The issue of stealth (and other oddly implemented mechanics)

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

25 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

We could argue, if ability to disengage at any time isn't stealth related, espcially when most popular build is D/P.

Hmm. 

Would you say disengage via stealth is key  to thief being perceived as OP in conquest, when conquest centers around contesting points and 2v2/3v3 centers around supporting your allies? 

I dunno, I still kind of consider that adjacent. They're fundamental for conquest due to their mobility/decap potential, but mechanically I wouldn't say they're stacked. 

I'd agree as far as it being annoying, but not so far as game breaking. 

[Aplethoraof.2643]

On 11/8/2021 at 1:35 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

Just because the top end minority has learned to deal with a mechanic, doesn't make it less broken.

Isn't this basically saying it is a L2P issue?

 

Just because the better players have found an effective counterplay, doesn't mean it isn't busted?

 

Why not use the counterplayers that they have found instead of saying it is OP, then?

[AliamRationem.5172]

12 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 

The fact is, Thief is the only class ingame which has hardcounters in form of NPCs (Guards, Towers) and Items (Traps). There are also several classes who has Reveal in form of skills.

So why did they feel the need to build stealth counters into the game in this way, do you think?  Is it because everyone needs to L2P?  Or is it because stealth is op af and everybody knows it?  Found the thief player...

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

14 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 

The fact is, Thief is the only class ingame which has hardcounters in form of NPCs (Guards, Towers) and Items (Traps). There are also several classes who has Reveal in form of skills.

 

It IS a L2p problem here. That most thiefs running D/P is the fault of ArenaNet because they nerfed every other set to oblivion or it was straight bad since realese.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, these features weren't added because of Thieves at all.

 

Sentries, Watchtowers and stealth removal traps (now Target Painters), and Arrow Cart #5 exist because back in the old days of WvW, havoc groups and even entire zergs could permastealth and move around the map (or even camp inside of objectives) by constantly dropping smoke fields and blasting the ever loving crap out of them. And literally everyone carried blast finishers because it was usually the best way to stack Might, heal, etc. back then.

 

These tactics fell out of favor precisely because these counters were added, so that groups would actually engage each other on the battlefield instead of just moving around each other all the time from point to point.

 

That's why you see the more realistic but still effective Scrapper-style stealth of a short duration used for engagement now instead of everyone running around untouchable with smoker's cough.

 

These counters barely affect Thieves at all when properly played because you still get 2sec of stealth uptime and the only use Thieves have for stealth in most cases is executing combat maneuvers which don't depend on staying in stealth at all. The rare exception is permastealth in an objective for portals.

 

Many Thieves on here talk alot, but also don't seem to understand their own class, either.

 

---

Anyway the biggest problem with stealth isn't that it makes you invisible, its that it breaks targetting, even removing the personal Ctrl+T target marker. This leads to alot of Artificial Difficulty (a very common problem in games all throughout history), since selecting a target in this game, especially by clicking them, is one of the biggest issues with the input and interface, hence the complaints about Spectre which is ironic since Thieves should've learned what its like for a change. Sometimes you're not fighting a Thief, just the game's controls.

 

Sure, you can use keybinds as most everyone does, but that's not guaranteed to select the Thief if anyone else is around, or if there's any object, or ambient mob, and so on. Most of the better players who are good at killing Thieves are using action cam, which bypasses alot of the frustrations (and again, lead to complaints when it didn't work on Spectre) and you can see this on video sites like YouTube.

 

Its never been stealth that's the problem, its the game's lack of QoL surrounding it and everything else.

 

And it ultimately hurts Thieves, too. The more Thief mains defend their class's broken mechanics, the more the class gets nerfed to balance it out. Its precisely the reason you can't have nice things. If the implementation of stealth was better, Thief could be made alot more powerful. You're effectively self-sabotaging.

 

Again, we already saw with Spectre that its capable of much more.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Deleted due to duplicate post.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Fueki.4753]

5 hours ago, Aplethoraof.2643 said:

Isn't this basically saying it is a L2P issue?

 

Just because the better players have found an effective counterplay, doesn't mean it isn't busted?

 

Why not use the counterplayers that they have found instead of saying it is OP, then?

That only a few percentages at the top can reliable deal with it should already show that it's broken.

If a big part portion of the playerbase could reliably deal with it, it would be a different matter. But that's not the case.

Complete invisibility, especially directly next to he enemy, should not exist.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Morwath.9817]

14 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Hmm. 

Would you say disengage via stealth is key  to thief being perceived as OP in conquest, when conquest centers around contesting points and 2v2/3v3 centers around supporting your allies? 

I dunno, I still kind of consider that adjacent. They're fundamental for conquest due to their mobility/decap potential, but mechanically I wouldn't say they're stacked. 

I'd agree as far as it being annoying, but not so far as game breaking. 

 

Don't you think, if "stealth isn't the reason for Thief being competitive", but its "annoying for majority of players", it should be removed and Thief should get other powerful tools instead? Because, if it's true that would be win-win situation for both Thieves and the rest of playerbase. I'd also like to add that Assassin in GW1 had no single stealth related skill in his Shadow Arts 😉.

 

 

[Genesis.5169]

8 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

So why did they feel the need to build stealth counters into the game in this way, do you think?  Is it because everyone needs to L2P?  Or is it because stealth is op af and everybody knows it?  Found the thief player...

There was time were mesmers and theives would mass invis blobs and and murder with that that is why...WvW is a very different animal then spvp they balanced for large large numbers over the folks thinking about 1v1 situations are far far away from the intended way the game mode is supposed to be played.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Burial.1958]

7 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, these features weren't added because of Thieves at all.

 

Sentries, Watchtowers and stealth removal traps (now Target Painters), and Arrow Cart #5 exist because back in the old days of WvW, havoc groups and even entire zergs could permastealth and move around the map (or even camp inside of objectives) by constantly dropping smoke fields and blasting the ever loving crap out of them. And literally everyone carried blast finishers because it was usually the best way to stack Might, heal, etc. back then.

 

These tactics fell out of favor precisely because these counters were added, so that groups would actually engage each other on the battlefield instead of just moving around each other all the time from point to point.

 

That's why you see the more realistic but still effective Scrapper-style stealth of a short duration used for engagement now instead of everyone running around untouchable with smoker's cough.

 

These counters barely affect Thieves at all when properly played because you still get 2sec of stealth uptime and the only use Thieves have for stealth in most cases is executing combat maneuvers which don't depend on staying in stealth at all. The rare exception is permastealth in an objective for portals.

 

Many Thieves on here talk alot, but also don't seem to understand their own class, either.

 

---

Anyway the biggest problem with stealth isn't that it makes you invisible, its that it breaks targetting, even removing the personal Ctrl+T target marker. This leads to alot of Artificial Difficulty (a very common problem in games all throughout history), since selecting a target in this game, especially by clicking them, is one of the biggest issues with the input and interface, hence the complaints about Spectre which is ironic since Thieves should've learned what its like for a change. Sometimes you're not fighting a Thief, just the game's controls.

 

Sure, you can use keybinds as most everyone does, but that's not guaranteed to select the Thief if anyone else is around, or if there's any object, or ambient mob, and so on. Most of the better players who are good at killing Thieves are using action cam, which bypasses alot of the frustrations (and again, lead to complaints when it didn't work on Spectre) and you can see this on video sites like YouTube.

 

Its never been stealth that's the problem, its the game's lack of QoL surrounding it and everything else.

 

And it ultimately hurts Thieves, too. The more Thief mains defend their class's broken mechanics, the more the class gets nerfed to balance it out. Its precisely the reason you can't have nice things. If the implementation of stealth was better, Thief could be made alot more powerful. You're effectively self-sabotaging.

 

Again, we already saw with Spectre that its capable of much more.

I play since headstart and im the oldest commander on my server. I do really know the good old days. 

That doesn't change the fact that those are hardcounters against thiefs which can be used beside all the AoE Counter, Blocks, Invul etc. 

 

Fact 2: When Stealth is so OP and the class generally why is it then one of the least played class in the game? 

 

 

 

[Morwath.9817]

4 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

Fact 2: When Stealth is so OP and the class generally why is it then one of the least played class in the game? 

 

Certainly not least played in sPvP.

Maybe in PvE, because you don't want to stealth to kill mobs, just kill them.

Maybe in WvW, because class is lacking in zergwars and roaming is side game.

 

[Burial.1958]

Just now, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Certainly not least played in sPvP.

Maybe in PvE, because you don't want to stealth to kill mobs, just kill them.

Maybe in WvW, because class is lacking in zergwars and roaming is side game.

 

 In SPVP it is simply a decap bot because d/p thief can't hold Points and 1vs1 most players there (+1 Gameplay). 

[Morwath.9817]

30 minutes ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

 In SPVP it is simply a decap bot because d/p thief can't hold Points and 1vs1 most players there (+1 Gameplay). 

 

You can't hold points because of stealth... for same reason +1 gameplay is enforced as whenever you stealth or disengage as Thief in equal number fights, you cause number disadvantage for your team (as they get focused while you do nothing). As you see, stealth has only negative effect both on gameplay for others and on Thief himself.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Don't you think, if "stealth isn't the reason for Thief being competitive", but its "annoying for majority of players", it should be removed and Thief should get other powerful tools instead? Because, if it's true that would be win-win situation for both Thieves and the rest of playerbase. I'd also like to add that Assassin in GW1 had no single stealth related skill in his Shadow Arts 😉.

I really don't care what mitigation means thief has, as long as it is effective and viable in combat. It doesn't necessarily have to be stealth in its current form/at all, but there have been multiple avenues of approach towards low stealth gameplay that have surfaced over the years (Sword Pistol, Staff/Staff/acrobatics builds) that have been met with equal levels of disapproval, so I'm pretty convinced people in general just don't like fighting thieves, regardless of how they actually fight, and have a habit of floating nerf requests / nerfs disguised as (or with the promise of) buffs for the sole purpose of making them easier to farm.

If you're going to suggest a redesign of the entire thief spec from the ground up, as well as touch mesmer and the other specs that make limited use of it from pvp to pve, the exact nature of these "powerful tools" given to keep them combat viable should be defined up front. 

If you have an idea for how that should work, go for it.  

Edited November 10, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Burial.1958]

7 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

You can't hold points because of stealth... for same reason +1 gameplay is enforced as whenever you stealth or disengage as Thief in equal number fights, you cause number disadvantage for your team (as they get focused while you do nothing). As you see, stealth has only negative effect both on gameplay for others and on Thief himself.

 Lol without stealth you are a Freebag. Thats because thief does not have any Defense outside of Evade and Stealth. The other Sets are bad for PVP. The only viable beside D/P are S/D and P/D (Condi ) where S/D is the only stealthless Build. But even then Peoples Cry about it because of Shadowsteps. 

 

I really don't care about feelings from others. When they have a harsh time against Thief....now they should play one to learn the weak points. 

 

My View on this is. Peoples hate classes with a high skill cap. That means that the strong thief players are better than the average Gw 2 Player and that is the problem. I can see everytime when a enemy did play the thief or not and when he was a very good thief then the only thing i can do is to run. 

 

Fact 3: A Very good Thief player is also on other classes "OP". Because the player is simply good and learned and played the classes. Nobody becomes Ronaldo after he played 1 Football Match. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[Morwath.9817]

25 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I really don't care what mitigation means thief has, as long as it is effective and viable in combat. It doesn't necessarily have to be stealth in its current form/at all, but there have been multiple avenues of approach towards low stealth gameplay that have surfaced over the years (Sword Pistol, Staff/Staff/acrobatics builds) that have been met with equal levels of disapproval, so I'm pretty convinced people in general just don't like fighting thieves, regardless of how they actually fight. 

If you're going to suggest a redesign of the entire thief spec from the ground up, as well as touch mesmer and the other specs that make limited use of it from pvp to pve, the exact nature of these "powerful tools" given to keep them combat viable should be defined up front. 

If you have an idea for how that should work, go for it.  

 

Well, I don't think redesigning Thief would be hard at all...

1. Evade/block frames;
2. Vigor as more dodges;
3. Weakness & Blind as less damage dealt by enemy;
4. Barrier, Life Steal and Regeneration as extra sustain;
5. Protection and Resolution as flat damage reductions.

Give Thieves enough of those split across trait lines and utilities instead of access to Stealth and fighting them will be much better experience. Personaly I don't understand why does Scrouge steal boons with grandmaster trait on boon rip not Thief (yes, I know Thief does steal boons with Sword, Steal and potentialy with stealth attacks)...

Edited November 10, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[jdawgie.1835]

On 11/7/2021 at 7:06 PM, YaminoNakani.7083 said:

So I've had quite a few discussions with high end players (strictly talking PvP here) about stealth.

No you didn't. Stop lying.

On 11/7/2021 at 7:06 PM, YaminoNakani.7083 said:

Invisibility in Guild Wars 2 has one of if not the strongest implementation of invisibility in gaming history.

No it isn't. Not even close. WoW's rouge has far more of this present than the GW2 Thief. 

On 11/7/2021 at 7:06 PM, YaminoNakani.7083 said:

Invisibility in Guild Wars 2 has one of if not the strongest implementation of invisibility in gaming history.

 

On 11/7/2021 at 7:06 PM, YaminoNakani.7083 said:

I haven't played too many different games but the closest implementation of invisibility I've seen in games as it is implemented in Guild Wars 2, is Starcraft 2

So your summarizing gaming history with out having played many games? Your opinion is already void. This post failed literally within your first paragraph. 

On 11/7/2021 at 7:06 PM, YaminoNakani.7083 said:

Now then to the players: discuss, troll, whine, do whatever you like.. I'm not going to read anything below this message. So go nuts.

Garbage contribution to the PvP community right here. You cant ask for a discussion then claim you will read nothing. Wtf is going on here. Arenanet needs to never ever take the forums seriously. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by jdawgie.1835

[Crab Fear.1624]

4 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Well, I don't think redesigning Thief would be hard at all...

1. Evade/block frames;
2. Vigor as more dodges;
3. Weakness & Blind as less damage dealt by enemy;
4. Barrier, Life Steal and Regeneration as extra sustain;
5. Protection and Resolution as flat damage reductions.

Give Thieves enough of those split across trait lines and utilities instead of access to Stealth and fighting them will be much better experience. Personaly I don't understand why does Scrouge steal boons with grandmaster trait on boon rip not Thief (yes, I know Thief does steal boons with Sword, Steal and potentialy with stealth attacks)...

Almost as if thief is becoming guardian ... lol....no...

[Morwath.9817]

7 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Almost as if thief is becoming guardian ... lol....no...

Almost a power herald 😉

[Mushin.6789]

I really want to know who was the genius that decided to give guardians stealth.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, Mushin.6789 said:

I really want to know who was the genius that decided to give guardians stealth.

Probably some Dragonhunters were complaining that they're squishy as kitten in open PvE content and couldn't get from point A to B without being squashed.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 11/10/2021 at 2:15 PM, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Well, I don't think redesigning Thief would be hard at all...

1. Evade/block frames;
2. Vigor as more dodges;
3. Weakness & Blind as less damage dealt by enemy;
4. Barrier, Life Steal and Regeneration as extra sustain;
5. Protection and Resolution as flat damage reductions.

Give Thieves enough of those split across trait lines and utilities instead of access to Stealth and fighting them will be much better experience. Personaly I don't understand why does Scrouge steal boons with grandmaster trait on boon rip not Thief (yes, I know Thief does steal boons with Sword, Steal and potentialy with stealth attacks)...

I feel like most of these were tried with similar levels of disapproval.

• Sword Pistol and staff used to give higher evade frames in exchange for less stealth access, but ended up tapped down because people were upset at the evade frames evading everything (and thieves contesting points with it.)
• We currently have a fraction of people upset at being perpetually blinded by pistol pistol thieves.
• Boontheft for sustain was tapped down as well.
• Acrobatics used to give a lot more vigor, but that was adjusted because people were able to see thieves but not accurately strike them. 
• Protection and resolution wouldn't work very well on thieves because their health pool is miniscule. 
• Barrier generation seems off theme, but seems to be en route to be attempted via specter. 

 

Most of the builds that were used above each used limited amounts of stealth or relied on shortbow for disengage. Stealth has always been detrimental to being integral to thief builds for conquest since it reduces the amount of time they can contest the point, but builds that approached point contest have aggressively been shamed by the community. That, coupled by the fact that anet apparently wants us to play shadow arts, given how aggressively they've added condi damage to it while toning down the above, really leaves us with little choice.

Not to mention they've also nerfed the stealth on Shadow Arts significantly. 

It feels like this suggestion is just another step in the general balancing for thieves going in circles, trying to hit a target of making thieves free kills without actually saying that's what the suggestion is for. If you want to redesign thieves solely to retire the stealth mechanic, it's going to have to be more substantial than just "what they had before, that the community complained away."  

But let's give it the good ol' college try anyway!

How about we start by buffing all those physicals nobody uses on daredevil, like bandits defense/impact strike, and return the initiative costs for all the evasive skills that have been slowly bumped up over the years back to where they were? Then we can talk about boonripping, adjusting vitality, blocks, regen for core since it has less evasion capability than daredevil and you want all the stealth gone, y'know.

You're gonna have to think of something for all the smoke fields too. any leaps or blasts in those and -poof- 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Remove Warrior Stances and ammo from shouts. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

3 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Remove Warrior Stances and ammo from shouts. 

Finally someone that speak facts here.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

19 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Remove Warrior Stances and ammo from shouts. 

Truer words have never been spoken

[Morwath.9817]

17 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I feel like most of these were tried with similar levels of disapproval.

• Sword Pistol and staff used to give higher evade frames in exchange for less stealth access, but ended up tapped down because people were upset at the evade frames evading everything (and thieves contesting points with it.)
• We currently have a fraction of people upset at being perpetually blinded by pistol pistol thieves.
• Boontheft for sustain was tapped down as well.
• Acrobatics used to give a lot more vigor, but that was adjusted because people were able to see thieves but not accurately strike them. 
• Protection and resolution wouldn't work very well on thieves because their health pool is miniscule. 
• Barrier generation seems off theme, but seems to be en route to be attempted via specter. 

 

Most of the builds that were used above each used limited amounts of stealth or relied on shortbow for disengage. Stealth has always been detrimental to being integral to thief builds for conquest since it reduces the amount of time they can contest the point, but builds that approached point contest have aggressively been shamed by the community. That, coupled by the fact that anet apparently wants us to play shadow arts, given how aggressively they've added condi damage to it while toning down the above, really leaves us with little choice.

Not to mention they've also nerfed the stealth on Shadow Arts significantly. 

It feels like this suggestion is just another step in the general balancing for thieves going in circles, trying to hit a target of making thieves free kills without actually saying that's what the suggestion is for. If you want to redesign thieves solely to retire the stealth mechanic, it's going to have to be more substantial than just "what they had before, that the community complained away."  

But let's give it the good ol' college try anyway!

How about we start by buffing all those physicals nobody uses on daredevil, like bandits defense/impact strike, and return the initiative costs for all the evasive skills that have been slowly bumped up over the years back to where they were? Then we can talk about boonripping, adjusting vitality, blocks, regen for core since it has less evasion capability than daredevil and you want all the stealth gone, y'know.

You're gonna have to think of something for all the smoke fields too. any leaps or blasts in those and -poof- 

 

Past implementations of some mechanics were just bad designs, due to how no CD abilities work with Initiative pool and even child should know that will happen during design phase, before it was even implemented to the game, as whole design allows spamming abilities that are "the best" in certain encounters... but honestly I like freedom initiative pool gives.

 

However, if you would add dimishing return to either cost or effects to abilities within certain time frame enabling soft CDs, you could buff things that were nerfed in the past, or even allow to design stronger weapon skill in general and Thief still would keep his freedom.

 

For example, if you got ability that applies Blind, first use of it could be low initiative cost, but whenever you would use it, you would end up with stacking effect on yourself that increases cost of it for serval seconds. In case of some abilities it could be negative modifers to damage or something allowing initial use of ability to be stronger than spammable version of it.

 

Another way of balancing strong abilities could be, adding follow up attacks, that replace said ability with weaker version until used, but that still flip back after certain time period (e.g. 2-3s).

 

Yet another way, is Overcast, prior known as Exhaustion that has negative effect on user and stops user from just spamming ability. Could work perfectly fine with Initiative pool, as its similar to GW1 Energy.

 

So yes, I think you can buff Thief in serval areas, while you remove stealth from him in any shape or form. You just need to add some limitations to no-CD nature of his gameplay. Yet, limitation doesn't need to be equal to "nerf" as long as you don't overdo it and may result as "buff".

Edited November 13, 2021 by Morwath.9817