Are raids really gone in EoD?

[Teratus.2859]

On 11/15/2021 at 7:55 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

You are throwing a lot of approaches over 1 comb, as though there was only 1 reason why segregation exists.

Let's unwind this a little:

A. players who enjoy challenging content most often enjoy conquering it. That's where progress raiding comes in. (which given this games very long release cycles, is near non existent. Wing 7 was CM cleared in like 2.5 hours after release)

B. some players also enjoy honing their skills as much as possible, that's where optimization comes in

C. going along those lines, clearing content in specific ways, some harder, other easier, challenges people's ability to adapt, create builds and in general switchup or move the goal post. That's where speedrunning comes in on the one side, safe but fast non meta comps/builds on the other

D. some players do it for the loot (mostly gold and some drops because after 4.7k LI/LD I can tell you: my biggest concern in regards to those is only when will my 2k storage be full).

E. some very good players sell runs, why give something away for free if others are willing to pay?

F. all players will have different mindsets depending on what type of run they do. My attitude, approach, professionalism and even classes played will vary greatly between my FC static and more casual guild raids later down the week.

 

The issue has never been about wanting to "carry" players for the additional challenge. That certainly happens more than enough in trainings runs or guild training runs, which by the way a ton of experienced raiders participate in. It's about achieving the set task in a way everybody agrees on and having an obnoxious person telling you they want to run their build of choice, which you know is garbage, certainly does not fit because: I get to play how I (or in this case the group) want/s.

 

For anyone who hasn't watched Mighty Teapots stream on PvE recently (in discussion with Snebzor, Nike, Preston), all of which do trainings en mass. Go watch from 1:10:00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRUMKVeIJr8) and realize WHAT raid trainers have to deal with. Make sure to watch "the raid community" and "getting into raiding". You'll get a great overview on issues which ACTUAL raid trainers face on a daily basis from the more casual players and toxic elitists.

 

Sorry for the late response haven't been on here in a few days.
Just to note but the question you addressed in this reply about including casuals for extra challenge wasn't actually a serious one, it was more of a comedic point lol

I don't disagree with anything you said in the response about the different ways people enjoy the content.
I'm well aware that people play raids for different reasons, in fact that's been one of the biggest arguments i've been making for the promotion of a casual raiding community for god knows how long now.

Many of my arguments with raiders in the past has been about this exact thing, about people like me wanting to play and experience raids my own way, with my own builds with like minded people, and not be bullied and forced into playing them "your way".
And what I mean when i say playing raids "your way" I specifically mean I don't want to assimilate into the toxic meta culture that is enforced by a lot of players, and not just in raiding either.. it exists in other parts of the game too, PVP; WvW, Fractals, Strike Missions and yes still but to a significantly lesser degree it still exists in dungeon content too. 

That is literally the bulk of what these arguments have been about and it's this attitude that raiders have had a problem with.
Because we don't want to assimilate into the meta culture, we get accused of "not wanting to learn how to play" and that is not only a flat out lie, it's also severely annoying and insulting when it is constantly used to attack and smear people who don't enjoy nor want to play the game the same way that those making the accusations do.

Raiders want to play the game their way, I don't and never have had a problem with that.
I've only ever had a problem with raiders telling me that I can't play this content because I won't play it their way.
The Meta culture that is so regularly enforced in raiding is NOT! essential to enjoy or beat the content, it is NOT! the only way to play raids like so many raiders claim it is and this has been prove time and time again by numerous people, including btw Mighty Teapot himself who regularly does player made raid challenges to make the content more challenging for himself just for the fun of it.
Part of that being that he intentionally uses inefficient builds and gear setups and even occasionally plays with inexperienced players and carries them for the fun of it.

And that's why we don't join raid training guilds etc as well because all "raid training" really is, is a method of educating and assimilating people into the meta culture so that they can play raids the way raiders want them to.
And I understand why raid training does this, it's sensible and there are good reasons why it is this way, namely that it gives those who go through it the highest chance of successfully finding a raid group to regularly raid with.
HOWEVER! this is a problem for all of us who don't want to assimilate into that meta culture.
What it means is that when raiders tell us that "the tools exist" for us to learn and get into raiding, that is simply not true.
It means specifically that "the tools exist" for us to learn and get into raiding ONLY! on YOUR! terms if we agree to raid YOUR! way.
If you are someone who doesn't want to assimilate into that meta culture because you don't enjoy playing Gw2 that way, then it quite literally means that the tools to get into raiding DON'T! exist for us.

Speaking of Mighty Teapot, I have watched that stream (was a really good one imo) and find it ironic that you would bring it up.
Several arguments I've made in the past were also made by Sneb in that stream and Teapot himself said several things I have also said in the past as well including a word for word repeat of a statement that I made a long time ago when I was warning raiders that raids were going to die unless it could attract more players and gain a casual community.
"You need us more than we need you" (You meaning Raiders and Us/We meaning Casuals)
I've said that myself in the past, right here on these forums word for word.

Teapot has also criticised the meta culture around raiding in the past as well other raiders for not understanding the game as much as they think they do.
He's probably one of the biggest content creators that critiques raiding and the raid community in gw2, and probably one of the fairest as well.
 
From everything I've seen of his content on raiding I would think that he would agree with a fair amount of the arguments i've made on here over time, and he would also agree with a fair amount of you raiders arguments as well while also disagreeing with both of us on a lot of things at the same time.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Sobx.1758]

11 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

I didn't miss anything. You don't know the difference between raids and strikes, all you are hung up on is the future "difficulty". Go do some and find out.

Yeah, I do both, but "I don't know the difference" 🙃 Buddy, you're the one that keeps crying about inability to start raiding "because vague elitists are there to get you!", not me. And no, I'm not just "hung up on the future difficulty", it's about the core of what these encounters are and how they play. You said it yourself, SMs were added to serve as a bridge of difficulty to prepair the players for raid encounters. The moment difficulty jumps up to raiding content (even if optional through cms), it's very obviously and naturally becoming much closer to renaming raids with a small degree of implementing changes to make them easier to get into (because who ever enjoyed looking for "openers" just because the bosses are connected in 3s or 4s) 

But then again, pretty much the only thing you wrote was "get your facts right!", meanwhile when asked what exactly you're talking about... you still didn't respond with anything specific, but instead just re-quoted my 2 posts that are still as correct as they were before 🤔

Quote

Oh so your argument now is getting to the desperate phase... So now I just want rewards handed to me and I'm not willing to do the content? I have like 28k achies. Over 20+ Legendary items and raid legendary armor. Crafted or earned over 300+ ascended pieces across 20 characters. Over 2k rank in wvw as a roamer when I'm bored. Done all game content. I got everything I want for characters and out of this game... How about you? Or do you just sit on the forums not knowing much about the game at all?   

Nothing desparate about stating facts you dislike and number of ascended gear sitting on a throwaway character has nothing to do with anything here.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Sorry for the late response haven't been on here in a few days.
Just to note but the question you addressed in this reply about including casuals for extra challenge wasn't actually a serious one, it was more of a comedic point lol

I don't disagree with anything you said in the response about the different ways people enjoy the content.
I'm well aware that people play raids for different reason, in fact that's been one of the biggest arguments i've been making for the promotion of a casual raiding community for god knows how long now.

Many of my arguments with raiders in the past has been about this exact thing, about people like me wanting to play and experience raids my own way, with my own builds with like minded people, and not be bullied and forced into playing them "your way".
And what I mean when i say playing raids "your way" I specifically mean I don't want to assimilate into the toxic meta culture that is enforced by a lot of players, and not just in raiding either.. it exists in other parts of the game too, PVP; WvW, Fractals, Strike Missions and yes still but to a significantly lesser degree it still exists in dungeon content too. 

That is literally the bulk of what these arguments have been about and it's this attitude that raiders have had a problem with.
Because we don't want to assimilate into the meta culture, we get accused of "not wanting to learn how to play" and that is not only a flat out lie, it's also severely annoying and insulting when it is constantly used to attack and smear people who don't enjoy nor want to play the game the same way that those making the accusations do.

Raiders want to play the game their way, I don't and never have had a problem with that.
I've only ever had a problem with raiders telling me that I can't play this content because I won't play it their way.
The Meta culture that is so regularly enforced in raiding is NOT! essential to enjoy or beat the content, it is NOT! the only way to play raids like so many raiders claim it is and this has been prove time and time again by numerous people, including btw Mighty Teapot himself who regularly does player made raid challenges to make the content more challenging for himself just for the fun of it.
Part of that being that he intentionally uses inefficient builds and gear setups and even occasionally plays with inexperienced players and carries them for the fun of it.

And that's why we don't join raid training guilds etc as well because all "raid training" really is, is a method of educating and assimilating people into the meta culture so that they can play raids the way raiders want them to.

Speaking of Mighty Teapot, I have watched that stream (was a really good one imo) and find it ironic that you would bring it up.
Several arguments I've made in the past were also made by Sneb in that stream and Teapot himself said several things I have also said in the past as well including a word for word repeat of a statement that I made a long time ago when I was warning raiders that raids were going to die unless it could attract more players and gain a casual community.
"You need us more than we need you" (You meaning Raiders and Us/We meaning Casuals)
I've said that myself in the past, right here on these forums word for word.

Teapot has also criticised the meta culture around raiding in the past as well other raiders for not understanding the game as much as they think they do.
From everything I've seen of his content on raiding I would think that he would agree with a fair amount of my arguments on here, and he would also agree with a fair amount of you raiders arguments as well while also disagreeing with both of us on a lot of things.

I have yet to see anyone trying to inspect anyone else's build. The claims that you can't raid if you're not perfecting the meta are just false and are strongly dependant on the individual squads/cases. You can always join or create appropriate squads and they'll fill up. Instead, apparently, you're expecting other players to organize the content in the way you want. I'm -also- playing in no req squads, was never bent to get "x kp" or a specific build from anyone and we've played just fine. You can't do that because... what exactly?

Edited November 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Many of my arguments with raiders in the past has been about this exact thing, about people like me wanting to play and experience raids my own way, with my own builds with like minded people, and not be bullied and forced into playing them "your way".
And what I mean when i say playing raids "your way" I specifically mean I don't want to assimilate into the toxic meta culture that is enforced by a lot of players, and not just in raiding either.. it exists in other parts of the game too, PVP; WvW, Fractals, Strike Missions and yes still but to a significantly lesser degree it still exists in dungeon content too.

You can.

What you seem to not understand is this:

Playing "your way" might be insanely inefficient (referring to players who demand to play their custom build no matter what). Which is fine on its own and in solo content or content where performance is not relevant. Group content and especially challenging group content has requirements which need to get met: mechanics need to be done, boons are beneficial, healing helps, etc. That won't magically be solved with most "your way" builds.

Most players thus opt to adapt their play-style to what "is needed" to succeed at the content. To varying degrees, but still adapting.

The remaining few which absolutely do not want to adapt are at the end a niche group where their approach to this content simply does not work. Which is fine too, but no amount of adapting the content will fix.

Quote

 That is literally the bulk of what these arguments have been about and it's this attitude that raiders have had a problem with.
Because we don't want to assimilate into the meta culture, we get accused of "not wanting to learn how to play" and that is not only a flat out lie, it's also severely annoying and insulting when it is constantly used to attack and smear people who don't enjoy nor want to play the game the same way that those making the accusations do.

There is a vast difference between not wanting to run a meta build, yet running a custom build which provides what is needed and running a custom build which is strait up useless.

Most custom builds are useless, it's that simple. If more players would bother with actually checking how well their build performs, no matter if dps, support, or w/e, this would be self-explanatory.

You are literally "no wanting to learn to play" in regards to performance required for specific content. Which again is fine, when that performance is not needed, but becomes an issue when it does.

Quote

Raiders want to play the game their way, I don't and never have had a problem with that.

You are assuming "raiders" are 1 type of players. That is wrong. What you should rather be referring to is:"players who are willing to adapt their play-style to varying degrees to meet content requirements". That's what those "raider" you refer to actually are, and many players are far from snowcrow or luckynoobs performance, yet still succeed at raids.

Quote

I've only ever had a problem with raiders telling me that I can't play this content because I won't play it their way.

and thus this group:"players who absolutely will not budge or adapt their build to meet performance requirements to succeed at content" becomes a tiny niche group.

THAT is why you don't fine people to play with, because most players are in fact willing to adapt at least to a small amount or far enough to succeed. The tiny niche group of "I play my way or the highway but still want to succeed at this content" is insignificant. Most players there simply do not care about raids or social content to begin with.

Quote

The Meta culture that is so regularly enforced in raiding is NOT! essential to enjoy or beat the content, it is NOT! the only way to play raids like so many raiders claim it is and this has been prove time and time again by numerous people, including btw Mighty Teapot himself who regularly does player made raid challenges to make the content more challenging for himself just for the fun of it.
Part of that being that he intentionally uses inefficient builds and gear setups and even occasionally plays with inexperienced players and carries them for the fun of it.

Teapot REGULARLY posts videos of non meta and safer raid comps, so I am unsure if you understood his videos. In fact, most raid groups and not top tier raid players run safer compositions or variations on builds to make them easier all the time.

The META is NOT enforced. Performance is ENFORCED. There is a VAST difference between those 2 things. If you bring a custom wet noodle 3k dps build as damage dealer, it's not the META which is being enforced when you are kicked. It's the bareminimum requirements to succeed at the content which you are not providing.

Now, META builds can provide the performance required, but so can even more off-meta builds. Please don't confuse the 2 points.

If players demand you play a meta build just for the sake of it, sure run for the hills. If players demand you perform your role in the squad, then perform the role or leave (or ask if you can switch roles with someone).

Quote

And that's why we don't join raid training guilds etc as well because all "raid training" really is, is a method of educating and assimilating people into the meta culture so that they can play raids the way raiders want them to.

No, raid training is essentially the process of teaching players what is required of them in group content. The details might be mechanics of specific bosses, certain classes being favored, etc. BUT when it comes down to the absolute baseline of what raid training provides it's: this is how group content works in this game. This is how setups and squad compositions work. These are governing mechanics of the engine. This is what is required.

The fact that many players AFTER learning of how the game works then change their approach is a result of actually adapting their knew gained knowledge to their builds and game approach. Not being brainwashed somehow into submission.

Quote

And I understand why raid training does this, it's sensible and there are good reasons why it is this way, namely that it gives those who go through it the highest chance of successfully finding a raid group to regularly raid with.

Not true. Read above.

Quote

HOWEVER! this is a problem for all of us who don't want to assimilate into that meta culture.
What it means is that when raiders tell us that "the tools exist" for us to learn and get into raiding, that is simply not true.
It means specifically that "the tools exist" for us to learn and get into raiding ONLY! on YOUR! terms if we agree to raid YOUR! way.
If you are someone who doesn't want to assimilate into that meta culture because you don't enjoy playing Gw2 that way, then it quite literally means that the tools to get into raiding DON'T! exist for us.

You keep using the term META, mostly in context of specific builds or being forced into specific builds. That is simply not the case, unless you are playing in the top 1% of the player-base, which I can guarantee you you will never do (which is fine).

All it takes for a players to succeed at raiding is to bring the performance which a group desires or needs. HOW you bring that performance is up to you.

Quote

Speaking of Mighty Teapot, I have watched that stream (was a really good one imo) and find it ironic that you would bring it up.
Several arguments I've made in the past were also made by Sneb in that stream and Teapot himself said several things I have also said in the past as well including a word for word repeat of a statement that I made a long time ago when I was warning raiders that raids were going to die unless it could attract more players and gain a casual community.
"You need us more than we need you" (You meaning Raiders and Us/We meaning Casuals)
I've said that myself in the past, right here on these forums word for word.

Yes, those arguments were made alongside the same:"some people just do not want to switch to a build which is remotely useful, no matter how politely one asks them or tries to accommodate their preference". That's where it is at. Some people just want to do their thing and they care 0 about what the other 9 people in that squad would ask for. That does not work in a group setting.

Quote

Teapot has also criticised the meta culture around raiding in the past as well other raiders for not understanding the game as much as they think they do.
He's probably one of the biggest content creators that critiques raiding and the raid community in gw2, and probably one of the fairest as well.

No, Teapot criticizes the fixation on meta builds in specific groups, mostly beginner to mid tier level experienced players, and tries to broaden horizons by showing that off-meta compositions are more than fine.

He does NOT criticize the fact that there are certain requirements which need to be met by a squad. In fact, most of his off-meta setups are intentionally made with covering all the necessities as safe as possible (ample healing/barrier, massive amount of boons, support utilities, fast ressurecting, etc.).

Many builds sites, Snowcrows and LuckNoobs, have start incorporating off-meta builds for a long time now (metabattle.com even has a simple rotation page for easier beginner builds). Give advice on how difficult builds are or which variations can be made. In that regard there are already tons of resources, and have been, which are showing off-meta variations.

 

All of that has nothing to do with players who profoundly REFUSE to budge even 1 iota from their scrub build.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Teratus.2859]

11 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You can always join or create appropriate squads and they'll fill up. Instead, apparently, you're expecting other players to organize the content in the way you want.

Easy to say, blatantly wrong in practice.
There may be some difference between NA and EU but go into the raid lobby every now and again and create a squad called "noob run all welcome"
See how long it takes you to find a full group of people.

I have done it multiple times over the years in my attempts to find a like minded group, I have waited into the hours range and never once got more than 4-5 people join the group, and never at the same time either as most just give up due to the waiting time.
Longest anyone stayed in the group was about 20 minutes.

The only time I ever managed to find a full groups of random's in the LFG was when raids first came out several years ago back when everyone was new to the content.
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Playing "your way" might be insanely inefficient (referring to players who demand to play their custom build no matter what). Which is fine on its own and in solo content or content where performance is not relevant. Group content and especially challenging group content has requirements which need to get met: mechanics need to be done, boons are beneficial, healing helps, etc. That won't magically be solved with most "your way" builds.

Most players thus opt to adapt their play-style to what "is needed" to succeed at the content. To varying degrees, but still adapting.

That's the thing, you don't know what I'm running nor what my builds are capable of.
You only know that they are custom builds and assume they are bad and that they bring nothing to the group based on that, because they are in your words as mentioned later in your post "scrub" builds.

For all you know my builds could be only a fair bit less effective than the go to meta builds and more than enough to beat the content, and I have beaten some raids with them so I know they're sufficient enough to succeed in at least some of the content.

Add to that most players don't use nor want to use 3rd party tools like arcdps either so a lot of them have no real idea what their DPS actually is in actual gameplay, which is always going to be much lower than the figures the golem provides because of the uptime difference.
And DPS is the main thing people will play there because it's what most of the group is made from and it's literally the easiest role.
Many average builds running full damage even when played to an average level will still output decent enough DPS to beat a raid so long as the player doesn't spend most of their time taking a dirt nap, the content is quite literally balanced around the average player's DPS output which is why it's still possible for a group of casuals who don't really know what they're doing to still beat raids after several attempts.
I quite literally watched my wife do that a few weeks ago with a complete group of first timers she found in a new guild she joined not long ago and she's as casual a player as they come and knows very little about Gw2's game mechanics.

Just to clarify why I didn't participate in the same run despite having the option to.
1. Most of the group were non English speakers that I couldn't communicate with nor understand which would have made things too awkward, my wife is bilingual but I am not.
2. I was preoccupied with another game that I was busy in at the time and wasn't about to stop what I was doing to play a different game that I wasn't in the mood to play at the time.
3. After years of failed attempts and negative experiences with many raiders, I've long given up on raids as a lost cause and no longer care enough to want to try anymore, effectively joining the masses of casuals who did the same before me for the same reasons.
Unless there is something Anet does to entice the casual community back to try saving raids then we just won't bother and will look to enjoy upcoming Strike Mission content instead.
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

There is a vast difference between not wanting to run a meta build, yet running a custom build which provides what is needed and running a custom build which is strait up useless.

The vast majority of "provides what is needed" in a raid group is just DPS.
Most players as I said above running glass canon stats that spam skills of CD can provide more than enough of that.
The problem is raiders don't want people who only contribute sufficient average dps, they want players who can hit 30-40K+ dps which frankly is speed run territory and well into excessive territory for any content in this game.
Raiders themselves admit this reality every time they argue casuals slow down the content thus more room for error being the reason they don't want to play with them.
A fair enough reason not to want them in your group if clearing the raid as fast as possible is what you are after.
If you say that element doesn't matter to you which some raiders have then neither should anyone's average DPS output in your group matter.
And there lies the truth about the bulk of the raiding community, it does matter to most of them and therefore the meta culture and standards of playing up to that culture is enforced by many raiders despite the fact that raids are balanced around the average and meta builds are not necessary to beat them.
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Most custom builds are useless, it's that simple. If more players would bother with actually checking how well their build performs, no matter if dps, support, or w/e, this would be self-explanatory.

That's quite an elitist thing to say, the "most custom builds are useless" part at least.

As for the rest it's like I said above, the only accurate and efficient way of checking that kind of data is with 3rd party software which the vast majority of players in Gw2 will never accept nor want to download and run on their computers.

If that kind of information is that important to participate in and beat raids (and it really isn't) then those kinds of tools should be provided in the game itself.
And no the "training golems" are not good enough and do not provide realistic DPS uptime figures for actual gameplay combat.
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are literally "no wanting to learn to play" in regards to performance required for specific content. Which again is fine, when that performance is not needed, but becomes an issue when it does.

As I said, raids are balanced around the average player not the top tier DPS players, as is the entire Gw2 game.
What makes raids "difficult" and "challenging" are the mechanics of the raids and instant death factor which severely punishes players for mistakes.

For experienced raiders, raids become pretty much easy and routine.
It's not because you are hitting excessive DPS benchmarks, it's because you know and have so much experience with the mechanics of each raid.
 
An experienced raid group could for fun run a bunch of "scrub" builds and still beat raid content, it would just take longer.
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are assuming "raiders" are 1 type of players. That is wrong. What you should rather be referring to is:"players who are willing to adapt their play-style to varying degrees to meet content requirements". That's what those "raider" you refer to actually are, and many players are far from snowcrow or luckynoobs performance, yet still succeed at raids.

Again you use this incorrect term "content requirements" 
It's raiders who demand people run meta builds and hit excessive DPS figures, not the content.

The only place I would agree with you on this is with support builds which are arguably the most important part of any raid group.
But DPS, no.. you don't need to be hitting 30-40K DPS to beat raids, you can succeed with the average range, plenty of people have proven this.
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

and thus this group:"players who absolutely will not budge or adapt their build to meet performance requirements to succeed at content" becomes a tiny niche group.

Yes, a tiny niche group that was so tiny it was literally the deciding factor for whether this content would continue getting support...

Sorry but I can't understand how you could say such a thing when even Teapot himself agrees that these players abandoning raids effectively doomed the content.
If you genuinely care about raids and want Anet to support them again then you desperately need the casuals to come back and boost the playerbase there, or it will never happen..
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

THAT is why you don't fine people to play with, because most players are in fact willing to adapt at least to a small amount or far enough to succeed. The tiny niche group of "I play my way or the highway but still want to succeed at this content" is insignificant. Most players there simply do not care about raids or social content to begin with.

Incorrect.
I couldn't find people to play with in part because we are not an organised community like you raiders are, but mainly because most of the people that I wanted to play with give up on raids a long time ago and don't care enough about raids to want to try getting into them anymore.
And as I said above, I also no longer care enough to try getting into them either.

So raids lost yet another player who DID! have have an interest in raiding for a very long time, a lot longer than most of my casual peers did.
We are certainly not an "insignificant minority" of players, we were large enough of a playerbase that we were literally the deciding factor in whether this content lives with support or gets abandoned and dies.
We casuals doomed raids to when we give up on it, and ever since then your community has gotten smaller and smaller as other raiders abandoned it too.
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Teapot REGULARLY posts videos of non meta and safer raid comps, so I am unsure if you understood his videos. In fact, most raid groups and not top tier raid players run safer compositions or variations on builds to make them easier all the time.

Yes he does, and often times he does it to disprove and mock common attitudes held by other players like X/Y class/build sucks and is useless for raiding, proving those attitudes to be wrong.
That's one of the reasons I started regularly watching his content in fact.

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The META is NOT enforced. Performance is ENFORCED. There is a VAST difference between those 2 things. If you bring a custom wet noodle 3k dps build as damage dealer, it's not the META which is being enforced when you are kicked. It's the bareminimum requirements to succeed at the content which you are not providing.

Now, META builds can provide the performance required, but so can even more off-meta builds. Please don't confuse the 2 points.

Yes performance is enforced via the Meta.
Like I said so many times, there is a good portion of the raiding community that demands excessive levels of performance to even be in their groups.
The kind of performance you mainly get from meta builds so yes the meta is enforced by a number of players through personal preference performance requirements, not content requirements.

I'm not confusing the two points, my argument here is that there are many different builds out there that can provide the adequate DPS needed to beat raids.
They're just not wanted in many raid groups because many groups demand top tier DPS or very close to it.
Which as I said is not essential to beat the content and far surpasses the "content requirements" you keep mentioning.
If the high to top tier DPS was the "content requirements" as you suggest then no matter how good a raider you are, you would never be able to kill a raid boss with several minutes to spare on the timer.
You would constantly be in range of enrage on every kill.

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No, raid training is essentially the process of teaching players what is required of them in group content. The details might be mechanics of specific bosses, certain classes being favored, etc. BUT when it comes down to the absolute baseline of what raid training provides it's: this is how group content works in this game. This is how setups and squad compositions work. These are governing mechanics of the engine. This is what is required.

Unless those players are aiming to learn support based roles then the only valuable thing they are learning really is the raid mechanics which I have always said are the most essential thing players need to hand on learn to raid.
All DPS players need to learn is the mechanics, apart from that it's hit the monster as much as possibly and don't die.
A laughably easy role once you know what you are doing, it's the raid communities unnecessary demands that they hit excessive DPS figures that entirely make this role so difficult for the causal players to get into, even in some training groups.

When groups train new raiders they do so with the intent of training players to a point where they would gladly have them in their own groups.
Therefore the preferences of the trainers does get passed on to the trainee's, because that's how they learned how to raid and who from.
This is part of what enforces the meta culture, because it's the most "efficient" way to raid and most raiders put a very high priority on efficiency even though it is not mandatory to be able to play and beat this content.
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The fact that many players AFTER learning of how the game works then change their approach is a result of actually adapting their knew gained knowledge to their builds and game approach. Not being brainwashed somehow into submission.

Yes most raiders assimilate into the meta culture and adopt the "efficient" way of playing raids.
And the ones who don't want to assimilate into that culture because they don't care if a raid takes them an extra  few minutes to beat can find no place in the community at all and get effectively gatekept out of it unless they do submit and assimilate.
Nobody is being brainwashed into submission here, it's just a simple case of those who didn't want to assimilate couldn't participate even if they were more than capable of beating the content despite their inefficient build/playstyle preference.

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You keep using the term META, mostly in context of specific builds or being forced into specific builds. That is simply not the case, unless you are playing in the top 1% of the player-base, which I can guarantee you you will never do (which is fine).

More like being forced to perform to unnecessary and excessive extremes and being told that those are required to beat the content when I know they are not.
Again this is where the meta culture is enforced through performance and it's not about the builds themselves but how you are expected to use them.

If I can average 15-23k dps on my own custom build but my group demands a minimum of 25-30K dps and then throws a build at me using weapons I don't normally use and elite spec mechanics and skills I am not familiar with then I can promise you that even if the build is capable of 35-40K DPS I will end up doing significantly less DPS than I was doing on my own build which was more than sufficient to beat the content.

I have literally seen arguments happen between 2 players over a 3rd players DPS because of a literal 2-3k difference in preference.
One player claiming the DPS was fine, another demanding the group kick said player for their DPS being 2-3k lower than what they personally expected everyone to be doing.
And this happened in a Strike Mission after a single wipe.
For the record too, we didn't kick the "low dps" player, the rest of the group which was mostly casual players did the right thing and refused to kick him, and we got the kill on the next attempt despite multiple people in the group playing deliberately less efficiently just to annoy the elitist player lol
 

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

All it takes for a players to succeed at raiding is to bring the performance which a group desires or needs. HOW you bring that performance is up to you.

I would reword that to:

"all it takes for a player to get into most raid groups is to bring the performance which a group desires or needs."

I would say that all it takes for players to succeed at raiding is to have prior knowledge and experience of the raid and it's bosses.
Yes there is a bare minimum support and DPS standard that raids requires, i'm not debating that.
What I am debating is that that standard is significantly lower and far more inclusive to more Gw2 players than what most raiders believe it to be.

For the vast majority of casuals who tried raiding and give up on it, it wasn't the enrage timers that killed them, it was the boss and instant death mechanics that they had no experience with and never managed to gain enough of.
Overcoming those is like 85-90% of beating all raids imo.
That last 10% is sufficient DPS uptime and the group simply surviving long enough to apply enough of it.

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, those arguments were made alongside the same:"some people just do not want to switch to a build which is remotely useful, no matter how politely one asks them or tries to accommodate their preference". That's where it is at. Some people just want to do their thing and they care 0 about what the other 9 people in that squad would ask for. That does not work in a group setting.

Yes there were a lot of good arguments being made on both sides.
Though some of them were also very charged and elitist at times as well.

As I said above, making someone switch to a build they are not familiar with, especially if that build has spec mechanics they have never played with is not "remotely useful" at all.
If anything it will cause them to underperform even more in many cases.

While it can be argued that "some people just want to do their thing and they care 0 about what the other 9 people in that squad would ask for." which I don't and never have denied does happen at times.

It can also be argued the other way around in that some people are so obsessed with everyone else playing to their demands and expectations that they they don't remotely care if whether the other 9 people in the squad are even enjoying the content anymore or even having any fun because of them.
If the content isn't fun then why bother right?.. this is one of the reasons so many casuals left in the first place.
But it wasn't the raid content that killed their fun, it was repeated negative experiences with players they describe as "toxic" and "elitist".

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No, Teapot criticizes the fixation on meta builds in specific groups, mostly beginner to mid tier level experienced players, and tries to broaden horizons by showing that off-meta compositions are more than fine.

He does NOT criticize the fact that there are certain requirements which need to be met by a squad. In fact, most of his off-meta setups are intentionally made with covering all the necessities as safe as possible (ample healing/barrier, massive amount of boons, support utilities, fast ressurecting, etc.).

That's basically what I said, he critiques the raid community and the meta culture.

I never said he contests that there are certain squad requirements for raiding.
I did however imply in other posts that he and others have on multiple occasions proven that those requirements are lower that what many raiders would claim they are.

Hell Teapot proving scourge can carry a raid team basically proved that I was right all along when I was preaching that "Necro has very underrated and easily the best downed support capability in the game" and that "Necromancer is the ultimate safety net for group content in Gw2."
Opinions that were quite regularly contested for the record, hell some people would probably still contest them.

I respect people like Teapot and Nemesis who push off-meta builds and prove that the naysayers and elitists are often wrong and don't know as much as they think they do.
It's good to see those kinds of players knocked off their high horses every once in a while.

9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Many builds sites, Snowcrows and LuckNoobs, have start incorporating off-meta builds for a long time now (metabattle.com even has a simple rotation page for easier beginner builds). Give advice on how difficult builds are or which variations can be made. In that regard there are already tons of resources, and have been, which are showing off-meta variations.

They don't have a choice but to once the off meta builds are proven to be as good or better than existing ones.

Eventually they will become the new meta though, as you said plenty of raiders already do run off meta builds themselves, likely because they're more fun to play or possibly even just better than existing meta's.

These metabuild websites have not been a point of contention though, I pin no blame on these sites.
It's always been the elitist attitudes of the die hard meta pushers and how they tend to treat other players like dirt for the most absurd reasons that I've had a problem with, not these sites and the builds themselves that they promote.
People are always the problem, never the tools they use.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Swagger.1459]

"Strikes are basically rebranded/improved raids." 

 

"Why are you even here? "free rewards plox"? Cool -learn and complete the content if you want to get the rewards since you have every tool you need to do that, that's all there is to it."

 

"Asking me "if I even play this game" when all you do here is complain about content you don't even play, because you want the rewards handed to you is pretty funny, I'll give you that."

 

"(I don't know what your point is in re-quoting two of my posts here btw, since you didn't add anything new, so make sure to explain. For now everything I said there remains true, including description of your wierd hobby of orbiting raid/strike threads just to blame others for your lack of willingness to learn the content 🤷‍♂️ )"

 

Strikes are downgrades from raids. Raid development stopped due to the "small audience they attract". Did you even know that? 

 

You do both strikes and raids, prove it? 

 

Like how when you can't come up with a rational argument, you make assumptions. Do you even know what you wrote, or is this your method of trying to change the subject from your losing arguments? 

 

Nothing to do with anything here? Well, again, I came up with facts, dev responses, events...  and you are here trying to deflect with your silly comments about gear and my "willingness to learn content". I've done it all in game, short of spvp which is horrible, and that's coming from a competitive team pvp player from long ago. How about you? 

 

Doesn't take much matter to differentiate between raids and other content, or should I post videos for you to learn the differences between strikes and raids? 

 

So what do you have left? More assumptions because you can't come up with anything coherent? 

   

Edited November 20, 2021 by Swagger.1459

[Linken.6345]

Yet back when they released raids paticipation was higher then expected.

 

Raid in MMOs are high-end content designed for the more hardcore player. However, from an analytics standpoint, the participation is higher than other games we’ve seen. This is likely due to the nature of our progression system in GW2.

http://dulfy.net/2016/03/05/gw2-developer-ama-on-reddit/

[Cyninja.2954]

16 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Easy to say, blatantly wrong in practice.
There may be some difference between NA and EU but go into the raid lobby every now and again and create a squad called "noob run all welcome"
See how long it takes you to find a full group of people.

I have done it multiple times over the years in my attempts to find a like minded group, I have waited into the hours range and never once got more than 4-5 people join the group, and never at the same time either as most just give up due to the waiting time.
Longest anyone stayed in the group was about 20 minutes.

The only time I ever managed to find a full groups of random's in the LFG was when raids first came out several years ago back when everyone was new to the content.
 

That's the thing, you don't know what I'm running nor what my builds are capable of.
You only know that they are custom builds and assume they are bad and that they bring nothing to the group based on that, because they are in your words as mentioned later in your post "scrub" builds.

For all you know my builds could be only a fair bit less effective than the go to meta builds and more than enough to beat the content, and I have beaten some raids with them so I know they're sufficient enough to succeed in at least some of the content.

Add to that most players don't use nor want to use 3rd party tools like arcdps either so a lot of them have no real idea what their DPS actually is in actual gameplay, which is always going to be much lower than the figures the golem provides because of the uptime difference.
And DPS is the main thing people will play there because it's what most of the group is made from and it's literally the easiest role.
Many average builds running full damage even when played to an average level will still output decent enough DPS to beat a raid so long as the player doesn't spend most of their time taking a dirt nap, the content is quite literally balanced around the average player's DPS output which is why it's still possible for a group of casuals who don't really know what they're doing to still beat raids after several attempts.
I quite literally watched my wife do that a few weeks ago with a complete group of first timers she found in a new guild she joined not long ago and she's as casual a player as they come and knows very little about Gw2's game mechanics.

Just to clarify why I didn't participate in the same run despite having the option to.
1. Most of the group were non English speakers that I couldn't communicate with nor understand which would have made things too awkward, my wife is bilingual but I am not.
2. I was preoccupied with another game that I was busy in at the time and wasn't about to stop what I was doing to play a different game that I wasn't in the mood to play at the time.
3. After years of failed attempts and negative experiences with many raiders, I've long given up on raids as a lost cause and no longer care enough to want to try anymore, effectively joining the masses of casuals who did the same before me for the same reasons.
Unless there is something Anet does to entice the casual community back to try saving raids then we just won't bother and will look to enjoy upcoming Strike Mission content instead.
 

The vast majority of "provides what is needed" in a raid group is just DPS.
Most players as I said above running glass canon stats that spam skills of CD can provide more than enough of that.
The problem is raiders don't want people who only contribute sufficient average dps, they want players who can hit 30-40K+ dps which frankly is speed run territory and well into excessive territory for any content in this game.
Raiders themselves admit this reality every time they argue casuals slow down the content thus more room for error being the reason they don't want to play with them.
A fair enough reason not to want them in your group if clearing the raid as fast as possible is what you are after.
If you say that element doesn't matter to you which some raiders have then neither should anyone's average DPS output in your group matter.
And there lies the truth about the bulk of the raiding community, it does matter to most of them and therefore the meta culture and standards of playing up to that culture is enforced by many raiders despite the fact that raids are balanced around the average and meta builds are not necessary to beat them.
 

That's quite an elitist thing to say, the "most custom builds are useless" part at least.

As for the rest it's like I said above, the only accurate and efficient way of checking that kind of data is with 3rd party software which the vast majority of players in Gw2 will never accept nor want to download and run on their computers.

If that kind of information is that important to participate in and beat raids (and it really isn't) then those kinds of tools should be provided in the game itself.
And no the "training golems" are not good enough and do not provide realistic DPS uptime figures for actual gameplay combat.
 

As I said, raids are balanced around the average player not the top tier DPS players, as is the entire Gw2 game.
What makes raids "difficult" and "challenging" are the mechanics of the raids and instant death factor which severely punishes players for mistakes.

For experienced raiders, raids become pretty much easy and routine.
It's not because you are hitting excessive DPS benchmarks, it's because you know and have so much experience with the mechanics of each raid.
 
An experienced raid group could for fun run a bunch of "scrub" builds and still beat raid content, it would just take longer.
 

Again you use this incorrect term "content requirements" 
It's raiders who demand people run meta builds and hit excessive DPS figures, not the content.

The only place I would agree with you on this is with support builds which are arguably the most important part of any raid group.
But DPS, no.. you don't need to be hitting 30-40K DPS to beat raids, you can succeed with the average range, plenty of people have proven this.
 

Yes, a tiny niche group that was so tiny it was literally the deciding factor for whether this content would continue getting support...

Sorry but I can't understand how you could say such a thing when even Teapot himself agrees that these players abandoning raids effectively doomed the content.
If you genuinely care about raids and want Anet to support them again then you desperately need the casuals to come back and boost the playerbase there, or it will never happen..
 

Incorrect.
I couldn't find people to play with in part because we are not an organised community like you raiders are, but mainly because most of the people that I wanted to play with give up on raids a long time ago and don't care enough about raids to want to try getting into them anymore.
And as I said above, I also no longer care enough to try getting into them either.

So raids lost yet another player who DID! have have an interest in raiding for a very long time, a lot longer than most of my casual peers did.
We are certainly not an "insignificant minority" of players, we were large enough of a playerbase that we were literally the deciding factor in whether this content lives with support or gets abandoned and dies.
We casuals doomed raids to when we give up on it, and ever since then your community has gotten smaller and smaller as other raiders abandoned it too.
 

Yes he does, and often times he does it to disprove and mock common attitudes held by other players like X/Y class/build sucks and is useless for raiding, proving those attitudes to be wrong.
That's one of the reasons I started regularly watching his content in fact.

Yes performance is enforced via the Meta.
Like I said so many times, there is a good portion of the raiding community that demands excessive levels of performance to even be in their groups.
The kind of performance you mainly get from meta builds so yes the meta is enforced by a number of players through personal preference performance requirements, not content requirements.

I'm not confusing the two points, my argument here is that there are many different builds out there that can provide the adequate DPS needed to beat raids.
They're just not wanted in many raid groups because many groups demand top tier DPS or very close to it.
Which as I said is not essential to beat the content and far surpasses the "content requirements" you keep mentioning.
If the high to top tier DPS was the "content requirements" as you suggest then no matter how good a raider you are, you would never be able to kill a raid boss with several minutes to spare on the timer.
You would constantly be in range of enrage on every kill.

Unless those players are aiming to learn support based roles then the only valuable thing they are learning really is the raid mechanics which I have always said are the most essential thing players need to hand on learn to raid.
All DPS players need to learn is the mechanics, apart from that it's hit the monster as much as possibly and don't die.
A laughably easy role once you know what you are doing, it's the raid communities unnecessary demands that they hit excessive DPS figures that entirely make this role so difficult for the causal players to get into, even in some training groups.

When groups train new raiders they do so with the intent of training players to a point where they would gladly have them in their own groups.
Therefore the preferences of the trainers does get passed on to the trainee's, because that's how they learned how to raid and who from.
This is part of what enforces the meta culture, because it's the most "efficient" way to raid and most raiders put a very high priority on efficiency even though it is not mandatory to be able to play and beat this content.
 

Yes most raiders assimilate into the meta culture and adopt the "efficient" way of playing raids.
And the ones who don't want to assimilate into that culture because they don't care if a raid takes them an extra  few minutes to beat can find no place in the community at all and get effectively gatekept out of it unless they do submit and assimilate.
Nobody is being brainwashed into submission here, it's just a simple case of those who didn't want to assimilate couldn't participate even if they were more than capable of beating the content despite their inefficient build/playstyle preference.

More like being forced to perform to unnecessary and excessive extremes and being told that those are required to beat the content when I know they are not.
Again this is where the meta culture is enforced through performance and it's not about the builds themselves but how you are expected to use them.

If I can average 15-23k dps on my own custom build but my group demands a minimum of 25-30K dps and then throws a build at me using weapons I don't normally use and elite spec mechanics and skills I am not familiar with then I can promise you that even if the build is capable of 35-40K DPS I will end up doing significantly less DPS than I was doing on my own build which was more than sufficient to beat the content.

I have literally seen arguments happen between 2 players over a 3rd players DPS because of a literal 2-3k difference in preference.
One player claiming the DPS was fine, another demanding the group kick said player for their DPS being 2-3k lower than what they personally expected everyone to be doing.
And this happened in a Strike Mission after a single wipe.
For the record too, we didn't kick the "low dps" player, the rest of the group which was mostly casual players did the right thing and refused to kick him, and we got the kill on the next attempt despite multiple people in the group playing deliberately less efficiently just to annoy the elitist player lol
 

I would reword that to:

"all it takes for a player to get into most raid groups is to bring the performance which a group desires or needs."

I would say that all it takes for players to succeed at raiding is to have prior knowledge and experience of the raid and it's bosses.
Yes there is a bare minimum support and DPS standard that raids requires, i'm not debating that.
What I am debating is that that standard is significantly lower and far more inclusive to more Gw2 players than what most raiders believe it to be.

For the vast majority of casuals who tried raiding and give up on it, it wasn't the enrage timers that killed them, it was the boss and instant death mechanics that they had no experience with and never managed to gain enough of.
Overcoming those is like 85-90% of beating all raids imo.
That last 10% is sufficient DPS uptime and the group simply surviving long enough to apply enough of it.

Yes there were a lot of good arguments being made on both sides.
Though some of them were also very charged and elitist at times as well.

As I said above, making someone switch to a build they are not familiar with, especially if that build has spec mechanics they have never played with is not "remotely useful" at all.
If anything it will cause them to underperform even more in many cases.

While it can be argued that "some people just want to do their thing and they care 0 about what the other 9 people in that squad would ask for." which I don't and never have denied does happen at times.

It can also be argued the other way around in that some people are so obsessed with everyone else playing to their demands and expectations that they they don't remotely care if whether the other 9 people in the squad are even enjoying the content anymore or even having any fun because of them.
If the content isn't fun then why bother right?.. this is one of the reasons so many casuals left in the first place.
But it wasn't the raid content that killed their fun, it was repeated negative experiences with players they describe as "toxic" and "elitist".

That's basically what I said, he critiques the raid community and the meta culture.

I never said he contests that there are certain squad requirements for raiding.
I did however imply in other posts that he and others have on multiple occasions proven that those requirements are lower that what many raiders would claim they are.

Hell Teapot proving scourge can carry a raid team basically proved that I was right all along when I was preaching that "Necro has very underrated and easily the best downed support capability in the game" and that "Necromancer is the ultimate safety net for group content in Gw2."
Opinions that were quite regularly contested for the record, hell some people would probably still contest them.

I respect people like Teapot and Nemesis who push off-meta builds and prove that the naysayers and elitists are often wrong and don't know as much as they think they do.
It's good to see those kinds of players knocked off their high horses every once in a while.

They don't have a choice but to once the off meta builds are proven to be as good or better than existing ones.

Eventually they will become the new meta though, as you said plenty of raiders already do run off meta builds themselves, likely because they're more fun to play or possibly even just better than existing meta's.

These metabuild websites have not been a point of contention though, I pin no blame on these sites.
It's always been the elitist attitudes of the die hard meta pushers and how they tend to treat other players like dirt for the most absurd reasons that I've had a problem with, not these sites and the builds themselves that they promote.
People are always the problem, never the tools they use.

 

I am going to summarize all of what you said with 1 quote:

 

"Many average builds running full damage even when played to an average level will still output decent enough DPS to beat a raid".

 

THAT is simply not true. If it were, we would not be having this discussion over and over. The average build comes no where near close to ANY required performance for raid content, unless te player read up, understood what synergies are needed and which weapons to use.

 

Again, if you and any player who believed this actually took the time to veryify or test the average builds run, you'd know this to not be true. Running berserker gear does NOT automatically place you in "acceptable dps" range. The choice of traits, weapons and utilities makes up 80% of a builds output. The choice of different weapon alone can already mean a loss of 50% or more output. 

Here is a polite request: take 5 minutes out of your day before responding, go to the training golem, put on all boons, all class benefits (notbusually run, but let's make this simple) and give to golem all conditions. Then go kill the golem and go see where your dps lands. 

Most custom builds ARE useless when measured against specific metrics (healing/support provided, boons, dps). That's not me being arrogant, that's me stating something which every player dealing with training new players has experienced. It's also confirmed exactly via the behavior which you attribute to "brainwashing", players who understand and improve at the game start to behave similarly and it's the reason so much focus when training new players goes into providing them proper builds.

 

EDIT:

just recalled the famous developer quote in relation to performance. The one were was stated that the average output of players is 1/10th of that of top tier players (again, AVERAGE performance, meaning at least half of the players are BELOW 1/10th of the output). That alone disproves any claim that the average build is sufficient. We literally have a developer quote to backup that claim. So, if you don't want to believe me, believe the developers with access to any metrics they want.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Nephalem.8921]

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

That's the thing, you don't know what I'm running nor what my builds are capable of.
You only know that they are custom builds and assume they are bad and that they bring nothing to the group based on that, because they are in your words as mentioned later in your post "scrub" builds.

For all you know my builds could be only a fair bit less effective than the go to meta builds and more than enough to beat the content, and I have beaten some raids with them so I know they're sufficient enough to succeed in at least some of the content.

There is no gear inspect. nobody would know what build you are running if it would be fine. 30k dps can be achieved with auto attacks only. If you cant do that your build is just bad.

Just post your builds here. I expect flamethrower engi or another meme.

Quote

Add to that most players don't use nor want to use 3rd party tools like arcdps either so a lot of them have no real idea what their DPS actually is in actual gameplay, which is always going to be much lower than the figures the golem provides because of the uptime difference.
And DPS is the main thing people will play there because it's what most of the group is made from and it's literally the easiest role.
Many average builds running full damage even when played to an average level will still output decent enough DPS to beat a raid so long as the player doesn't spend most of their time taking a dirt nap, the content is quite literally balanced around the average player's DPS output which is why it's still possible for a group of casuals who don't really know what they're doing to still beat raids after several attempts.
I quite literally watched my wife do that a few weeks ago with a complete group of first timers she found in a new guild she joined not long ago and she's as casual a player as they come and knows very little about Gw2's game mechanics.
 

Most raid and fractal players use arc. at least the ones who do the content frequently. I've 3-5manned some bosses. being able to kill a boss could be very much 3 experienced dps carrying the entire group. That happens quite a lot and you would never know without arc.

Raids are easy but not even spending 15min in training area and going instantly into group content is just very egoistic. been in a lot of w1 trainings where the majority of dps players race the supports.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Nephalem.8921

[Eponet.4829]

It wouldn't surprise me, people have been warning that the exclusivity of raids locking story behind group content as they were designed would kill them for years now, only to be met with "No easy mode, raids are healthy".

 

Raids, and especially the linking of wing 1-3 into the Lazarus MSQ plot are what initially made me lose interest in the game. When I tried playing through it, progression felt almost impossible due to being almost entirely filled with a carousel of people who would join, die, leave (or get kicked), to be replaced with new people, so the weakest link never got any better.

 

Before they came out, GW2 was by far my favourite game for the story, challenge mode story instances, soloing dungeons and making dungeon groups out of new players. Sure, it might have been less efficient to try to solo dungeons rather than get a full group of people who could burn down encounters without seeing a single mechanic, but the fact that a good number of them were possible, (With even more becoming available with just two people) made for a fun experience, especially the puzzle of figuring out which class, build and gearset to use for each specific encounter.

 

Now that I've been playing Final Fantasy 14, I've actually been enjoying the raids. Normal mode allows for experiencing the story early on rather than locking it, with the Savage modes that are more difficult being non-canonical expanded fights, and even on the more difficult content, at least on my data center, the playerbase seems to be a lot better about not giving up immediately, and while it's not ideal, PUGing Savage and EX trials are something that's actually possible as people actually get a chance to learn.

[Sobx.1758]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:43 PM, Teratus.2859 said:

Easy to say, blatantly wrong in practice.

Not only easy to say, but also easy to do. Absolutely not wrong in practice, as proved by... Practice and the random low/no req squads I frequently play with.

Quote

There may be some difference between NA and EU but go into the raid lobby every now and again and create a squad called "noob run all welcome"
See how long it takes you to find a full group of people.

Yeah, throw more insults and less information relevant to creating raiding squads in your squad's title and then keep wondering why people don't want to be called noobs. You don't need to use degrading language to play in low/no req squads. Actually, you very much just shouldn't.

Quote

I have done it multiple times over the years in my attempts to find a like minded group, I have waited into the hours range and never once got more than 4-5 people join the group, and never at the same time either as most just give up due to the waiting time.
Longest anyone stayed in the group was about 20 minutes.

The only time I ever managed to find a full groups of random's in the LFG was when raids first came out several years ago back when everyone was new to the content.

Honeslty, not much to say here. Sometimes you'll get people, maybe sometimes you won't. Random parties parties are random. There also might be some differences between the servers, but aren't you on EU?

 

@Swagger.1459 improve formatting, so it can be understood what you're quoting and what you're responding to, ty. Then I can provide you with full quotes instead of your cut out-of-context ones.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Swagger.1459]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not only easy to say, but also easy to do. Absolutely not wrong in practice, as proved by... Practice and the random low/no req squads I frequently play with.

Yeah, throw more insults and less information relevant to creating raiding squads in your squad's title and then keep wondering why people don't want to be called noobs. You don't need to use degrading language to play in low/no req squads. Actually, you very much just shouldn't.

Honeslty, not much to say here. Sometimes you'll get people, maybe sometimes you won't. Random parties parties are random. There also might be some differences between the servers, but aren't you on EU?

 

@Swagger.1459 improve formatting, so it can be understood what you're quoting and what you're responding to, ty. Then I can provide you with full quotes instead of your cut out-of-context ones.

The “formatting” was just fine. Are you having trouble following our conversation, or should I do another review? 

[Sobx.1758]

43 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

The “formatting” was just fine. Are you having trouble following our conversation, or should I do another review? 

Nah, the formatting is awful and inconsistent. You've posted a bunch of greyed out quotes, then wrote some one liner, then again something greyed out, but not a quote? Then some spaced out sentences, who knows responding to what and why they are separated. If you want to respond to my quote, then quote it and respond below it. Then another with response. Formatting in your previous post is just not coherent and I won't do the guessing work what tries to respond to which quote/post/whatever. I'm just informing you that it's not coherent, do with that whatever you want. 🤷‍♂️

Edited November 20, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Forum Moderator.3074]

Please I would like to remind you all to please be civil and avoid using posts to pick on each other.

[Vilin.8056]

On 11/19/2021 at 4:43 AM, Teratus.2859 said:

If I can average 15-23k dps on my own custom build but my group demands a minimum of 25-30K dps and then throws a build at me using weapons I don't normally use and elite spec mechanics and skills I am not familiar with then I can promise you that even if the build is capable of 35-40K DPS I will end up doing significantly less DPS than I was doing on my own build which was more than sufficient to beat the content.

You have made accusations based upon too many unrealistic IFs that doesn't even exist in this game.

I have pug raided since 2015, and I have hardly seen raiders reach beyond 25k in boss fights, generally 20k+ is considered pro-level, with the vast majority below that upon 15~18k. .

All raid squad on pugs only ask for 15k in average, a mere 40% of the meta's benchmark, and 9 out of 10 instances let you get away for 12k, if anyone have problem fulfilling that, the problem isn't in the custom build, it's simply how the custom build is made and played.

If anyone couldn't find a single build to output 15k damage - under full boon from his teamates - in his entire account, this game's challenge PvE contents is clearly not meant for him, and it has nothing to do with elitism.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Obtena.7952]

On 11/18/2021 at 3:51 AM, Teratus.2859 said:

"You need us more than we need you" (You meaning Raiders and Us/We meaning Casuals)

True words. Even though the protectionism and exclusiveness exhibited is likely just a small portion of instanced content regulars, that is usually the first exposure most casual players will have when venturing into instanced content. The result at this point should be obvious to everyone. 

Of course, everyone plays a part in this, no denying that either. Anet underestimated playerbase willingness to step into the content, hampered by their implementation. Also, a thin, visible and artificial barrier exists,  created by raiders insisting meta and expectations for 'improvement' and 'learning', making the content seem out of reach for most players. At that point, any slightly interested players have little reason to care about instanced content as it has almost no impact to their gaming experience ... unless they LIKE that challenge of breaking into it. 

To be frank, I think GW2 could exist simply based on LS maps, metas, and at worst, mini-dungeons ... the business case certainly does not hinge on whatever rewards raids are offering, or even fractals for that matter. 

One thing that IS worth acknowledging is that there is a section of the instanced content population doing LOTS of good things for the game as a whole, mainly with providing information about how the game actuall works; gear stats, etc and being willing to train the coachable players that want to break into the content ... it's just too bad those people are also a victim of the less open raiding populace and their behaviours. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Krzysztof.5973]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

True words. Even though the protectionism and exclusiveness exhibited is likely just a small portion of instanced content regulars, that is usually the first exposure most casual players will have when venturing into instanced content. The result at this point should be obvious to everyone. 

Of course, everyone plays a part in this, no denying that either. Anet underestimated playerbase willingness to step into the content, hampered by their implementation. Also, a thin, visible and artificial barrier exists,  created by raiders insisting meta and expectations for 'improvement' and 'learning', making the content seem out of reach for most players. At that point, any slightly interested players have little reason to care about instanced content as it has almost no impact to their gaming experience ... unless they LIKE that challenge of breaking into it. 

To be frank, I think GW2 could exist simply based on LS maps, metas, and at worst, mini-dungeons ... the business case certainly does not hinge on whatever rewards raids are offering, or even fractals for that matter. 

One thing that IS worth acknowledging is that there is a section of the instanced content population doing LOTS of good things for the game as a whole, mainly with providing information about how the game actuall works; gear stats, etc and being willing to train the coachable players that want to break into the content ... it's just too bad those people are also a victim of the less open raiding populace and their behaviours. 

That is so true! Anet should have never added instance content into the game! It was their fatal mistake to think so highly of their playerbase. Raids are too elitist for us. Let's all come together and press AA on some world boss. C'mon y'all. 

[Obtena.7952]

19 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

That is so true! Anet should have never added instance content into the game! 

Well, I certainly didn't say we should have never had it ... but you are now ... so obviously you either believe it, have a hard time understanding the simple written word or you just want to have a go. I'm not going to have a go with you and I don't believe your comprehension is that bad ... so that only leaves one option doesn't it. 

Whether you love instance content or hate it, the fact is clear ... it's not going to be successful without appealing to more than just the current numbers of raid-willing people. That's why they are no more raids in this game.  That's why we are getting strikes with different levels. Full stop. I also have no doubt that if THAT isn't successful, it to will go the way of the raid, or worse. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Cyninja.2954]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, I certainly didn't say we should have never had it ... but you are now ... so obviously you either believe it, have a hard time understanding the simple written word or you just want to have a go. I'm not going to have a go with you and I don't believe your comprehension is that bad ... so that only leaves one option doesn't it. 

Whether you love instance content or hate it, the fact is clear ... it's not going to be successful without appealing to more than just the current numbers of raid-willing people. That's why they are no more raids in this game.  That's why we are getting strikes with different levels. Full stop. I also have no doubt that if THAT isn't successful, it to will go the way of the raid, or worse. 

 

Agreed.

 

What I will add:

I believe the developers know how important working and played instanced content is. Both easy as well as, as they call it,  "aspirational content". Why else would they go out of their way to try to provide this type of content? Why spend the time to assure players that such content will be available?

 

Should the game fail on that front, well I doubt there will be much of a game after that. Just as much as I don't believe the game can live on only open world content without expansions.

 

From all flawed metrics we have access to, it is visible that all content in this game is niche, even open world content. Some might be less niche, but with clearing percentages of sub 20%, still niche.

 

A large amount of the more involved players dedicates time to multiple aspects of the game (spvp, wvw, story, open world, instanced content) and with each type of niche content which failes, the reason for those players to stick around dwindles.

 

The belief that this game can remain at a healthy player base long-term with only 1-2 types of niche content is pure folly at this point.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Zok.4956]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:51 AM, Teratus.2859 said:

Many of my arguments with raiders in the past has been about this exact thing, about people like me wanting to play and experience raids my own way, with my own builds with like minded people, and not be bullied and forced into playing them "your way".
And what I mean when i say playing raids "your way" I specifically mean I don't want to assimilate into the toxic meta culture that is enforced by a lot of players, and not just in raiding either.

But ... you can already do that. Just find 9 other players that are like minded and then play/raid with them.  And if there are "toxic" or "elitist" players in your group ... just kick them.  Do whatever you want. Yes, it could mean that you have to do some preparation before for organizing a group or guild (if there are no groups/guilds you could join). You can also ask in this forum, if there are other like minded players who want to raid with you.

[Zok.4956]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:43 PM, Teratus.2859 said:

Easy to say, blatantly wrong in practice.
There may be some difference between NA and EU but go into the raid lobby every now and again and create a squad called "noob run all welcome"
See how long it takes you to find a full group of people.

I have done it multiple times over the years in my attempts to find a like minded group, I have waited into the hours range and never once got more than 4-5 people join the group, and never at the same time either as most just give up due to the waiting time.
Longest anyone stayed in the group was about 20 minutes.

Add the ones that joined your group to your friends list (or guild) and ask them, if you could ask them again in the future. rinse and repeat at other days until you have enough players on your friends list that are online to be able to start a raid.

Players are impatient and will leave if they have to wait too long. Players underestimate how challenging a raid can be for 10  inexperienced players and leave after 1-2 fails.  Some players just want to be carried and will also leave your group after your first 1-2 fails. Thats normal. You can deal with this and continue and then you maybe can start raiding some day with like minded players or you can stop and complain on forum.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Zok.4956

[Astralporing.1957]

13 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

But ... you can already do that. Just find 9 other players that are like minded and then play/raid with them.  And if there are "toxic" or "elitist" players in your group ... just kick them. 

It doesn't work. For the most part, because people that actually do try that soon realize that they need to become more restrictive and less open-minded themselves if they do not want to continue failing. So, eventually you run into a dilemma, where in order to succeed tou end up having to join groups of people you originally never wanted to have anything with - and to become one of them (or to somehow manage to leech off them).

Generally, there's a lot of like-minded players that might want to group and do raids. There's next to none of such players that, when grouped together, would be able to actually clear those. Which is why the "toxic elitists" vs "toxic casuals" divide keeps propagating - and why it will never disappear as long as the content remains as it is now.

[Linken.6345]

40 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It doesn't work. For the most part, because people that actually do try that soon realize that they need to become more restrictive and less open-minded themselves if they do not want to continue failing. So, eventually you run into a dilemma, where in order to succeed tou end up having to join groups of people you originally never wanted to have anything with - and to become one of them (or to somehow manage to leech off them).

Generally, there's a lot of like-minded players that might want to group and do raids. There's next to none of such players that, when grouped together, would be able to actually clear those. Which is why the "toxic elitists" vs "toxic casuals" divide keeps propagating - and why it will never disappear as long as the content remains as it is now.

Ok so you understand why people have requirments as evident by this very post.

Maybe you could explain it to the ones who keep saying my random builds can do it just give me a chance. ( when infact they will be carried by the 6-9 others)

[Astralporing.1957]

17 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Ok so you understand why people have requirments as evident by this very post.

Maybe you could explain it to the ones who keep saying my random builds can do it just give me a chance. ( when infact they will be carried by the 6-9 others)

Obviously, because random builds won't do it (the 10x DPS difference between average and top is not a meme, but sad reality - and obviously the differences don't stop at DPS). TBH, even good builds in the hands of people that won't understand them, won't do that well. And, of course, learning the boss encounter itself might be trivial for some, but for others can be anything but easy (even assuming the same amount of effort put into it).

Yes, most people approaching the issue from the casuals' side don't understand that (hardly surprising, as even getting close to the knowledge that would let them realize that would probably require a slightly less casual approach in the first place). Of course, most people approaching it from the hardcore side also have trouble understanding why what they find so easy might not be so for others. Nor do they understand why many players do not want to cross the divide between casuals and hardcores for reasons other than "laziness".

That's another reason why i think the divide between "toxic elitists" and "toxic casuals" will not disappear and will be continuously being propagated by both old and new players alike.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Tails.9372]

21 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I also have no doubt that if THAT isn't successful, it to will go the way of the raid

There is no "if" here unless the story mode itself serves as a "T1" equivalent for whatever rewards the new content has to offer and even that depends on how demanding it ends up beeing. The way they still primarily advertise this content as "challenging" doesn't help either.