where as if an additonal spvp/wvw set were added, those players would at least receive a unique skin (and give other players a reason to craft those items as legendarys).

 

It's simply: if you want the skin or effect, you pay the gold.

 

I get the reason "why" players want reduces costs for skins. It's the "well let me have it for cheaper" mentality. If we are arguing fairness and balance though, that is NOT the fairest or most sensible way to resolce this imbalance.

[Firebeard.1746]

23 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So where do we go from here then? Should every legendary item receive special treatment and an alternative and potentially cheaper way to acquire the skin?

 

The inconsistency here IS the lacking spvp/wvw legendary skin. That should get fixed. Done.

 

Making the raid legendary armor skins cheaper does nothing in fixing the irregularity players face who have different legendary armor skins from multiple modes. 

 

Instead of bandaid fixing singular issues,  the healthier approach would be to simply add 2 armor sets worth of unique skins. Yes, that would mean any player who desires each legendary skin does have to craft each legendary.

The weirdness here is that the Mistforged sets are almost legendary: they're fairly shiny. IMo, they should have been the visual upgrade for making legendary WvW/PVP armor, but Anet I guess wanted to give those players more to grind by gating them behind ranks instead. I 100% agree this is inconsistent and should be dealt with. 

[Astralporing.1957]

12 hours ago, genjonah.1253 said:

when Envoy armor launched, it was supposed to be the be all and end all. There was not really intended to be other legendary armor at all.

That's actually not entirely true. When they first mentioned legendary armor and its mode of acquisition, there was nothing about it being the only way to obtaining a legendary armor set. This exclusivity was created not by original design ideas, but due to something much simpler - the effort they had to put into creating Envoy. They scrapped the idea of more legendary armor aestethics not because they wanted raids to be the only source of legendary armor, but because they no longer wanted to spend any effort to create more.

If they did not go with the transforming armor idea, but decided upon more conservative aestethics, i'm quite sure we'd have more legendary armor sets by now (and full ones, not skinless ones like the SPvP/WvW sets).

12 hours ago, genjonah.1253 said:

Would it be cool to get Envoy skins if you had only unlocked the competitive armor for the functionality (what I did)? Kind of. But doing this retroactively come at the cost of highly devaluing the effort of those who unlocked that armor/skin through the current system, which I find very ‘uncool’, even if it’s at my ‘benefit’. 

As an owner of Envoy sets, i can tell you that i do not need exclusivity, or denying stuff to others to feel value in my own accomplishments. No, making that skin more easily available, making true WvW/SPvP legendary tier skins, or making OW legendary armor set would not result in devaluing my effort at all. And if you think it would devalue yours, it's obvious you simply do not value it enough already.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

6 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

No longer needing the functionality of legendary gear was never a reason in the past to reduce it's cost.

More or less because the armory wasn't there.  There's a reason people would go out of their way to make 2x or even 4x of a legendary weapon type because it was more convenient to have it across multiple characters than it was to take off the armor, bank it, log o ff that character, log onto the character you plan on playing, equip the armor, set the attributes, sigils, and runes, (maybe infusions too).

It's almost like an update introduced this problem. 🤔

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

More or less because the armory wasn't there.  There's a reason people would go out of their way to make 2x or even 4x of a legendary weapon type because it was more convenient to have it across multiple characters than it was to take off the armor, bank it, log o ff that character, log onto the character you plan on playing, equip the armor, set the attributes, sigils, and runes, (maybe infusions too).

It's almost like an update introduced this problem. 🤔

 

I don't recall getting a discount on a T2 legendary weapon skin only because I owned multiple of the T1 version. Nor is there an option for that now.

 

I don't recall getting a discount for any of my other 2 legendary backpacks or their skins, even though I had Ad Infinitum first.

 

People who had multiple of the same legendary armor were rewarded with Trunks. 

 

It's the players  who had different legendary armors from different modes which were in the unlucky position that the skin they had crafted was available as non legendary skin (unique aming kegendary gear btw) thus leaving them with no advantage over others who owned the skin too (and the players who will be even more disfavored if even more skin are made cheaper).

 

A simple fix really without having to reinvent te wheel: add spvp and wvw legendary looks.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[genjonah.1253]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's actually not entirely true. When they first mentioned legendary armor and its mode of acquisition, there was nothing about it being the only way to obtaining a legendary armor set. This exclusivity was created not by original design ideas, but due to something much simpler - the effort they had to put into creating Envoy. They scrapped the idea of more legendary armor aestethics not because they wanted raids to be the only source of legendary armor, but because they no longer wanted to spend any effort to create more.

If they did not go with the transforming armor idea, but decided upon more conservative aestethics, i'm quite sure we'd have more legendary armor sets by now (and full ones, not skinless ones like the SPvP/WvW sets).

As an owner of Envoy sets, i can tell you that i do not need exclusivity, or denying stuff to others to feel value in my own accomplishments. No, making that skin more easily available, making true WvW/SPvP legendary tier skins, or making OW legendary armor set would not result in devaluing my effort at all. And if you think it would devalue yours, it's obvious you simply do not value it enough already.

 

‘No plans to release another set…’ 

 

the legendary armor set, clearly, was intended to be the only one for some time, at least. Which means that, at the time, the functionality/skins were going to be exclusive entirely to raid acquisition

 

as for your snide personal attack, it’s unnecessary. You could simply say you value it differently

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

A simple fix really without having to reinvent te wheel: add spvp and wvw legendary looks.

Simple  fix? (Insert J Jonah Jameson Laugh here)

No, my friend, it took ANet two years to (Or in their words, one year twice) develop envoy armor, what makes you think adding new armor that animates like envoy to PvP and  WvW would be simple?

The simple solution is my suggestion; give a method to earn just the skins with double the effort in raids. 

The  simplest solution is to tell players to just deal with it.

[Cyninja.2954]

27 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Simple  fix? (Insert J Jonah Jameson Laugh here)

No, my friend, it took ANet two years to (Or in their words, one year twice) develop envoy armor, what makes you think adding new armor that animates like envoy to PvP and  WvW would be simple?

The simple solution is my suggestion; give a method to earn just the skins with double the effort in raids. 

The  simplest solution is to tell players to just deal with it.

Okay let me rephrase:

The "fairest" fix would be to add the 2 armors.

 

Anything else is just stacking favor with some players at the expense of others, in which case the status quo is fairer and requires no work at all.

[Astralporing.1957]

36 minutes ago, genjonah.1253 said:

 

‘No plans to release another set…’ 

That was 4 years ago, so after the armor was already released. They weren't talking like that when it was first announced, or when it was still being designed. It was not the original design, but exactly the effort they ended up putting into creating the transformating look design (and effort they did not predict) that ended up any hope for more sets.

So, pretty much exactly what i was saying in my previous post.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

On 11/20/2021 at 2:13 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

So where do we go from here then? Should every legendary item receive special treatment and an alternative and potentially cheaper way to acquire the skin?

 

The inconsistency here IS the lacking spvp/wvw legendary skin. That should get fixed. Done.

 

Making the raid legendary armor skins cheaper does nothing in fixing the irregularity players face who have different legendary armor skins from multiple modes. 

 

Instead of bandaid fixing singular issues,  the healthier approach would be to simply add 2 armor sets worth of unique skins. Yes, that would mean any player who desires each legendary skin does have to craft each legendary.

I don't see why not.  I also don't see why ANet wouldn't just do this for armor and leave the rest alone.

[patton the great.7126]

It is both more expensive and much harder to attain the WvW sets. Why on earth would you want to cheapen your work by applying the Utube skin to our skills sets?