Removed the WvW participation grace time granted from repairing

[Nidome.1365]

23 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

For those talking about repairing not giving participation:  Note that IF a structure is under attack, and you repair a wall, you will get defense credit for the ‘defend event’ thus giving you participation.  
 

Your world will not end..

 

it appears you have not understood the point being made.

Yes you get participation from defence credit but once you've wiped the attackers most of the time the blob that came to defend runs off to ktrain or whatever they were doing before leaving one or two people to repair the inner and outer of a t3 keep from 10% to 100%.

Unless someone tags the keep while those people are repairing so that they get more defence credit their participation will start to degrade before the keep is fully repaired so they will probably leave the keep half repaired in order to get back their participation.

[Nidome.1365]

Something else I noticed last night - I was catting to open the wall of a t2 enemy keep while allies were distracting them elsewhere for me to do it and I noticed that my participation was dropping while I was catting.

 

With all these participation changes it looks like Anet are trying to turn WvW into a boring open field zerg fest.

Edit: Further observations on catapult use: whether you get a net loss of participation or not is dependent upon range and power. In my original post I was catting from max range so the time to build up power and for the missile to travel to target was greater than the 2 seconds delay to participation loss that the impact gives. Catting from close range with low power gives no participation loss.
They need to sort this really. Catting is participation in the game regardless of range.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Nidome.1365
Additional information

[suialthor.7164]

1 hour ago, obastable.5231 said:

So, I don't know what to tell you here, except welcome to our pain and plight.

I have plenty of gifts in bank, and enjoy WvW with the exception of few imbalances.  Someone posted a potential solution earlier that would help WvW and PvE players who want to stick with just their mode.  

[obastable.5231]

28 minutes ago, Nidome.1365 said:

 

it appears you have not understood the point being made.

Yes you get participation from defence credit but once you've wiped the attackers most of the time the blob that came to defend runs off to ktrain or whatever they were doing before leaving one or two people to repair the inner and outer of a t3 keep from 10% to 100%.

Unless someone tags the keep while those people are repairing so that they get more defence credit their participation will start to degrade before the keep is fully repaired so they will probably leave the keep half repaired in order to get back their participation.

Very generally speaking from personal experience, I've never played with a group that deliberately left anything unrepaired to spite the people they were playing with. Your supposition they have anything other than a strategic motive sounds sort of like you feel you're being victimized there, which is kind of a strange spin. We've left walls open for tons of reasons, but the primary ones are to defend another objective or to gain a strategic advantage - and yes, leaving a wall open can be a strategic advantage. It not only creates a choke but also acts as a tool for smaller groups to cut a larger group effectively in half. 


If you don't want to repair it yourself, then don't. Other people will do it, either because the reward isn't the goal for them (and let's be honest most WvW'ers aren't there for rewards because historically they are absolute trash) or because the reward of winning the skirmish or matchup gains them more net rewards & pips than briefly losing participation. Also, "probably" anecdotally without any supporting evidence isn't a strong argument.
 

6 minutes ago, Nidome.1365 said:

Something else I noticed last night - I was catting to open the wall of a t2 enemy keep while allies were distracting them elsewhere for me to do it and I noticed that my participation was dropping while I was catting.

 

With all these participation changes it looks like Anet are trying to turn WvW into a boring open field zerg fest.

No, but what they are doing is trying to incentivize more engaging combat scenarios and interactive play. You yourself were not engaged in interactive gameplay, by your own admission you were solo catapulting a wall. You were engaged with a piece of siege and a structure and effectively PvE'ing.  In one comment you reference ktraining disparagingly and in another you seem upset that it isn't rewarding you for personally doing it. I feel like you aren't sure what you want from WvW other than to be rewarded for doing what you want to do and for others to be punished for what you don't want them to do, and what falls in to either category is vague and undefined and probably changes from scenario to scenario.

[obastable.5231]

8 minutes ago, suialthor.7164 said:

I have plenty of gifts in bank, and enjoy WvW with the exception of few imbalances.  Someone posted a potential solution earlier that would help WvW and PvE players who want to stick with just their mode.  

I saw, it would solve one small issue with base legendaries but provides no solution for the ones from expacs, armors (skin difference matters to some), or accessories aside from Conflux. All of those require extensive PvE unassociated with a GoE.

[LSD.4673]

5 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

Actually, was using a treb yesterday to hit anz, and the participation timer refresh was only 2s every hit, while it took me like 5s to fire off the shot, so I started losing participation. So it seems they did change participation with afk sieging too?

 

Funny thing too, I got participation credit for breaking down the wall don't remember if I got wxp, but got nothing for the tower cap that I was late to arrive for lol.

 

 

Undocumented WvW changes -- the gift that keeps on giving!

[ArchonWing.9480]

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The thing that account for 0.0001% of my total participation in a match has been removed WvW IS RUINED!

Quiet, you actually fight other players, you heathen! 🧐

The thing that confuses me the most is it didn't even give (merely refreshed) participation. Also I realized I started at 0 partcipation yesterday due to afk. Takes about 15 min to get it back up.

Usually me and whoever's defending gets up any wall pretty fast (prioritizing outer of course). However, if my server doesn't care about defending, then I think it'd be silly to press the case.  I'm not going to do 100% of the grunt work, pips or no pips. But I'm always willing to help people that want to help.

Now I'm going to admit that I don't care as much since I have Legendary Armor and thus tickets/pips are pretty worthless, but I would never change my behavior over stuff like that lol. Thwarting the enemy is always worth it. And I always complain about rewards.

Edited November 10, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[HazyDaisy.4107]

So the thing you can actually do while legitimately afk still gives participation, albeit minimal, but participation none the less.

 

If ever I saw a "hey look at this hand" moment.  I know we can't go back now, but come on, YOU GUYS KNOW THIS ISNT RIGHT!!!

[Sugar Min.5834]

Hmm.. First ANet nerfed the walls and gates by nerfing all the Tier'ed structures that is T1, 2 and 3. Then they nerfed defence sieges. Now they take away participation credits for repairing those noodle walls and gates? So, clearly ANet is telling us not to defend anything. Ok got it.

PS ANet might as well remove all walls and gates. Less complicated.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Mil.3562

[Bingus.4236]

Pressing F is hardcore gaming, gib rewards.

[Ronin.4501]

On 11/9/2021 at 1:09 PM, Strider Pj.2193 said:

For those talking about repairing not giving participation:  Note that IF a structure is under attack, and you repair a wall, you will get defense credit for the ‘defend event’ thus giving you participation.  
 

Your world will not end..

 

Actually that's incorrect, at least as of an hour ago.  I participated in 3 defense events trying to defend AK 1v3 for about 15 minutes.  I put about 60-100 supply in between inner/outer walls while they were being cata'd and the Defense event timers were active.  Watched my participation drop from T6 to T4 as I got no participation credit from any of the events.

 

Should also point out that I saw a few other bugs take place around the same time, so I have no idea what changes are intended and what "changes" are actually bugs at present.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Yea I noticed the defense event doesn't seem to give any partcipation. I got the WXP from it but no participation.

Edited November 11, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Fenrir.8619]

I personally welcome this change, rewarding participation for repairing walls always lead to bad behaviour in WvW. Sometimes it's not the optiomal strategy to defend a keep by repairing the wall, sometimes is better to use the same amount of supply to disable the enemy siege or maybe build a shield generator. I think this is one step in the right direction to lead players into playing to win.

[Nidome.1365]

7 hours ago, obastable.5231 said:

Very generally speaking from personal experience, I've never played with a group that deliberately left anything unrepaired to spite the people they were playing with. Your supposition they have anything other than a strategic motive sounds sort of like you feel you're being victimized there, which is kind of a strange spin. We've left walls open for tons of reasons, but the primary ones are to defend another objective or to gain a strategic advantage - and yes, leaving a wall open can be a strategic advantage. It not only creates a choke but also acts as a tool for smaller groups to cut a larger group effectively in half. 


If you don't want to repair it yourself, then don't. Other people will do it, either because the reward isn't the goal for them (and let's be honest most WvW'ers aren't there for rewards because historically they are absolute trash) or because the reward of winning the skirmish or matchup gains them more net rewards & pips than briefly losing participation. Also, "probably" anecdotally without any supporting evidence isn't a strong argument.
 

No, but what they are doing is trying to incentivize more engaging combat scenarios and interactive play. You yourself were not engaged in interactive gameplay, by your own admission you were solo catapulting a wall. You were engaged with a piece of siege and a structure and effectively PvE'ing.  In one comment you reference ktraining disparagingly and in another you seem upset that it isn't rewarding you for personally doing it. I feel like you aren't sure what you want from WvW other than to be rewarded for doing what you want to do and for others to be punished for what you don't want them to do, and what falls in to either category is vague and undefined and probably changes from scenario to scenario.

 

I have been playing WvW since launch. I do know what I am talking about and I am aware of strategy and how it had developed over time with the periodic changes to maps etc.

Friendly squad jumps to defend keep on home border because they were doing something elsewhere. They wipe the attackers, possibly pursuing a few that jumped out or a thief trying to hide. When they have finished, depending upon who is commanding the squad and whether something else is under attack they may or may not hang around to repair. Sometimes the squad doesn't jump (or there isn't a squad to jump) and you have to rely upon individuals to come in unknown numbers. This is a hypothetical scenario based upon years of experience in WvW which has certainly occurred multiple times within the past week.
If they don't stay then someone needs to carry out the repairs. I quite often stay to repair, the problem being that the less people repairing (particularly if you are running supply from elsewhere to preserve what is left in the keep) the longer it takes to repair and it is always useful to get as much repairing done and new defensive siege built before the enemy returns. While I'm willing to do this for an extended period, it is sometimes hard to find others willing to help to get it done quicker and with the loss of participation it is now going to be harder to get others to stay to repair which means that it may not get completed before the enemy comes back for another shot.

 

As for my solo catting, based upon your comments you have made assumptions that were not in evidence and even against what I said. I said that allies were deliberately distracting then enemy elsewhere so that the keep could be opened.

I will give to more detail so that you do not misrepresent me again - a previous attempt against the keep had failed due to defenders so the idea was that a majority of people would distract  them by attacking a t3 objective on another border while one or two of us attempted to open the keep and calling back the others when we were close to breaching the inner wall. The other person went to kill inbound dollies and flip the feeding camps while I catted. This was our strategy to recap a home border bay that had been lost before most of our group had logged in.

Having a small group open an objective while others deliberately distract the owning server in another location where you call your allies in time for them to come for the cap is a common WvW strategy when you have similar or lesser numbers than the server you are fighting.

 

My comment about not getting participation from catting was merely sharing the observation that something else had changed with the patch.

These changes certainly do not try to incentivize more engaging combat scenarios and interactive play. Quite the opposite, hence my personal comment.

[Nidome.1365]

1 hour ago, Fenrir.8619 said:

I personally welcome this change, rewarding participation for repairing walls always lead to bad behaviour in WvW. Sometimes it's not the optiomal strategy to defend a keep by repairing the wall, sometimes is better to use the same amount of supply to disable the enemy siege or maybe build a shield generator. I think this is one step in the right direction to lead players into playing to win.

 

We aren't talking about repairing the walls during the defence, but repairing open or damaged walls/gates after the defence is successful. Degrading participation levels is not an incentive for people to stay and repair after a successful defence. If anything they should have expanded repair participation to rebuilding cannons, mortars & oil to encourage people to get the site prepared for the next attack.

[Gorem.8104]

14 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The thing that account for 0.0001% of my total participation in a match has been removed WvW IS RUINED!

 

Why thinking so selfish? Other people play the game differently then you do, the games supposed to be all about different playstyles and how we all play differently. Why would anyone be for WVW becoming the only game mode in the entire game where you have to be told how to play and have to play the "Right" way? 
For some, say scouts and roamers, wall repair is a much higher ratio of their participation. Scouts especially could go hours just on wall repair alone, to make sure something stays safe. Removing an active aspect of the game is bad on all accounts. 

[Gorem.8104]

10 hours ago, Nidome.1365 said:

Something else I noticed last night - I was catting to open the wall of a t2 enemy keep while allies were distracting them elsewhere for me to do it and I noticed that my participation was dropping while I was catting.

 

With all these participation changes it looks like Anet are trying to turn WvW into a boring open field zerg fest.

So they did nerf siege too, they really hate us actually playing wvw don't they. They really want everyone to Zerg K-train. There will soon be no other way to play wvw besides only zerg k-training, pvp will end, why should anyone fight others? whats the point of pvp kills in WvW anymore? Defence is meaningless now, They hate Scouts, they hate Roamers. You will either have to AFK at camps, or AFK with zerg participation. Which is possible. So can't wait for camps to be removed as well since you can "AFK at camps not allowed how dare camps give participation! no more solo camp flipping how dare you play the game outside of zerging!!!"Which is basically what everyone defending this update wants. If you defend this update, you want the game mode to die. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[obastable.5231]

2 hours ago, Nidome.1365 said:

 

I have been playing WvW since launch. I do know what I am talking about and I am aware of strategy and how it had developed over time with the periodic changes to maps etc.

Friendly squad jumps to defend keep on home border because they were doing something elsewhere. They wipe the attackers, possibly pursuing a few that jumped out or a thief trying to hide. When they have finished, depending upon who is commanding the squad and whether something else is under attack they may or may not hang around to repair. Sometimes the squad doesn't jump (or there isn't a squad to jump) and you have to rely upon individuals to come in unknown numbers. This is a hypothetical scenario based upon years of experience in WvW which has certainly occurred multiple times within the past week.
If they don't stay then someone needs to carry out the repairs. I quite often stay to repair, the problem being that the less people repairing (particularly if you are running supply from elsewhere to preserve what is left in the keep) the longer it takes to repair and it is always useful to get as much repairing done and new defensive siege built before the enemy returns. While I'm willing to do this for an extended period, it is sometimes hard to find others willing to help to get it done quicker and with the loss of participation it is now going to be harder to get others to stay to repair which means that it may not get completed before the enemy comes back for another shot.

 

As for my solo catting, based upon your comments you have made assumptions that were not in evidence and even against what I said. I said that allies were deliberately distracting then enemy elsewhere so that the keep could be opened.

I will give to more detail so that you do not misrepresent me again - a previous attempt against the keep had failed due to defenders so the idea was that a majority of people would distract  them by attacking a t3 objective on another border while one or two of us attempted to open the keep and calling back the others when we were close to breaching the inner wall. The other person went to kill inbound dollies and flip the feeding camps while I catted. This was our strategy to recap a home border bay that had been lost before most of our group had logged in.

Having a small group open an objective while others deliberately distract the owning server in another location where you call your allies in time for them to come for the cap is a common WvW strategy when you have similar or lesser numbers than the server you are fighting.

 

My comment about not getting participation from catting was merely sharing the observation that something else had changed with the patch.

These changes certainly do not try to incentivize more engaging combat scenarios and interactive play. Quite the opposite, hence my personal comment.

I don't see how I misinterpreted anything, your expanded explanation still is you PvE'ing a wall down. I'm not sure what you normally do in WvW yourself, I played 3 hours with my Guild tonight and maintained full participation the whole time without having to adjust anything. Walls were broken, walls were repaired, and not a single person complained in map or team chat about any of it. 

[Gorem.8104]

I just did some testing, for scouting and roaming and actually playing wvw its still terrible, but I realised something. if you own smc, its actually got easier to afk to get rewards. As people are repairing less, walls stay damaged for longer, so you can watch a vid and just need to check back every ten minutes on a timer for the defence tick. That's rather hilarious. The entire game mode is so much worse after this update, and afking is easier, GG anet. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

13 hours ago, obastable.5231 said:

No, but what they are doing is trying to incentivize more engaging combat scenarios and interactive play. You yourself were not engaged in interactive gameplay, by your own admission you were solo catapulting a wall. You were engaged with a piece of siege and a structure and effectively PvE'ing.  In one comment you reference ktraining disparagingly and in another you seem upset that it isn't rewarding you for personally doing it. I feel like you aren't sure what you want from WvW other than to be rewarded for doing what you want to do and for others to be punished for what you don't want them to do, and what falls in to either category is vague and undefined and probably changes from scenario to scenario.

 

Wait...what? Someone catting a wall should absolutely reward participation, as a lot of times that is how havoc is done.  Trebbing on the other hand is a different story, because people LOVE to afk treb.  

As a sidenote, if catting a wall is 'PvE'ing' then what exactly is flipping camps? As that's literal PvE if no one comes, right?

Anyway, removing participation for repairing something is about the dumbest thing they could have done.  I say this because to my knowledge you can't afk repair, and repairing is an essential part of WvW....so why remove the participation time gain from it? 

At this point in time, everything defense related is pretty thankless--escorting yaks, repairing, refreshing siege....

Edited November 11, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Gorem.8104]

So, should we post a separate thread for the fact that siege now only gives 2seconds of grace time? Cause its not even diminishing returns, I didn't use a siege, waited for my grace time to hit 0, used a siege to attack a wall, 2seconds. So they nerfed not only gains from defending, scouting, roaming, they also nerfed siege warfare. In the siege warfare mode. lol. 
Does Anet even wvw.

[Fenrir.8619]

8 hours ago, Nidome.1365 said:

 

We aren't talking about repairing the walls during the defence, but repairing open or damaged walls/gates after the defence is successful. Degrading participation levels is not an incentive for people to stay and repair after a successful defence. If anything they should have expanded repair participation to rebuilding cannons, mortars & oil to encourage people to get the site prepared for the next attack.

I have a different opinion on this... After the defense event is over and the enemy is gone what usually happens is that they refill supply and come back for a second try. During this time people have the option to either repair the walls or build strategic siege to repel the attack. If you have only 100 supply you can either top up the wall so it lasts a few more seconds on the next attack or you can build 2 shield generators to stop the catas or you could build a trebuchet to destroy their catas in case they place one. It depends on the situation and if you don't get participation for either choice you will make a decision based on what's best and not what rewards you participation. I agree with you that rewarding players for repairing gives an incentive to put all the walls back to 100% but what people usually do is to just hammer it once every 5 mins, trying to recover as little as possible the walls health so they will always have a source of participation. Overall I think the benefit of this change outweighs the drawbacks.

[DemonSeed.3528]

At least server trolls get to win when they see no one repair walls, and they can just waste supplies with no one caring XD

[Jaidy.1824]

Killing a dolyak doesn't seem to update the participation timer either. I was at 3 mins participation left in T6 and it used to jump to 5 mins after killing a dolyak. Now nothing happened.

[Zyreva.1078]

14 minutes ago, Jaidy.1824 said:

Killing a dolyak doesn't seem to update the participation timer either. I was at 3 mins participation left in T6 and it used to jump to 5 mins after killing a dolyak. Now nothing happened.

Killing dolyaks never granted 5 min. It was and still is 2 min.

Edited November 11, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907