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Are raids really gone in EoD?


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Now that I've started to touch raids, I genuenly hope they are done. I'll settle for literally anything else other than new raid content.

Encounters? 10/10, no questions asked, would marry and have kids with them. Colorful, interesting, reasonably challenging on personal level.

Having to deal with 9 other people can kitten off. Having to deal with autistic requirements in pugs can kitten off. Having to schedule my life around a videogame just to make that content enjoyable can kitten off (even though it does become enjoyable). Weekly lockouts can kitten off.

If they put the same quality of encounters anywhere else, I'd play that stuff non-stop. Even strikes. Hope they actually become worth doing in EoD.

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You say a good percentage of folks raid, I'd argue it's less than spvp which is already most likely less than 5% of the active player base. Raids were just to overly non casual for a game that has bil

Idk man for me strikes are ways better than raids. Why ? Well cause of the community. The raid community seems to be Toxic af (even more toxic than the pvp one what is not so easy to be). You dont hav

Let's see what happens with strukes shall we?   My guess, if strike CMs are actually raid replacements/equivalent: - the players who managed to get into raids will manage just fine with

22 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It doesn't work. For the most part, because people that actually do try that soon realize that they need to become more restrictive and less open-minded themselves if they do not want to continue failing. So, eventually you run into a dilemma, where in order to succeed tou end up having to join groups of people you originally never wanted to have anything with - and to become one of them (or to somehow manage to leech off them).

Except it does. If someone makes a choice to change their requirements, it's nothing more than just that -their choice. "it doesn't work" only if you don't want it to work and change "your" own rules "you" previously claimed should be the norm. Apparently suddenly learning the content is enough to abandon the old convictions, seemingly just so one can claim the existance of the no/low req squads is unreasonable/impossible (despite the reality showing otherwise).

 

Sorry guys, you can be as hopelessly confused about it as you want, but your confusion doesn't make me wrong 🤷‍♂️ 

Edited by Sobx.1758
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3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Except it does. If someone makes a choice to change their requirements, it's nothing more than just that -their choice. "it doesn't work" only if you don't want it to work and change "your" own rules "you" previously claimed should be the norm.

I think you're mistaking people. I never claimed those rules should be the norm for those encounters. I am not trying to change people using requirements in LFG. I am well aware that "anything goes" does not, in fact, go anywhere at this difficulty level, and that those requirements in LFG do make sense. And that, while no-req groups can sometimes succeed, it's only by virtue of most people in them fulfilling at least some basic requirements anyway (because most of those that do not have stopped applying for content long ago - and for good reasons).

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Apparently suddenly learning the content is enough to abandon the old convictions, seemingly just so one can claim the existance of the no/low req squads is unreasonable/impossible (despite the reality showing otherwise).

See above. The no req squads that do not fail are filled with people with different convictions than those that OP shares (Edit: not OP, @Teratus.2859, as he was the one to whom @Zok.4956was initially responding). People with more casual approach should not apply, unless they have friends that can carry them. Or unless they would be willing to shed their normal playstyle at least for a while.

The only reason why you might think otherwise is because most of the people that do not fulfill reqs were (permanently) filtered out long before. And because even the supposedly open groups do run some level of filtering.

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Sorry guys, you can be as hopelessly confused about it as you want, but your confusion doesn't make me wrong 🤷‍♂️ 

The one that is being confused is you, seeing as you seem to mix several people together and somehow conflate their positions into one.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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28 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I think you're mistaking people. I never claimed those rules should be the norm for those encounters. I am not trying to change people using requirements in LFG. I am well aware that "anything goes" does not, in fact, go anywhere at this difficulty level, and that those requirements in LFG do make sense. And that, while no-req groups can sometimes succeed, it's only by virtue of most people in them fulfilling at least some basic requirements anyway (because most of those that do not have stopped applying for content long ago - and for good reasons).

"You" was meant to be understood as a generic you, not YOU in particular. In the context of last the posts in this comment chain, it's about people claiming they want to be able to play without bigger requirements or restrictions. Be it hypothetical players (like mentioned by you: "people that actually do try that soon realize that they need to become more restrictive") or actual players posting on this forum (like @Teratus.2859 in this thread: "people like me wanting to play and experience raids my own way, with my own builds with like minded people, and not be bullied and forced into playing them "your way" "). If someone says they want to play this way then they're free to do it by joining or creating appropriate squad.

Your claim saying "it doesn't work" is false and I know that because I also play in squads like that and don't see the issue. I sure do see a whole lot of claims on this forum saying that people keep getting kicked for any mistake, sub 95% benchmark dps or not playing meta builds, but that's just not true. I don't think I've seen anyone inspecting anyone's build nor getting kicked for suboptimal dps.

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See above. The no req squads that do not fail are filled with people with different convictions than those that OP shares (Edit: not OP, @Teratus.2859, as he was the one to whom @Zok.4956was initially responding). People with more casual approach should not apply, unless they have friends that can carry them. Or unless they would be willing to shed their normal playstyle at least for a while.

If someone doesn't want to improve then it's their choice. It still doesn't mean they need to play optimally or even touch some strict meta builds -because they don't.

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The only reason why you might think otherwise is because most of the people that do not fulfill reqs were (permanently) filtered out long before. And because even the supposedly open groups do run some level of filtering.

Like what filtering exactly?

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The one that is being confused is you, seeing as you seem to mix several people together and somehow conflate their positions into one.

No, I'm not. As I said the "you" in quotations was supposed to be the generic you and not literally your person. So no worries, since there's no confusion here on my part. The examples of what exactly I was talking about are above in this very post.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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38 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"You" was meant to be understood as a generic you, not YOU in particular.

There's no "generic you" here. There are different people with different opinions that you try to treat as the same person.

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In the context of last the posts in this comment chain, it's about people claiming they want to be able to play without bigger requirements or restrictions.

Yes. At least in part.

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Be it hypothetical players (like mentioned by you: "people that actually do try that soon realize that they need to become more restrictive") or actual players posting on this forum (like @Teratus.2859 in this thread: "people like me wanting to play and experience raids my own way, with my own builds with like minded people, and not be bullied and forced into playing them "your way" "). If someone says they want to play this way then they're free to do it by joining or creating appropriate squad.

They can. But if they do, if they'll really get other people like them in that squad, let's just say they are very likely to not go anywhere.

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Your claim saying "it doesn't work" is false and I know that because I also play in squads like that and don't see the issue.

And i have already explained to you why your personal experience doesn't really change anything here. You do not really play in squads like that. You may play with "like-minded people that want to experience raids in their own way and not be forced into playing "someone else's way", but those are not the same "like-minded people" Teratus is talking about, and your and your squadmates' way of  experiencing raids is almost certainly not the same as his way. How do i know that? Because if it were, he would not be here complaining.

Basically, some ways of experiencing raids and "playing your way" are better suited to raids, while some are not. You happen to be in the first group, but it does not cover everyone. The people that end up complaining about LFG restrictions are generally not part of that group at all. Because, again, if they were part of it, they would not have any issues, and would not be complaining.

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I sure do see a whole lot of claims on this forum saying that people keep getting kicked for any mistake, sub 95% benchmark dps or not playing meta builds, but that's just not true.

In this i agree. Those posts were really ridiculous, and nowhere close to the norm. Notice, though, that it does not mean there are no requirements at all - either stated outright, or silently assumed.

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I don't think I've seen anyone inspecting anyone's build nor getting kicked for suboptimal dps.

I have. Although this generally happens only after a group fails many times in a row, and there are either some obvious sources of failure, or the situation is bad overall. And i am sure your idea of what constitutes suboptimal dps is different than that of some other players.

Hint: having 50-60% of benchmarks is one thing, but i have seen people trying to raid with ~4k dps. In theoretically DPS spots.

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If someone doesn't want to improve then it's their choice. It still doesn't mean they need to play optimally or even touch some strict meta builds -because they don't.

In that i agree. It's just to many people the word "strict" means something else than to you. The differences between different gameplay styles in this game are so big that what to you is no limitation at all, for others may seem like some very harsh restrictions.

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Like what filtering exactly?

Let's say you end up in a group with extremely spotty boons, no cc, bad healing and dps at 4-8k range. What will you do? If your answer is not "continue failing over and over again till they give up", then you're already doing some filtering out, even if you don't think you do.

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No, I'm not. As I said the "you" in quotations was supposed to be the generic you and not literally your person. So no worries, since there's no confusion here on my part.

Well, you conflated the position of someone that doesn't seem to understand why people use rquirements and filtering in their groups (and wants it gone) with someone that understands that it is for the most part unavoidable. So, no wonder you can't make heads or tails out of it - those are not the same positions at all.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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On 11/22/2021 at 10:48 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

It doesn't work. For the most part, because people that actually do try that soon realize that they need to become more restrictive and less open-minded themselves if they do not want to continue failing.

Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. My guess is, that most groups will fail.

But even the fails can have a good outcome if players experience themselves, that the dedication and skill level that is required for raids is quite different to the one that is required for doing i.e. open world bosses.

And maybe those players then learn, that meta raid comps/gear/etc are not some oppressing rules created by toxic elitists, but kind of guides/collective wisdom to make it easier to be successful in this type of content.

Edited by Zok.4956
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21 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. My guess is, that most groups will fail.

But even the fails can have a good outcome if players experience themselves, that the dedication and skill level that is required for raids is quite different to the one that is required for doing i.e. open world bosses.

And maybe those players then learn, that meta raid comps/gear/etc are not some oppressing rules created by toxic elitists, but kind of guides/collective wisdom to make it easier to be successful in this type of content.

If 6 years of raids didn't make it happen, i sincerely doubt the future would suddenly be different.

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2 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. My guess is, that most groups will fail.

But even the fails can have a good outcome if players experience themselves, that the dedication and skill level that is required for raids is quite different to the one that is required for doing i.e. open world bosses.

And maybe those players then learn, that meta raid comps/gear/etc are not some oppressing rules created by toxic elitists, but kind of guides/collective wisdom to make it easier to be successful in this type of content.

That's part of the issue: If raid-reluctant players DO learn that the game becomes easier for them based on that experience, that's not necessarily a good outcome because many players in that group aren't looking to change up their gear or 'learn to play' to optimize for instanced content. They just dump the content as "not being able to play how they want" and move on. Basically, it's counter to their philosophy on playing the game, which is part of the idea that sold them on the game in the first place.

Strikes has hope though, because the difficulty levels should change that if done properly. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's part of the issue: If raid-reluctant players DO learn that the game becomes easier for them based on that experience, that's not necessarily a good outcome because many players in that group aren't looking to change up their gear or 'learn to play' to optimize for instanced content. They just dump the content as "not being able to play how they want" and move on. 

Strikes has hope though, because the difficulty levels should change that if done properly. 

If only "They just dump the content as "not being able to play how they want" and move on. ". It's more likely they go to the forums and/or their bubble complaining about toxic elitist raiders, a mysterious arbitrarily meta etc. 

If people that are so fixated on their playstyle and unwilling to learn/improve/adapt- would just go and find their niche and have fun there and not bother those that enjoy different things and playstyles- we wouldn't have this kind of threads over and over again.
Guess I'm just too old for that "everything has to cater to me special snowflake" mindset. That's like if I'd go to the WvW forums and complain about getting stomped more often than not when I just hop in every now and then to get some quick daily achievements done and getting smashed by passionate roamers while running around in glass-canon raid build...

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9 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

Guess I'm just too old for that "everything has to cater to me special snowflake" mindset. 

Well, that's again the issue here ... the game was marketed in a way that it indicates it would do exactly that. The idea that people can 'play how they want' does cater to the 'special snowflake' mindset. Again, part of the big problem with current instanced group content is that Anet underestimated how many people actually did embrace this philosophy and failed to implement group content in a way that adheres to that philosophy. 

Let's be clear though, I'm massively against anything that pushes 'THE' way to play the game. I want Anet to stick to it's ideals ... why? Because if endgame content is going to be successful in this game, we need some of those snowflakes to play it. 

 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, that's again the issue here ... the game was marketed in a way that it seems to do exactly that. The idea that people can 'play how they want' does cater to the 'special snowflake' mindset. Again, part of the big problem with current instanced group content is that Anet underestimated how many people actually did embrace this philosophy. 

 

Where exactly did they market GW2 as "you can play how you want, yet master every content"?

I remember them marketing that there's no holy trinity, that it's very casual friendly (which it really is), that classes are not fixated on one playstyle and so on. I have yet to see an GW2 add stating "Throw together any gear with any traits and you will still succed at everything the game has to offer by just smashing random buttons." 

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20 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

Where exactly did they market GW2 as "you can play how you want, yet master every content"?

I'm not falling into some argument trap you are setting here. What I said is true: Those 'snowflakes' that you think should bugger off to find their own niche content ... that's the wrong mindset. Anet needs those snowflakes to play group content for it to be successful, whether you think the game is meant to be play how you want ... or not. That's why there aren't anymore raids being developed. That's why we are getting strikes with difficulty levels. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

They just dump the content as "not being able to play how they want" and move on. Basically, it's counter to their philosophy on playing the game, which is part of the idea that sold them on the game in the first place.

Pretty much this, many people play for the gameplay and if the gameplay they play the game for is unviable / unwanted (or even punished by the game (e.g. ranged classes playing ranged vs. Braham in DS)) in certain types of content than it's only natural that they avoid playing the content in question.

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Strikes has hope though, because the difficulty levels should change that if done properly. 

Highly questionable, like I said it mainly depends on whether or not the story encounter counts as the "difficulty levels" they currently announced only go upwards from what we have rn and if most people can't even bring themselves to play the current ones then the introduction of a "raid level" difficulty is not going to change that.

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18 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

If people that are so fixated on their playstyle and unwilling to learn/improve/adapt- would just go and find their niche and have fun there and not bother those that enjoy different things and playstyles- we wouldn't have this kind of threads over and over again.

Then perhaps it's the time to remove the incentives that keep making people do that.

I mean, OW legendary armor alone would have done wonders with that.

Anet keeps pushing people into higher-difficulty (and different playstyle) niche modes all the time. One should not be surprised when most of those people, after "succesfully" getting pushed there, start up asking for those modes to be adjusted to them.

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19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's part of the issue: If raid-reluctant players DO learn that the game becomes easier for them based on that experience, that's not necessarily a good outcome because many players in that group aren't looking to change up their gear or 'learn to play' to optimize for instanced content. They just dump the content as "not being able to play how they want" and move on.

This is absolutely true, but not nessecarily a problem. In the end not all content needs to be for anyone.

(And i know the devquote, you dont have to bring it up)

19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Basically, it's counter to their philosophy on playing the game, which is part of the idea that sold them on the game in the first place.

The bigger problem is however, that to accomadate that idea we need to gut lots of the buildcraft. In the end play how you want can be seen in two ways.

A) All playstyles will always be competive to some degree.

B) You can make whatever playstyle you want.

 

But these two are in direct opposition to eachother, as the more buildcraft options their are (allowing B to be a thing) increase the amount of uncompetive playstyles.

 

In my opinion GW2 tried to be type B, evident from the amount of buildcraft their is in the core game. But it turned out that it became more perceived as type A over time. So the question is, should the game be more its original vision, or become more like it is perceived.

 

In the end, the addition of strike cms in EoD suggests to me that they are moving away from A, but we'll see how it turns out.  

19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Strikes has hope though, because the difficulty levels should change that if done properly. 

We will see, because it they add some reward people want behind cms, all the same posts will appear again.

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21 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

We will see, because it they add some reward people want behind cms, all the same posts will appear again.

 

Exactly, and any players who were having issues with this content in the past, which are holding their breath that their past approach will suddenly work, will be up in arms again.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

This is absolutely true, but not nessecarily a problem. In the end not all content needs to be for anyone.

Except it is, not nessecarily for the player that doesn't like the content but for those who do and by vehemently opposing every kind of compromise "the other side" comes up with they ultimately only shoot themselves. Sure, the average casual player doesn't have to play raids which is ok but A-Net doesn't have to make content people generally don't care about (and thus they don't) and now the players left with the actual issues are those who do like to raid and want more of them as they don't get any.

2 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

We will see, because it they add some reward people want behind cms, all the same posts will appear again.

If they add rewards people want behind regular strike missions "all the same posts will appear again", no CM required.

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4 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Except it is, not nessecarily for the player that doesn't like the content but for those who do and by vehemently opposing every kind of compromise "the other side" comes up with they ultimately only shoot themselves. Sure, the average casual player doesn't have to play raids which is ok but A-Net doesn't have to make content people generally don't care about (and thus they don't) and now the players left with the actual issues are those who do like to raid and want more of them as they don't get any.

Their is a pretty big difference between the notion that we need some minimal amount of people participatinjg in a type of content and needing the majority of people being interested in it. (I meant, not for everyone)

4 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

If they add rewards people want behind regular strike missions "all the same posts will appear again", no CM required.

Thats entirely possible yes.

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