Sobx.1758 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Pati.2438 said: @mythical.6315 not exactly but get kicked cause you have idk 10 mats left to reach the 250 mark is it. Or kicked cause of one mechanic mistake is absolutly toxic and thats litterly what they do. Things like that are literally NOT happening in majority of squads. 2 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirogen.9561 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 59 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said: Do you feel that companies with job requirements are toxic? Do you feel that companies who enforce those requirements and subsequently let go those who fail to meet their standards as toxic? Companies are not toxic. But this is suppose to be a game, not a RL job. Anyway, its why raids have a problem. Maybe people don't want another job. 5 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythical.6315 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Pirogen.9561 said: Companies are not toxic. But this is suppose to be a game, not a RL job. Anyway, its why raids have a problem. Maybe people don't want another job. You missed the point I was making in my post. You’re too busy focusing on how the example is different than what my point was. You say that it’s toxic to have LFG listings with requirements, and players who enforce them in their own groups, which is no different than job postings. Yes, this is not a job but you have no right to dictate how players can or cannot do with groups that they created and it’s toxic AF to ridicule them and even try to take their ability to choose who to play with away from them. Edited November 14, 2021 by mythical.6315 3 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 6 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said: Where did you get the idea that a good percentage of players raid? Because it seems to contradict what a dev stated. Tbf, early Raids, especially W1-3 when Anet released a Raid Wing every 3-4 Months, actually had almost shockingly good (GW2E) numbers, considering it's inherently niche content that in turn provides vastly greater player retention compared to for example the greatly more accessible but largely once and done Story content. It's mainly when Anet slowed down the release schedule of Raids to 7-10 months, due to moving Raid devs to LW teams and other game projects, that the player base fell off drastically. Especially after Wing 4 was too easy for the average Raider and then Wing 5 too hard, in a way that meant some (the majority of) players had to wait 2 years for a new Raid wing to sink their teeth into and have fun with replaying weekly between the release of Wing 3 and 6. During all of that time waiting after every Wing released, we never had communication from Anet if there ever even was going to be another one after it - until eventually, there wasn't, again without any comment by Anet about the future of the content. That left players (both veteran Raiders as well as prospective new ones wondering whether to get into the content/pick up GW2 for raiding) in complete uncertainty if there ever even was going to be more for months to years of waiting for new content. So the problem of Raids was neither that they didn't attract an initial player base, nor that they turned out to be bad content people didn't want to play - quite the opposite. The problem was that there simple wasn't enough of it with no communication about it's future, causing people to burn out and quit/jump ship to competitors - with arguably worse products but better content pipelines. It's kind of silly to not support content (releasing ~2h of Raid content in the last 4 years when Anet made that comment about Raids having low population), and then wonder why barely anyone plays it anymore, and then use that as further justification to not make more of it. You can't put one decent rollercoaster in your park known for it's Ferris Wheels, Carousels, Kiddie Rides and Teacups, and then wonder that it's not attracting a big rollercoaster crowd* - you have to build it for people to come. *Now ofc that's fine if you are doing well without that, but there is a reason Anet tried Raids with HoT, there is a reason revenue dropped to record lows during the Icebrood story content only era, and there is a reason they are now trying to salvage things with Strike CM's again. It's seems pretty clear not only that there is an audience, but also that it's one they want and need. 1 7 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said: Tbf, early Raids, especially W1-3 when Anet released a Raid Wing every 3-4 Months, actually had almost shockingly good (GW2E) numbers, considering it's inherently niche content that in turn provides vastly greater player retention compared to for example the greatly more accessible but largely once and done Story content. It's mainly when Anet slowed down the release schedule of Raids to 7-10 months, due to moving Raid devs to LW teams and other game projects, that the player base fell off drastically. Especially after Wing 4 was too easy for the average Raider and then Wing 5 too hard, in a way that meant some (the majority of) players had to wait 2 years for a new Raid wing to sink their teeth into and have fun with replaying weekly between the release of Wing 3 and 6. During all of that time waiting after every Wing released, we never had communication from Anet if there ever even was going to be another one after it - until eventually, there wasn't, again without any comment by Anet about the future of the content. That left players (both veteran Raiders as well as prospective new ones wondering whether to get into the content/pick up GW2 for raiding) in complete uncertainty if there ever even was going to be more for months to years of waiting for new content. So the problem of Raids was neither that they didn't attract an initial player base, nor that they turned out to be bad content people didn't want to play - quite the opposite. The problem was that there simple wasn't enough of it with no communication about it's future, causing people to burn out and quit/jump ship to competitors - with arguably worse products but better content pipelines. It's kind of silly to not support content (releasing ~2h of Raid content in the last 4 years when Anet made that comment about Raids having low population), and then wonder why barely anyone plays it anymore, and then use that as further justification to not make more of it. You can't put one decent rollercoaster in your park known for it's Ferris Wheels, Carousels, Kiddie Rides and Teacups, and then wonder that it's not attracting a big rollercoaster crowd* - you have to build it for people to come. *Now ofc that's fine if you are doing well without that, but there is a reason Anet tried Raids with HoT, there is a reason revenue dropped to record lows during the Icebrood story content only era, and there is a reason they are now trying to salvage things with Strike CM's again. It's seems pretty clear not only that there is an audience, but also that it's one they want and need. Equating raids to why Anet wasn't doing well during the Icebrood Saga is even worse than confirmation bias. In the months that followed the release of HoT we only got raids and the quarterly numbers plummeted. Anet "fixed" HoT by throwing a bone to casual people because they had to. Raids slowed down because the largest percentage of the playerbase was casual. This should come as no surprise because the bulk of the game was casual, there was very little hard core end game and as a result,. the game attracted a lot of casuals. You can believe, if you like, that somehow hard core raids made sales of this game better, but actual evidence doesn't really support this. If it did, we'd see more raids. If I owned a restaurant and knew that 90% of the people who came ordered beef, I'd make sure I had a lot of beef dishes. If Anet supported raids less, then their internal numbers probably showed something that your perceptions don't agree with. There were many many reasons that IBS lost people. One of the biggest was that at one point, Anet started pushing strike missions as part of the mix you needed to get the zone meta. I (and others) complained about it, and as a result, it was changed so that a strike mission was never again required to get the zone meta. But the damage had been done. In addition to requiring people to do strikes to get the zone meta, getting those metas became more and more grindy. This actually started in Dragonfall, but took on even more prominence in HoT. Kill 100 devourer burrows. Do each light puzzle 4 times. That sort of thing. You can believe sales fell due to raids. I believe sales fell because the stuff that would have kept people playing (particularly after Grothmar), wasn't compelling. The first time I failed to get a zone meta was in Bjora, and I tell you this...I despised strike missions because of that. Now I do strike missions, the 3 easy ones anyway, because I don't have to. But when I was forced to, I avoided that zone. In fact, Bjora for several reasons remains one of my least favorite zones and having two installments in a row in it killed some of my enthusiasm for the game. Casual players don't want to be "encouraged" to play harder core content and many of us felt our game was being taken away from us by this push to harder core content. It's not what we wanted. I'm sure some hard core people were unhappy as well, but I'm relatively sure it was casual people who brought those sales down. If you look you can find the threads where I argued against the zone meta issues. Others commented on the grindiness of the zone meta achievements. There's no way you can know that the bottom line of the game was affected by not having raids in the game. You can only know that raid development slowed and numbers went down. The problem with your thought process is that you're not taking into account that other changes were going on at the same time. Changes that affected far more people than the number of people raiding. 5 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 @Vayne.8563 Of course it wasn't just Raids. MMO's thrive on providing multitudes of content in a shared world and progression, appealing to a variety of audiences and cross pollinating them. GW2 needs story and casual solo and large scale open world content, I needs Guild Systems and casual group content, it needs PvP, it needs WvW, it needs hardcore group content. There is a reason MMO design evolved to those forms. They all serve a purpose. An MMO will never compete with LoL or Dota, Witcher 3 or Skyrim etc. in any one niche like PvP or PvE, etc. - but what makes MMO's special is to have tastes of those experiences together in a shared world and shared account progression with all those multiplayer systems and social constructs within. The post-HoT content draught save for Raids wasn't much better for the game than the post-PoF/Season 4 content draught save for Story and OW updates - affected demographics aside - the main difference being the duration of which, and that group content like Raids is more unique to and a strength of the MMO genre, especially with a combat system as good as GW2, while Story content is not whatsoever. If you care for the game, it's growth and longevity, it's in your best interest to champion all those content types. 1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said: If I owned a restaurant and knew that 90% of the people who came ordered beef, I'd make sure I had a lot of beef dishes. The problem is that Anet, in your analogy, is a restaurant where >90% of it's dishes offered are just beef, and business isn't booming while people are going across the street to eat at Final Food Fantasy and co., offering a variety of dishes. So maybe diversifying isn't the worst idea, even if your statistics tell you indeed, most of your remaining customers, surprisingly considering your menu, order beef at your place. 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said: If you care for the game, it's growth and longevity, it's in your best interest to champion all those content types. Well, had Anet took an extra step to provide difficulty setting to raids, so it was more attractive to a wider audience and players of all skill levels, then raid development probably wouldn't have been flushed. But the cool part is that all those players who opposed difficulty settings can eat their crow and we don't have to deal with profession balancing being tailored to raids anymore. Edited November 14, 2021 by Swagger.1459 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 14, 2021 Share Posted November 14, 2021 35 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said: @Vayne.8563 Of course it wasn't just Raids. MMO's thrive on providing multitudes of content in a shared world and progression, appealing to a variety of audiences and cross pollinating them. GW2 needs story and casual solo and large scale open world content, I needs Guild Systems and casual group content, it needs PvP, it needs WvW, it needs hardcore group content. There is a reason MMO design evolved to those forms. They all serve a purpose. An MMO will never compete with LoL or Dota, Witcher 3 or Skyrim etc. in any one niche like PvP or PvE, etc. - but what makes MMO's special is to have tastes of those experiences together in a shared world and shared account progression with all those multiplayer systems and social constructs within. The post-HoT content draught save for Raids wasn't much better for the game than the post-PoF/Season 4 content draught save for Story and OW updates - affected demographics aside - the main difference being the duration of which, and that group content like Raids is more unique to and a strength of the MMO genre, especially with a combat system as good as GW2, while Story content is not whatsoever. If you care for the game, it's growth and longevity, it's in your best interest to champion all those content types. The problem is that Anet, in your analogy, is a restaurant where >90% of it's dishes offered are just beef, and business isn't booming while people are going across the street to eat at Final Food Fantasy and co., offering a variety of dishes. So maybe diversifying isn't the worst idea, even if your statistics tell you indeed, most of your remaining customers, surprisingly considering your menu, order beef at your place. See this is where we disagree. Diversification is fine, if you don't kitten off your core constituents. Vegetarian restaurants cant' diverify into meat dishes, they'd lose customers. This is precisely what happened with HoT. Heart of Thorns was too difficult for the largely casual playerbase. Add raids as the main visible PvE content for the next 9 months and you lose your casual audience. But then they did something which was here's legendary armor for PvE, but you have to raid to get it. That disenfranchised players like me, who didn't like or want to raid. It's not that you can't have rewards like skins that are specifically linked to raids, but putting something like legendary armor behind raids gives a false impression of how many like them. Many people paid to get legendary armor, by paying people to run them through raids. Others were simply carried. Many got their legendary armor and never raided again. This COULD indicate that raids weren't that popular but legendary armor was. Diversity can be good if I didn't personally feel disenfranchised by the way some rewards I my want are given only to raiders. Now some people will say do the content, get the reward. that's how it works, so sad, too bad. But the point is I bought a game that didn't require me to raid for 3.5 years and I could get every type of reward. I could get legendary weapons, because there were no raids. I couldn't get every skin, but there was no one type of items I couldn't get playing the way I played. HOT added stuff that changed the game for me. I was no longer a guy that could have all the rewards I would have liked. I was a guy who had to settle. This made the game less mine. Some people had a stronger reaction than I did, saw this as a sign that Anet was favoring hard core content and left the game, never to return. Sure diversity is great. But how many PvE'ers are forcing themselves into PvP and WvW to get legendary armor (I know a bunch of them and I"m one myself), when we'd rather have another way to get legendary armor besides something we don't only not want to do, but wasn't in the game when we bought it for for 3.5 years afterwards. A vegetarian would prefer to eat at a wholly vegetarian restaurant, because they identify with it. Changing the game so that your largely casual player base feels the game less suits them personally is a bad move, diversity or not. 6 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 (edited) Yep raids are dead and now abandoned content in favour of strike missions, thanks largely to the elitism and gatekeeping some raiders perpetuated to maintain their elitist meta build culture over the content. I and others have warned for a long time that this would happen eventually if they actively bullied people away from the content who didn't want to comply with the afore mentioned "meta culture" that is so dominant in the raid community and all we got was the usual BS about "not wanting to learn to play" and all that strawman garbage. The vast majority of GW2's playerbase are casual players who want to enjoy the game in their own way, they have very little patience for people who berate at them about "playing the game wrong" and this has been consistent in Gw2's group content ever since the game came out. We saw it in dungeons and fractals once upon a time, and the whole gatekeeping thing with raids and to a lesser degree strike missions is just the modern variant of that. Raids can be beaten by under leveled core spec characters in rare gear, they can be beaten by players using purely auto attacks, they can even be beaten by a motley crew of average skill players using mediocre inefficient builds! These are facts, it has been done and proven. All you really need to be able to beat any raid is to be familiar with the mechanics of that raid fight, and that you can only get with regular hands on experience and that is what has ultimately been denied to many players over the years because they don't want to play the best DPS meta builds that raiders demand they do aka they "don't want to learn how to play the game" according to the elitist raiders. So many people tried to get into raiding by whatever means they could, they had negative after negative experience with other players there and they simply said "screw this" and left. And raids got stuck with a pitifully small playerbase as a result which only continued to diminish over time until Anet finally said "screw this, lets do something else" and give up on raids as well. So raids are dead now.. and the truly sad part is that most of us don't even care enough anymore to want to save it at this point. Raiders some not all, largely contributed to this outcome so there is nobody else to blame for it. So if you've ever been one of those people who has berated someone out of your raid group for petty reasons like "you're using the wrong build for this content" or "your DPS doesn't meet my personal expectations" or accused others of "not wanting to learn how to play the game" when they've clearly expressed their desire to play the content in the way that they would enjoy it which is everybody's kitten right to do! then you are part of that elitist raider problem that helped kill this content. Considering you're the one that actually does play and enjoys this content then you're the ones who ultimately loose out most that it has now been abandoned. The rest of us, the people who could have potentially saved this content by boosting the playerbase of it, we just don't care about the content enough anymore to give a kitten, and that's largely on you too. Should this same problem also end up becoming more dominant in strike missions going forward, well you can expect the same thing that happened to raids to also happen to strikes as well, so do keep that in mind if you want more of and enjoy this kind of harder content in Gw2. Also fyi, if you're just going to reply to this comment with "you just don't want to learn how to play" type arguments, please just don't bother. I've been having those same pointless and dismissive talking to a wall arguments on here for years and I just can't be bothered to reply to them anymore. They waste my time and yours so just don't bother for both our sakes. Edited November 15, 2021 by Teratus.2859 5 1 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 10 hours ago, Mizuira.8245 said: Give the community some raids, at least 2 per year and you will see players doing it. But we are talking about ArenaNet, they were more than 300 people and unable to do something more than some stories missions and open PvE events. I don't even know how it is possible to be that much and never been able to add dungeons, fractals, raids, PvP modes, etc at a regular rythm... 😅 Well can't say for sure on the staff numbers but back in the early days of the game I expect they didn't have as much as they did before the layoffs. There were all sorts of things missing from the game back then too, systems that hadn't been developed yet and they were constantly experimenting and improving the game here and there, trying new things etc. LW1 i've often claimed was like a giant experiment season where the devs were testing various things to see what they could and couldn't do with the game. Many of us have fond memories of the early days of LW1 as completely broken and unplayable content because of how crazy ambitious some of these events were. When the Karka invaded Lions Arch I distinctly remember the whole game lagging severely, then the map filled up with pink masses before the game went into stop motion because the lag was so bad. Then I remember the map instantly filling with downed and dead icons and the chat filling with XD's, variants of lol, OMG and wtf's and then my character went instantly to dead and then my game completely crashed and I couldn't log back in for several minutes lmao Missed the whole event because of that, as did many players suffer similar experiences, it was a total disaster lol but none the less hilarious and memorable because of it. It's clear they learned and adapted over the years, newer living world significantly improved over time as a result and we do know that multiple teams work on different releases of LW content so they had a lot of people working on different episodes of living world at the same time, this is basically how they managed to get them out in a reasonable time frame, not to mention how we were treated with entire seasons that give us whole new maps and tons of stuff to do in them with every single release which was pretty kitten awesome. Prior to the layoffs there were indeed a lot of staff at Anet but we also know that a good bulk of them were not working on Gw2, they and a significant amount of the company's resources were allocated to additional side projects that we know very little about, all of which to our knowledge were later cancelled and abandoned, so this is why Gw2 did not see the kind of "be that much but not be able to" thing you were talking about. I sometimes wonder what Gw2 would be today had all those devs and those resources been focused entirely on Gw2 instead of wasted on those cancelled side projects. Specially since the result of that and the layoffs was the finale of the Ice Brood Saga which is easily among the most disappointing and most criticized living world content ever added to the game. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 @Vayne.8563 And yet, even after years of GW2 actively pushing it's hardcore players away, HoT consistently ranks favourably in community polls about the best expansion/time for the game, getting praise for it's challenging, engaging, repeatable and diverse content. And it's not like I'm not empathetic to your blight about not getting rewards and such, but what you may not realise is that everybody faces that, no matter what game mode you are into - or do you think mainly PvP'ers, WvW'ers or hardcore PvE's enjoy forcing themselves into the monumental and to them mindbogglingly boring OW grinds for the majority of rewards ingame? Including often touted as "Raid rewards" things like PvE Legendary Armor or Coalescence. Everybody feels that "disenfranchisement" you describe, and I bet you PvP'ers, WvW'ers and hardcore PvE'ers much, much more so than casual OW and Story players. If you believe the game became "less yours" with HoT, ask around in other communities how they feel about the last ~5 years. I was one of those very casual, almost exclusively solo, OW players from launch up until way after HoT, suffering the HoT content draught, thinking I'd be forever barred from getting something like Legendary Armor, being afraid of DPS Meter's, not understanding KP/LI gating, being convinced by the community that Raids are this ultra hard content with a toxic and competitive community I'd never join, enjoy or be able to complete. It's not like I haven't experienced the other side and that I don't get it. In fact, pretty much all sides, considering since launch I've been all a exclusive casual solo OW PvE'er for years, a WvW'er, a Raider/instanced PvE'er and a PvP'er - back to a more casual solo player (with some instanced PvE), as that's all the game offered. But experiencing all those view point's over the last decade with the game allows me to have a more differentiated view of the game, beyond my part or perceived ownership of it - and I don't want to just see "my gamemode" thrive, even if it kills the game longterm. Each of these modes needs attention, but currently the game is in desperate need for social and group content, both casual and hardcore. It's in desperate need of updates of it's social systems like guilds. It's in desperate need of pushing fairly unique parts of it's appeal like WvW forward - and luckily it seems ArenaNet finally realised at least some of those aspects as well, even if it may be a few years late. Everbody who loves this game felt some disenfranchisement and competition over content and rewards over the years, especially when Anet diverted it's resources to other projects on the brink of likely leaving GW2 behind - if it had not been for their cancellations, the following mass layoffs and a refocus on GW2 and following EoD announcement, but man does this community need to stop antagonising and eating itself. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said: @Vayne.8563 And yet, even after years of GW2 actively pushing it's hardcore players away, HoT consistently ranks favourably in community polls about the best expansion/time for the game, getting praise for it's challenging, engaging, repeatable and diverse content. And it's not like I'm not empathetic to your blight about not getting rewards and such, but what you may not realise is that everybody faces that, no matter what game mode you are into - or do you think mainly PvP'ers, WvW'ers or hardcore PvE's enjoy forcing themselves into the monumental and to them mindbogglingly boring OW grinds for the majority of rewards ingame? Including often touted as "Raid rewards" things like PvE Legendary Armor or Coalescence. Everybody feels that "disenfranchisement" you describe, and I bet you PvP'ers, WvW'ers and hardcore PvE'ers much, much more so than casual OW and Story players. If you believe the game became "less yours" with HoT, ask around in other communities how they feel about the last ~5 years. I was one of those very casual, almost exclusively solo, OW players from launch up until way after HoT, suffering the HoT content draught, thinking I'd be forever barred from getting something like Legendary Armor, being afraid of DPS Meter's, not understanding KP/LI gating, being convinced by the community that Raids are this ultra hard content with a toxic and competitive community I'd never join, enjoy or be able to complete. It's not like I haven't experienced the other side and that I don't get it. In fact, pretty much all sides, considering since launch I've been all a exclusive casual solo OW PvE'er for years, a WvW'er, a Raider/instanced PvE'er and a PvP'er - back to a more casual solo player (with some instanced PvE), as that's all the game offered. But experiencing all those view point's over the last decade with the game allows me to have a more differentiated view of the game, beyond my part or perceived ownership of it - and I don't want to just see "my gamemode" thrive, even if it kills the game longterm. Each of these modes needs attention, but currently the game is in desperate need for social and group content, both casual and hardcore. It's in desperate need of updates of it's social systems like guilds. It's in desperate need of pushing fairly unique parts of it's appeal like WvW forward - and luckily it seems ArenaNet finally realised at least some of those aspects as well, even if it may be a few years late. Everbody who loves this game felt some disenfranchisement and competition over content and rewards over the years, especially when Anet diverted it's resources to other projects on the brink of likely leaving GW2 behind - if it had not been for their cancellations, the following mass layoffs and a refocus on GW2 and following EoD announcement, but man does this community need to stop antagonising and eating itself. Well, your hardcore raids failed to attract enough players and the devs decided to not throw money away. Lesson learned. 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said: @Vayne.8563 And yet, even after years of GW2 actively pushing it's hardcore players away, HoT consistently ranks favourably in community polls about the best expansion/time for the game, getting praise for it's challenging, engaging, repeatable and diverse content. Back when it released there were mass complaints about it, largely the challenging difficulty of the content which personally I always found funny. Hot was designed to counter the existing meta of the time which was basically the stack and smack with melee glass canons approach that had become the go to for many players both in the open world content and in Dungeons. This is mainly why so many enemies in HoT were just health sponges with high damage and AoE, they would eradicate groups of melee glass canons trying to stack and smack them which really annoyed those kinds of players who instantly started calling for nerfs xD And they did get some. But those of us who made builds that focused on support, tanky builds and ranged play, we never really had any trouble with HoT content. Generally I do agree though, HoT even though it didn't give us as much playable content as we'd hoped, it did give us quality content that was very fun and what we wanted in a Gw2 expansion, and it remains as so to this day, even if it has become significantly easier over the years as a result of powercreep etc. 1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said: @Vayne.8563 Each of these modes needs attention, but currently the game is in desperate need for social and group content, both casual and hardcore. It's in desperate need of updates of it's social systems like guilds. It's in desperate need of pushing fairly unique parts of it's appeal like WvW forward - and luckily it seems ArenaNet finally realised at least some of those aspects as well, even if it may be a few years late. I agree with this as well, i've long wished and asked for more Guild based content as well as other community based content as well. Like the Orders of Tyria for example, how on Melandru's green Tyria did Anet never utilise the Orders into communities of players based on which order they chose. We could have had something similar to Guild missions, Bounties, World boss events and other things tied into the Orders. The orders could have functioned like 3 giant factions that would provide daily goals, rewards and missions based on the faction you chose and they could have rewarded you faction specific reputation for completing them that would allow you to rank up similarly to WvW reward tracks. Vigil Players could organise Vigil bounties, spawning powerful unique legendary creatures or specific world bosses on various maps that everyone could kill for additional daily locked loot but only Vigil players would be able to spawn them and earn reputation for killing them. They could also get lesser daily bounties that challenge them to hunt and kill a specific champ creature in a random map, earning bonus loot and reputation for doing so. Priory players could organise Guild mission rush/puzzle style excavations into various ruins, jumping puzzles and mini dungeons which would greatly improve the loot quality of the chests you get at the end for all players participating but only once per day per player and only Priory players would get faction reputation for completing them. They could also get Fetch Quests, make deliveries and pickups to random Priory NPC's out in the world for some extra loot and reputation. Whispers players similarly to Guild Challenge Missions could trigger unique Whispers themed events but on the world map that all could earn daily locked rewards from but only Whispers agents would gain reputation for. These could be protecting an important NPC/creature, a gathering event or something akin to some of the early game hearts where you sneak into a bandit camp and poison food, steal suppliers and destroy key information etc. They could also be sent on solo missions to steal important documents, items and relics from many of this games random buildings. I mean have you seen how many houses and things you can go inside and explore in this game? but how often do you actually ever need to? This would be an excellent way to utilise them in the open world in my opinion. And another fun one would be assassinations! have Whispers players tasked with killing a random nameless NPC in the game that they would have to kill without being seen by running up behind them while the NPC is alone and triggering the assassination proc and running away. If each of the Orders had stuff like this to do for daily rewards they would be massively improved in my opinion and it would make our choices on what order to join on what characters feel far more worth it. And with the reputation system Anet could add things like new titles, Elite variants of Order Weapons and Armour along with outfit skins of these order armours that are only obtainable this way, allow you to upgrade your Ascended Order Backpacks into Legendary variants, access to unique Order themed GH decorations and unique dye colours that would become available over time as you rank up with each faction. Our faction rank with each order would be account bound and could also offer us additional perks like more bonus loot when completing faction based events, bonus damage or protection against faction based event creatures, and when maxed out each faction could maybe add a small increase to our account bonuses. Whispers giving a permanent +1 to Experience gain and +10 to gold find. Vigil giving a permanent +1 to Experience gain and +10 to Karma gain. Priory giving a permanent +1 to Experience gain and +10 to Magic Find. On top of that I think that Gw2 also needs to have more 5 man group content as well. More fractals AND! more dungeon content with varying degrees of difficulty and challenge. If you ask me 5 man balanced content in Gw2 should be the very first stepping stone for players in group content and there should be far more of it. Everything you learn about enemy and class mechanics in 5 man content as well as group play should be easily applicable to 10 man content as well with the only difference being you now have more people to carry 😉 jk. I think we need proper new and harder dungeons with bosses that will give players a taste of what to expect in new strike missions, they can even rehash some of the same dungeon bosses as strike missions giving you harder 10 man balanced variants of them and then go even further than that by adding challenge modes. And to top that off I also think we should on rare occasions also get a big, hard, 10 man Elite Dungeon as well that would be the ultimate endurance test challenge content for GW2 with the best rewards in the game. I think Gw2 unlike Gw1 is severely lacking in the traditional dungeon sense and focuses far far too much on group content that you can just blast through in minutes. I think we need something like Elite Dungeons, something that we can really sink an hour or two into to complete for massive rewards. Now that we have Gear and Build templates in the game too it would be perfect to implement it and Anet could design bosses that would be highly resistant to either conditions or physical damage, would demand varying levels of support, sustain or tanks, would be immune to damage from or within certain range threshholds making it so that you would need to fight it either at range or in melee to deal damage to it. Bosses like that would make is so that everyone in the group would need to have both a physical and condition based gear set on their character as well as both a melee and ranged weapon optiosn and multiple different builds they could swap into to deal with the different bosses they would encounter in the Elite Dungeon. It would be the ultimate Hardcore content for GW2 which even if there were only ever a couple added to the game people would still appreciate and enjoy. Edited November 15, 2021 by Teratus.2859 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said: nch up un 24 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said: Back when it released there were mass complaints about it, largely the challenging difficulty of the content which personally I always found funny. Hot was designed to counter the existing meta of the time which was basically the stack and smack with melee glass canons approach that had become the go to for many players both in the open world content and in Dungeons. This is mainly why so many enemies in HoT were just health sponges with high damage and AoE, they would eradicate groups of melee glass canons trying to stack and smack them which really annoyed those kinds of players who instantly started calling for nerfs xD And they did get some. But those of us who made builds that focused on support, tanky builds and ranged play, we never really had any trouble with HoT content. Generally I do agree though, HoT even though it didn't give us as much playable content as we'd hoped, it did give us quality content that was very fun and what we wanted in a Gw2 expansion, and it remains as so to this day, even if it has become significantly easier over the years as a result of powercreep etc. I agree with this as well, i've long wished and asked for more Guild based content as well as other community based content as well. Like the Orders of Tyria for example, how on Melandru's green Tyria did Anet never utilise the Orders into communities of players based on which order they chose. We could have had something similar to Guild missions, Bounties, World boss events and other things tied into the Orders. The orders could have functioned like 3 giant factions that would provide daily goals, rewards and missions based on the faction you chose and they could have rewarded you faction specific reputation for completing them that would allow you to rank up similarly to WvW reward tracks. Vigil Players could organise Vigil bounties, spawning powerful unique legendary creatures or specific world bosses on various maps that everyone could kill for additional daily locked loot but only Vigil players would be able to spawn them and earn reputation for killing them. They could also get lesser daily bounties that challenge them to hunt and kill a specific champ creature in a random map, earning bonus loot and reputation for doing so. Priory players could organise Guild mission rush/puzzle style excavations into various ruins, jumping puzzles and mini dungeons which would greatly improve the loot quality of the chests you get at the end for all players participating but only once per day per player and only Priory players would get faction reputation for completing them. They could also get Fetch Quests, make deliveries and pickups to random Priory NPC's out in the world for some extra loot and reputation. Whispers players similarly to Guild Challenge Missions could trigger unique Whispers themed events but on the world map that all could earn daily locked rewards from but only Whispers agents would gain reputation for. These could be protecting an important NPC/creature, a gathering event or something akin to some of the early game hearts where you sneak into a bandit camp and poison food, steal suppliers and destroy key information etc. They could also be sent on solo missions to steal important documents, items and relics from many of this games random buildings. I mean have you seen how many houses and things you can go inside and explore in this game? but how often do you actually ever need to? This would be an excellent way to utilise them in the open world in my opinion. And another fun one would be assassinations! have Whispers players tasked with killing a random nameless NPC in the game that they would have to kill without being seen by running up behind them while the NPC is alone and triggering the assassination proc and running away. If each of the Orders had stuff like this to do for daily rewards they would be massively improved in my opinion and it would make our choices on what order to join on what characters feel far more worth it. And with the reputation system Anet could add things like new titles, Elite variants of Order Weapons and Armour along with outfit skins of these order armours that are only obtainable this way, allow you to upgrade your Ascended Order Backpacks into Legendary variants, access to unique Order themed GH decorations and unique dye colours that would become available over time as you rank up with each faction. Our faction rank with each order would be account bound and could also offer us additional perks like more bonus loot when completing faction based events, bonus damage or protection against faction based event creatures, and when maxed out each faction could maybe add a small increase to our account bonuses. Whispers giving a permanent +1 to Experience gain and +10 to gold find. Vigil giving a permanent +1 to Experience gain and +10 to Karma gain. Priory giving a permanent +1 to Experience gain and +10 to Magic Find. On top of that I think that Gw2 also needs to have more 5 man group content as well. More fractals AND! more dungeon content with varying degrees of difficulty and challenge. If you ask me 5 man balanced content in Gw2 should be the very first stepping stone for players in group content and there should be far more of it. Everything you learn about enemy and class mechanics in 5 man content as well as group play should be easily applicable to 10 man content as well with the only difference being you now have more people to carry 😉 jk. I think we need proper new and harder dungeons with bosses that will give players a taste of what to expect in new strike missions, they can even rehash some of the same dungeon bosses as strike missions giving you harder 10 man balanced variants of them and then go even further than that by adding challenge modes. And to top that off I also think we should on rare occasions also get a big, hard, 10 man Elite Dungeon as well that would be the ultimate endurance test challenge content for GW2 with the best rewards in the game. I think Gw2 unlike Gw1 is severely lacking in the traditional dungeon sense and focuses far far too much on group content that you can just blast through in minutes. I think we need something like Elite Dungeons, something that we can really sink an hour or two into to complete for massive rewards. Now that we have Gear and Build templates in the game too it would be perfect to implement it and Anet could design bosses that would be highly resistant to either conditions or physical damage, would demand varying levels of support, sustain or tanks, would be immune to damage from or within certain range threshholds making it so that you would need to fight it either at range or in melee to deal damage to it. Bosses like that would make is so that everyone in the group would need to have both a physical and condition based gear set on their character as well as both a melee and ranged weapon optiosn and multiple different builds they could swap into to deal with the different bosses they would encounter in the Elite Dungeon. It would be the ultimate Hardcore content for GW2 which even if there were only ever a couple added to the game people would still appreciate and enjoy. Like I said if they give rewards that are skins, but not completely new types of things that you can only get in one type of content. I'm not against it. But making PvEer's either raid or PvP to get get legendary armor is not going to encourage people to raid or pvp. A percentage of people will get neither. A percentage will burn out trying to push through content they don't enjoy. That's how I feel about PvP. I'm playing one game a day. I already have two pieces of legendary armor, but if you think this makes my game days more pleasurable you'd be wrong. It'll take a long time of having to do something I'm not enjoying. WvW players, they get to do what they always do to earn their legendary armor. PvP players, they get to do the exact same stuff they always do. PvE players, nope. You have to raid...or don't get it. It's simply wrong. This game once felt like my game. Now, less so. I'm telling you it's a problem, whether you see it that way or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said: Like I said if they give rewards that are skins, but not completely new types of things that you can only get in one type of content. I'm not against it. But making PvEer's either raid or PvP to get get legendary armor is not going to encourage people to raid or pvp. A percentage of people will get neither. A percentage will burn out trying to push through content they don't enjoy. That's how I feel about PvP. I'm playing one game a day. I already have two pieces of legendary armor, but if you think this makes my game days more pleasurable you'd be wrong. It'll take a long time of having to do something I'm not enjoying. WvW players, they get to do what they always do to earn their legendary armor. PvP players, they get to do the exact same stuff they always do. PvE players, nope. You have to raid...or don't get it. It's simply wrong. This game once felt like my game. Now, less so. I'm telling you it's a problem, whether you see it that way or not. I don't disagree with any of that, curious why you said it in reply to me though.. I never suggested forcing players into game modes they don't enjoy. I simply posed ideas for how to expand on group play in Gw2 both in instanced group content and in the open world by expanding the Order of Tyria into more of an active faction with faction specific content and rewards to unlock. The only mention I made of Legendary gear was as one of the high level rewards for each of the Orders once you've gained a significant amount of faction reputation with them you could upgrade the existing ascended Vigil, Whispers and Priory backpieces into Legendary variants providing you had already unlocked the ascended version of those items via their individual collections in Heart of Thorns. Legendary back items are obtainable in all game modes, PvP, PvE (Fractals) and WvW. Adding 3 more obtainable in PvE's open world would not be that big a deal imo, especially since the HoT collections to get the required Ascended skins for all 3 of them is in itself a fair bit of work to do. Then you would also need to farm a lot of faction reputation with your Orders to to unlock the option to upgrade those ascended backpacks to legendary as well.. so it would still take a lot of time and effort to get one of these Legendary backpacks, let alone all 3 of them. Edited November 15, 2021 by Teratus.2859 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krzysztof.5973 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 45 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said: I agree with this as well, i've long wished and asked for more Guild based content as well as other community based content as well. I guess Anet dropped guild-based content because of elitism and gatekeeping. And now guild content is dead 😔 Not because there was no new content for so long right? Just curious. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 5 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said: I guess Anet dropped guild-based content because of elitism and gatekeeping. And now guild content is dead 😔 Not because there was no new content for so long right? Just curious. I'd respect your snarky reply a lot more if there had ever actually been any effort to regularly support guild based content like there was with raids. 😛 It would also have made more.. well any kind of sense if this content was actually dead. Maybe the guilds you are in don't run guild missions on the regular but a lot of active guilds do their missions and stuff on a weekly basis and have done since they added the content to the game. Only 2 of the guilds I am in and have been in for years I would consider active and both of them run weekly missions, 1 of them runs weekly missions for both NA and EU on different days and times. This content has never been dead despite never really receiving any new content updates which it absolutely deserves. Sure we get a new hall or two with each expansion but Missions.. they have long deserved expanding with new content and still do. It's borderline criminal that they have never been expanded with new missions, puzzles, rushes etc into the expansion content. I mean christ almighty.. not even a Guild Mount Race in PoF!!? That would have been so simple to implement too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vidit.7108 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 I don't think there is much use in getting mad anymore at Arena net for raids/strikes thing. They probably don't have the resources anymore to make raids. Maybe after EoD (if it sells well) we'll see Raids make a comeback in late 2022 or sometime in 2023 if strike missions actually do something to get players invested in 10-man content. I don't think that's going to work though for the same reason it hasn't so far. After ignoring Strike Missions since they came out, I got into some groups for the return achievements. They're kind of a mess and the mechanics are ridiculous and not fun or challenging. I haven't done raids but what I've seen there in Strikes really didn't impress me. I don't think having done all of the strike missions that I could clear a raid with a group of those same players. If they had been carbon copies of raid bosses with less damage they might have been effective at introducing players into raids. I think we're still a very long way away from player interest and dev resources catching up to where they need to be before we see change. Take an encounter scale it down twice (for regular and story versions) is what they have the resources to do right and that's all we're going to get. So enjoy CM Strikes for however long they last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krzysztof.5973 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 16 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said: Maybe the guilds you are in don't run guild missions on the regular but a lot of active guilds do their missions and stuff on a weekly basis and have done since they added the content to the game. You do realize that I can extremely easily spin it in favor of raid community right? It has been years without raid release. And to this day every single week there is tons of people running raid wings that are 6 years old. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 7 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said: You do realize that I can extremely easily spin it in favor of raid community right? It has been years without raid release. And to this day every single week there is tons of people running raid wings that are 6 years old. You would fail in that endeavour i'm afraid. The issue has always been a matter of resource cost investment for the development of new raid content vs active playerbase that play said content. In the past it was just player proclamations and suspicions of dying raids due to inadequate population numbers to justify the continued development of new content, but now we have had an official Anet Dev statement that proves those player suspicious and proclamations to be true. Where you have made your mistake much like many raiders have is that you believe that this population issue is the result of a content drought in raids.. resulting in a mass exodus of raiders getting bored of the content and leaving. Nobody is going to deny that this has actually occurred, it very much has but it is another symptom of the problem NOT!! the source of it as many raiders believe. The source of the problem is and always has been the exclusion of a sizable amount of interested players from the content because they didn't want to bend over and accept the ridiculous demands (in their eyes) that the established raiding community imposed on them if they wanted to play the content. The fact that raiders to this day still use the high population of raids in it's early days as proof that there is huge demand and interest in raids is by extent proof of what I am saying. Those high population figures exist largely because there were so many people trying to get into raiding back then, they are including the people who later got excluded from the content and give up. This is why there was such a huge population drop in the first place and subsequently why raids got their content droughts that drove even more players away. This is the reality that many raiders ignore and why so many of us saw the eventual death of raiding coming a long time ago and tried for so long to warn raiders about it.. warnings that ultimately fell on deaf ears. 3 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krzysztof.5973 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 3 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said: You would fail in that endeavour i'm afraid. The issue has always been a matter of resource cost investment for the development of new raid content vs active playerbase that play said content. In the past it was just player proclamations and suspicions of dying raids due to inadequate population numbers to justify the continued development of new content, but now we have had an official Anet Dev statement that proves those player suspicious and proclamations to be true. Where you have made your mistake much like many raiders have is that you believe that this population issue is the result of a content drought in raids.. resulting in a mass exodus of raiders getting bored of the content and leaving. Nobody is going to deny that this has actually occurred, it very much has but it is another symptom of the problem NOT!! the source of it as many raiders believe. The source of the problem is and always has been the exclusion of a sizable amount of interested players from the content because they didn't want to bend over and accept the ridiculous demands (in their eyes) that the established raiding community imposed on them if they wanted to play the content. The fact that raiders to this day still use the high population of raids in it's early days as proof that there is huge demand and interest in raids is by extent proof of what I am saying. Those high population figures exist largely because there were so many people trying to get into raiding back then, they are including the people who later got excluded from the content and give up. This is why there was such a huge population drop in the first place and subsequently why raids got their content droughts that drove even more players away. This is the reality that many raiders ignore and why so many of us saw the eventual death of raiding coming a long time ago and tried for so long to warn raiders about it.. warnings that ultimately fell on deaf ears. I would argue that people who had the capacity to learn and overcome "challenges" of raiding broadly speaking, stayed in those raiding communities, but the effort to keep clearing was not worth it after you got your ultimate raid rewards (the armor and trinket). Profit and effort/skill wise it makes more sense to do open world farms. Anet in my opinion, failed to this day introduce ways and encourage players to "git gut". We still lack in-game explanations for majority of mechanics and systems. We are already missing massive surge of new players because they think raids are too hard for them. Then there is fair share of people who no matter what, will never tackle raids for whatever reason. The game gets easier and easier with each patch so there is little incentive to improve. So why should someone step out of their comfort zone and improve if there is more reward elsewhere costing less effort? The downfall of raids began when they started catering to so called "casuals" for overwhelming majority of their release cadence. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said: I guess Anet dropped guild-based content because of elitism and gatekeeping. And now guild content is dead 😔 Not because there was no new content for so long right? Just curious. It's funny in a way. To me, almost this entire game is guild based content. Sometimes we're doing dragonstand together, sometimes it's guild missions, we definitely have been doing Seasons of the Dragons together. We do achievement hunting together, story together. This last week we did the ten man instance and a couple of strikes together. WvW is certainly guild based and will become more so with the alliance update. I'm not sure when the entire game is good for guilds that guild content needs a lot of help. What guilds DO need is is updates to the infrastructure. There's still no way for a guild leader to talk to everyone in his guild or all the officers. Though you can tell when people log in and out, you can't tell the last time someone repped your guild. In a guild like mine, which sometimes gets close to 500 members, we don't really want to keep people who never rep or participate. Seeing that info would help if I happen to need spots. Permissions are not clearly defined and need an overhaul as well. Hell, a couple of weeks ago, someone switched the guild missions to PvP guild missions and we're a PvE guild. We didn't do missions that week. I'd have talked to the person involved, but unfortunately, the log doesn't show who switches guild missions or when. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firedragon.8953 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 It is my hope that Strike Mission CMs will basically be raids in terms of difficulty and depth. Maybe offer unique legendary gear and skins, with normal strike missions offering access to ascended gear (like they do now). I think Arena Net is taking a good approach here with what basically amounts to difficulty scaling. They got this right with dungeons, erhm, I mean "fractals" and I think it is time they do this with big boss fights. How they describe it, first encounter in a "story mission" and then a beefed up version in a "normal and relatively farmable" normal difficulty Strike Mission, with a harder CM allowing for some legendary and in game only loot (hopefully). Put a few in-game mount skin RNG on the CM Strike Missions and "boom" you now give more casual players a carrot at the end of the stick with a nice paved road to follow to more challenging content. Then maybe, if we are lucky and those CM strike missions are played by enough of the player base, people will venture into raids, and new "raids" (basically just longer strike missions, no?) may be worth it for Anet to invest into. But basically I just think GW2 raids will be CM strikes, but offer baby-step progression where PUGs can even learn mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotDelirium.7984 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 One of the DEV posts did talk about the plans with strike missions and I extrapolate that strike missions are now the new raid because they will have different difficulty levels to appeal to everyone. They won't contain story beats and will just be about the mechanics which is great since earlier raids had so much rich lore (yeah Dhuum tried to come back but you probably didn't even know). The new iteration of strike missions is the evolution of them learning what has worked and not worked with prior raids and strike missions. It's a win-win-win for the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LKEY.9567 Posted November 15, 2021 Share Posted November 15, 2021 Strikes are not Raids and that's it. I believe they are too hard for majority of community so they want to focus on non-repeatable content like story instances. Simple solution to attract more players into Raids? Give 10g per each boss. People play the content which rewards them well and if we have high end PvE content being less rewarding than simple meta chain then noone bothers, lol. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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