Celestial Specter Build and Discussion - Open World, Fractals, WvW

[Malkarne.8167]

People seemed interested in the Celestial Specter build I mentioned in the feedback thread so I thought I'd post more details in a separate thread. This may not become the Specter meta but I was able to fulfill my goals of:

1) Using one set of armor for the new elite spec (because my templates are filling up and I’m cheap);
2) Being able to perform well in open world (solo everything!), fractals, and WvW – in that order;
3) Being super fun and cool while doing the above.

And after a lot of testing I settled on a Celestial Specter with tormenting runes and Sc/P – D/D in PvE and Sc/P – ???(D/P for now) for WvW. Gw2skills doesn’t have Specter loaded in yet but I made a placeholder to get an idea for numbers: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PaABgqhjjJYdgjt1d7D-zxIY1onvQKICirASPF8eaAx0G-e  (useful for stats/equipment only except MH Scepter of course). Also, if you're using GM3 trait Strength of Shade you'll also get a decent expertise bump from your vitality with celestial, roughly 14-15% additional condi duration. So if you do take that trait you will easily have 100% poison duration along with Torment and ~95% bleed duration on D/D.

 

PvE Open World

Build Picture

This was an absolute blast to play in the overworld, the solo capabilities against hard content is crazy good. If it can be kited all you have to do is spam Sc/P 3 and use your utilities as needed. This will shadowstep and heal you, immobilize your foe, then dump a bunch of torment and slow on them. It’s slow, safe, and steady damage that will also chew through breakbars like nobody’s business. Shroud is used to heal through any accidents you may have with kiting or whatever other incidental damage you take that isn’t offset with all your shadowstep heals.

Mayatl Solo


Champion Mushroom Queen Solo


Note: I solo’d everything with krait runes as I didn’t have access to tormenting on my beta character. So sustain will be even better when it goes live!

If it can’t be kited, you can use D/D to do even more damage! Mix D/D 3 and dodge to constantly evade, use your wells for healing and utility as needed, and when you’re low on initiative and endurance for dodging pop into/out of shroud to regen initiative and for a full heal with barrier! You can also dagger 5 for a stealth break, which along with your stealth attack gives you a decent chunk of barrier!

Champion Avatar of Balthazar Solo


As a bonus, you can also provide excellent support if you join in for group events! You can dump tons of barrier, healing, quickness, and Rot Wallow Venom (torment) on allies to ensure plenty of participation and tagging. Don’t forget that Sc/P 3 will also hit multiple targets in the path of the beam depending on what you have targeted (ally or enemy). One thing on my wish list would be for them to make it so the beam will still have an effect on allies if you have an enemy targeted. So if you’re hitting an enemy and two people are standing between you and the mob you can do damage and provide benefits to them as well. That’s probably not going to happen though…

 

PvE Fractal – Alacrity Support DPS

Why Alacrity and not healer or full DPS?

I’m looking at this through the eyes of someone that PUGs T4/CM fractals and the role where I think a Specter would be most welcome in the standard composition (Healbrand/Alacrity/3xDPS). My first thought was of course playing it as a healer, but that puts you in direct competition with a HB. Now do I think you could replace a HB as a Specter? Absolutely! You provide lots of AoE barrier and heals with your shadowsteps, steals, and shroud. You can also provide perma-quickness with Sc/P, albeit with a little jank due to how it’s targeted. In addition, you can do this while providing permanent alacrity, good breakbar damage, and doing more damage than a HB thanks to Rot Wallow Venom. Honestly I could see a good Specter healer satisfying both the alac and HB role which would allow for another DPS in the group.

But do I think that will be how it works, especially in PUGs? Probably not. People like HBs in PUGs because it allows you to ignore a lot of mechanics, and a lot of that has to do with two buffs specters can’t reliably provide: Aegis and Stability. Also, I think a Specter would have a hell of a time keeping up 25 might on an entire group. Could it be done, especially in sync with other group members? Absolutely! But I don’t see the whole PUG fractal meta changing to accommodate a different type of healer. There are also some reports of crazy DPS output via stacking Rot Wallow Venom on allies (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjDA4W3nYYM). But that’s under ideal targeting conditions and people were also saying Rot Wallow is bugged with the way it was applying. Suffice to say, I don’t think you’ll see those numbers on live due to real-world conditions and fixes/nerfs. Maybe Specter can also fill in for a DPS regardless, but they can also provide Alacrity which is usually a fast pass to a group. So that leaves…

Fractals – The Alacrity Support DPS Build

Build Picture

So you’re not replacing the healer and the outlook for a Specter DPS is uncertain. But you can easily provide permanent alacrity, lots of incidental AoE healing and barrier, and outstanding breakbar capability while also doing comparable condi DPS to a power alacren. To do that you’ll need roughly 50% boon duration to maintain permanent alacrity with those 4 wells. You can get away with less if you fill all utilities with wells, but I think you’d lose damage and utility overall if you go with a different elite for that. Thieves guild is nice but with a long cooldown, and you don’t need Basilisk venom for breakbar between Shadowfall, Well of Sorrow, and Sc/P 3. I think your alac rotation will have a great flow in fractals too, as you’ll want to start with the highest CD ability and work your way down. So you’ll engage a group with Shadowfall to stack them tighter, then lay down Well of Silence to pulse stun and Well of Sorrow/Bounty to pulse boons or conditions. Then end with Well of Gloom to start some AoE healing as the pulsing daze from Silence ends and your group starts taking more damage from whatever may be left alive. Neat!

For gearing considerations, you also benefit your group with healing/barrier, but you want to be able to provide decent DPS to fill the alacren’s slot. Plague doctor sounds good, but it doesn’t have any expertise which is a massive damage hit. The heavy vitality would add to your damage if you take Strength of Shadows GM, but the extra barrier and rez on steal from Shadestep seems too good to pass up for group utility. That leaves Celestial, which imo provides the best bang-for-the buck between healing, damage, and some free survivability. It’s also great for open world and WvW too so that’s convenient! If they ever put in a pure condition damage equivalent to diviner that’d be the best, but even then I think you’d get by ok with celestial since it’ll still buff your healing/barrier output.

Note that I tested my condi DPS with D/D alone, so this isn’t even accounting for Rot Wallow’s potential DPS using allies. If that comes through even mostly intact on live then Specter Alacrity DPS will blow alacren out of the water. Regardless, even doing damage the “traditional” way with D/D I estimate you’ll top off at ~18-20k on a standard golem setup using celestial gear and leaning towards group support traits. I only hit ~16.5k on live but I also didn’t have ascended weapons and gear so there was a significant stat loss because of that. If buffing your allies with Rot Wallow becomes the way to DPS as a Specter then you’re already set up for that with 100% torment duration thanks to the runes. You’ll also get some steady healing from them thanks to your allies, which will offset the barrier you’ll be dumping on your allies as you shadowstep around constantly.

Now will people want this over an alacren? Yes, I think they will in most circumstances and honestly either should be acceptable no matter what. While your burst damage is definitely lower, you also provide lots of barrier and healing with comparable DPS. So you’ll have some utility to offset the lack of burst. Will it suck for burning anomalies on CM Arkk? Probably, you may need to let your DPS know to target that for you. But you’ll also be really helpful with barrier and support for things like Skorvald’s burn phase and you’ll be overall better where condi is strong like CM100.

WvW Specter

Build Picture

It was the best of roaming builds, it was the worst of roaming builds. At least that was my experience, and this is also one I never quite got to 100% of where I wanted it before the beta ended. It absolutely rocks in small groups providing support with Sc/P and it also completely, utterly destroys non-thief melee and you can easily clear camps too. I thought I just got lucky (and maybe I did) but after a while I started thinking maybe Sc/P is just that good at shutting down melee. You are always, always shadowstepping which constantly heals you. You’re constantly hitting them with immobilize, slow, and torment. And if they do manage to land some burst on you, you just go into shroud and reset your health bar with barrier on top. It almost felt dirty.

Started as a 1v2, ended as an escape


Specter Bros!


Now the bad part is Sc/P seems to be hard-countered by other thieves, especially deadeye. It’s a slow cast so they can easily break or stealth out of the channel. It’s not bursty at all so you’ll have a hard time landing enough damage while they’re out of stealth. There are also problems against other bursty ranged characters a la rangers. They’re more than happy to kite you and have a better range so you’re actually helping them shadowstepping back with Sc/P 3. This requires another weapon to offset the weakness and I didn’t manage to find one I was completely happy with. I settled on D/P simply so I could stealth and run away, or at least break targeting in a group fight to keep healing my group. D/D might work but you don’t have a spammable gap closer if your shadowsteps are on cooldown and you have to land a hit for stealth.

I felt at a big disadvantage if I couldn’t control the range. And you know what, maybe that’s ok. You can’t do everything with one spec and weapon set, right? Thieves already have all-around great solo roaming builds, I’m actually fine with this even if it ends up being more rock/paper/scissors when roaming. I can still stealth up and run away! I heard Sc/D with D/D or Sb was really good so maybe you can do that to be more well-rounded. Or maybe there’s a build with tactics that makes Sc/P work well enough with some combination I haven’t thought of. I only dabble in WvW so I’m interested to see what other people come up with!

That’s all I got, thanks for coming to my TED talk

RIP Beta Specter Man and Thanks for the Fun!

Edited November 12, 2021 by Malkarne.8167
Broken Links

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

I love my celestial deadeye so I've already reserved a build slot for celestial specter, and I'm glad to see it's stronger than I thought. Seriously, I cannot wait for the expac now xD

[Zacchary.6183]

Now if only gw2skills could update and add the final three specs, that'd be great.

[AikijinX.6258]

Great demonstration of Specter Cele Gameplay. Pretty Cool! However since Anet is steering us back into a sustainy tank meta I feel as though Physical Power damage needs to be increased again. The rate of TTK (time to kill) will be abysmal come EoD. Anet has  pushed the narrative already just by changing that Instant Level 80 new player starter gear, from PVT to Celestial. We are driving towards a TTK that will start to become cumbersome if we don't increase Power damage. 

Disagree with me all you want and emote the "confused" or "crying" emoji but this is how I see it going if power damage coefficients aren't re-evaluated.

Edited November 13, 2021 by AikijinX.6258

[Zacchary.6183]

2 minutes ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Great demonstration of Specter Cele Gameplay. Pretty Cool! However since Anet is steering this meta back into a sustainy tank meta I feel as though Physical Power damage needs to be increased again. The rate of TTK (time to kill) will be abysmal come EoD. Anet has  pushed the narrative already just by changing that Instant Level 80 new player starter gear, from PVT to Celestial. We are driving towards a TTK that will start to become cumbersome if we don't increase Power damage. 

Disagree with me all you want and emote the "confused" or "crying" emoji but this is how I see it going if power damage coefficients aren't re-evaluated.

As long as they do not nerf my precious Consuming Shadows. 

[AikijinX.6258]

14 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

As long as they do not nerf my precious Consuming Shadows. 

Yeah I hope they do not nerf or touch consuming shadows. It's great in it's current iteration. 

I hope they don't touch our Shroud 5 Self Stability and Stun. I love that we have access to an actual stun again, like we used to have on OG Deadeye Middle trait called 'Unforgiving' But they removed it without reason, 0 reason at all. But yes, I'm glad we have access to stun again which is super strong in it's current iteration since we can move with it,  on top of it being stability.

[kash.9213]

14 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Yeah I hope they do not nerf or touch consuming shadows. It's great in it's current iteration. 

I hope they don't touch our Shroud 5 Self Stability and Stun. I love that we have access to an actual stun again, like we used to have on OG Deadeye Middle trait called 'Unforgiving' But they removed it without reason, 0 reason at all. But yes, I'm glad we have access to stun again which is super strong in it's current iteration since we can move with it,  on top of it being stability.

Not having any kind of stoppage on that helped to keep up with people to cover.

Consuming Shadows is also the payoff to a deliberate and telegraphed sequence of actions. Hopefully it becomes a known factor that other players will want to get ahead of and then we can use to force something out. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by kash.9213

[AikijinX.6258]

57 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Not having any kind of stoppage on that helped to keep up with people to cover.

Consuming Shadows is also the payoff to a deliberate and telegraphed sequence of actions. Hopefully it becomes a known factor that other players will want to get ahead of and then we can use to force something out. 

Stoppage on what 😮 ?
 

And consume shadows all I’m saying is they better not nerf or touch it in its current iteration. It’s doing what’ it’s intended to do. As people say it’s hard enough already to generate shadow force when you’re out of it (I don’t really think that but meh) so it’s a good trade off. You get a nice healthy trade off. I just hope they don’t nerf it and require like healing power or something along those lines to be tied with the trait to be as effective as it is currently in its current state.  Because as it is right now, you don’t need any healing power to be an effective support on specter and I’m okay with that.

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

Stoppage on what 😮 ?
 

And consume shadows all I’m saying is they better not nerf or touch it in its current iteration. It’s doing what’ it’s intended to do. As people say it’s hard enough already to generate shadow force when you’re out of it (I don’t really think that but meh) so it’s a good trade off. You get a nice healthy trade off. I just hope they don’t nerf it and require like healing power or something along those lines to be tied with the trait to be as effective as it is currently in its current state.  Because as it is right now, you don’t need any healing power to be an effective support on specter and I’m okay with that.

You mentioned you can keep moving. I agree, it's nice not having anything to trip that up so we can stay on top of our target. 

I also agree about Consume Shadows, being deliberate and telegraphed but still strong if rolled out with some thought is fair and shouldn't be at all problematic for anyone. Just have to hope it doesn't get changed as consequence of some other change.

Edited November 13, 2021 by kash.9213

[Zacchary.6183]

7 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

(I don’t really think that but meh)

Siphon already gives a good chunk of force and Traversing Dusk works on all Shadowsteps. Support would actually be much better with Sword than Scepter for generating force in a group. Though scepter has better boon access. I'm calling s/x support Wells and TD "Zoomies" btw. And yes, charr race is a requirement.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

20 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Siphon already gives a good chunk of force and Traversing Dusk works on all Shadowsteps. Support would actually be much better with Sword than Scepter for generating force in a group. Though scepter has better boon access. I'm calling s/x support Wells and TD "Zoomies" btw. And yes, charr race is a requirement.

My main is sylvari, can I call it shroomies?

[Zacchary.6183]

2 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

My main is sylvari, can I call it shroomies?

Sure, but you need mushroom hair.