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There is no in-game way to know if 2s of cripple is better than or equal to 1/4s of daze. If you're doing like a t1 fractal and trying to tell people to use CC they're probably not going to know the differences by looking at the wiki in a short amount of time. It's pretty reasonable for new players to learn what cc is and then do the worst skills they have for it because the game ultimately never teaches you much about how CC scales. It's also not information you can really learn without spending a lot of time looking up specific bosses and comparing your cc skills to each other.

Does anyone know off the top of their head how many seconds of blind you need to break the T2 version of Ensolyss? It's a trick question, blind is too weak to break most bars on it's own but on the wiki it's the very first condition mentioned (along with chilled) as having a CC effect.

I've had a lot of t4 groups not know they can use the launch skill to break Arkk because they expect the HB and Alacgade to do all the cc. It's part of learning those classes but you go down from t4 scale and fewer and fewer people are bar breaking very effectively.

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So now, instead of looking on 'tooltip' we refer people to WIKI!  WOW!

Hello Gamers! How it's possible that patch after patch and we haven't seeing any addition to the skills regarding 'break bar'?! How the 'newbies' will know which skill to use if those skills have

Well, you can still figure it out while playing the game. It’s not that difficult, just use CC skills. The tool tips show you what cc the skills do. So it basically already is in the tool tip. 

19 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

There is no in-game way to know if 2s of cripple is better than or equal to 1/4s of daze. If you're doing like a t1 fractal and trying to tell people to use CC they're probably not going to know the differences by looking at the wiki in a short amount of time. It's pretty reasonable for new players to learn what cc is and then do the worst skills they have for it because the game ultimately never teaches you much about how CC scales. It's also not information you can really learn without spending a lot of time looking up specific bosses and comparing your cc skills to each other.

Does anyone know off the top of their head how many seconds of blind you need to break the T2 version of Ensolyss? It's a trick question, blind is too weak to break most bars on it's own but on the wiki it's the very first condition mentioned (along with chilled) as having a CC effect.

I've had a lot of t4 groups not know they can use the launch skill to break Arkk because they expect the HB and Alacgade to do all the cc. It's part of learning those classes but you go down from t4 scale and fewer and fewer people are bar breaking very effectively.

Do you have a proposal for a wiki improvement? That is something that is doable.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar

When people say CC they mean hard CC. All hard CC is clearly delineated on the defiance bar page. If something is wrong you can edit it or you can post on the talk page and someone will fix it.

Really the defiance bar value of hard CC should be listed on the tooltip and players shouldn't have to guess the enemy defiance bar (HP bars used to not have a percentage as well), optional if need be to cut down on extra text.

Ultimately I think it's all due to defiance bars not being in the original iteration of the game. It used to be https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unshakable

Edited by Infusion.7149
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5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Do you have a proposal for a wiki improvement?

I don't think the page as is can be improved, it more likely needs to be rewritten if we're trying to make it immediately useful to new players like a guide. Even then it may not be possible because what would be most useful is being able to tell a new player roughly how much of a bar is eaten by a skill as a percentage. That depends on the boss and the durations applied by some skills. I know as an experienced player we need hard CC, I know which skills are a lot or a little. The best the wiki could offer is a list the CC skills by a lot or a little and ignore all the rest of the details if our goal is trying to make it into a quick guide. All those tables don't make for a quick reference so the depth the wiki provides isn't very useful for that purpose. They ask you to spend time trying to compare skills to each other, which is more useful if you're build crafting.

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Really the defiance bar value of hard CC should be listed on the tooltip and players shouldn't have to guess the enemy defiance bar (HP bars used to not have a percentage as well), optional if need be to cut down on extra text.

Yeah it should be listed in the skill tool tip. Those would be the most useful in game changes for showing players what skills to use and how many times they need to use them.

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11 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

So now, instead of looking on 'tooltip' we refer people to WIKI! 
WOW!

Honestly, how do you think with the amount of information in a small tooltip wil be enough to describe how soft CC and hard CC work do chip off a Defiance bar? ANet have integrated a chat command where players can directly open a link to GW2 wiki with "/wiki" and add either a link to items [SHIFT + left click] or in plain text get to wiki to search for what ever player want to know after /wiki command.

I dislike to have more then one "page" in a tooltip which some skills have to describe second or third feature of a skill as it is not enough space to show it all in one popup which tooltip is in this game when you hover with cursor over a skill.

 

On wiki there is also information about how some patches might  have changed how skills work or conditions (for soft CC) or even how hard CC where reduced in or even removed as they where to powerful in different areas of this game. All that information would not fit into any tooltip in game.

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10 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

You mean the same "light up" effect that's over your combo finishers, too? Often they're one and the same -- finisher and CC -- so they'll just be highlighted the whole fight...

GW2's never done a good job of communicating with the player what's meant to be going on.

It wouldn't help much to have too many things flashing to indicate what to do either because we can also control what part of UI that will be active (show) or hidden depending on settings in Options for UI elementes including our skillbars. In that case those player will either miss out on seeing highlights or just be annoyed when things on each skills start to flash during combat.

 

There is a limit how any Devs can design UI elements that will teach players to actually learn how things work in this game when most players aren't interested to take any time to read or search for information themselves. Don't know how many times in map chat that there have been somebody asking about things that they could have found out on GW2 wiki and get surprised that there is a GW2 wiki that documents most things.

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I think the OP was way too aggressive in their post and responses but they do raise valid points.

 

Defiance bar:

For new players it really is confusing and learning through trial and error when the rest of the game is handheld makes it sort of unequal. Yes they can use the wiki but that takes time to rely on that. I did read somewhere that devs were planning to to make the image/text of cc within a tooltip blue to help make those skills stand out. It might have happened and I didn't notice though which brings me to my next point. For long time players, some still don't know how to work a breakbar or which skills to use. At a certain point you have to stop blaming players and admit that it's not exactly clear in the game.

 

Home instance nodes:

Whoever decided on the layout of the nodes needs a smack. You can choose your preferred home instance but each of them have a few finicky spots to get to. I would love to see an update where we can move our nodes to designated spots in the home instance. I think free placement would create all sorts of nightmares but a choice for players where to plant each node would be really appreciated.

Edited by Turial.1293
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13 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

Hello Gamers!
How it's possible that patch after patch and we haven't seeing any addition to the skills regarding 'break bar'?!
How the 'newbies' will know which skill to use if those skills have not a single information about break bar?

A new expansion on the way and one of the CORE mechanics of the game has no information on skills over several years? how?
The devs are unable to add a line with a icon on every skill saying 'break bar'? (UNBELIEVABLE)

Another issue at least for me is:
Is the home instance some kind of labyrinth? 
For god sake spawn things on one location, its very hard to keep looking for things in the groove instance ¬¬ (I'm annoyed by this)
You know how many time I lost tryna find the crops? 🤣🤣🤣

As a newbie, here is how I learn thing : Google.
Never had problem with break bar, when I saw one 1st, I type "gw2 blue bar" and get the solution.

All mmorpg have more information from player than from game, it's a part of the discovery and social aspect of these type of game. If someone expect mmorpg to teach you everything they're in the wrong type of game.

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1 hour ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

It wouldn't help much to have too many things flashing to indicate what to do either because we can also control what part of UI that will be active (show) or hidden depending on settings in Options for UI elementes including our skillbars. In that case those player will either miss out on seeing highlights or just be annoyed when things on each skills start to flash during combat.

 

There is a limit how any Devs can design UI elements that will teach players to actually learn how things work in this game when most players aren't interested to take any time to read or search for information themselves. Don't know how many times in map chat that there have been somebody asking about things that they could have found out on GW2 wiki and get surprised that there is a GW2 wiki that documents most things.

They could put the little dragon icon (the thing that shows up on a breakbar that turns into an orange shield when broken) on the skills that deal breakbar damage. Give it a tooltip that says "deals CC damage to champions with breakbars" when it's hovered over.

 

As for asking in map chat: that's a core aspect of an MMO. It's the social side of things, which GW2 sorely lacks. So, so often someone asks a question in mapchat that nobody responds to, or they get a reply of "google it". How off-putting is that to players? Every MMO has had people helping people out in map chat (even RIFT), but it's GW2 that stands alone in being anti-social and vacant. The wiki should be for people who want to know before they do, which is exactly how i prefer it...but most people prefer to do, and figure it out as they do. That's why so many people simply don't know -- as well as being the reason things like "apps" and stuff are all tailored to be as dumbed down as possible, so anyone can use it...

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20 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

The only thing Anet could do further would be like blinking indicators on skills when you have a mob with an active (blue) breakbar up. Like maybe a yellow blinking outline for soft CC and a blue blinking outline for hard CC.

+

12 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

A QOL visual aid may actually help with the CC.

I think Anet should consider making CC effects in the toolbar a unique and vibrant colour to indicate that this effect is a CC and will deal damage to break bars.

+

10 hours ago, wolfsblut.9435 said:

The could simply highlight all CC skills when one hits a target that actually has a defiance bar active.

+

7 hours ago, Turial.1293 said:

I did read somewhere that devs were planning to to make the image/text of cc within a tooltip blue to help make those skills stand out. It might have happened and I didn't notice though which brings me to my next point. For long time players, some still don't know how to work a breakbar or which skills to use. At a certain point you have to stop blaming players and admit that it's not exactly clear in the game.

+

6 hours ago, Friday.7864 said:

The responsible thing would be to add some CC info or indicators to skills.
It's a core mechanic after all.

+

6 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

They could put the little dragon icon (the thing that shows up on a breakbar that turns into an orange shield when broken) on the skills that deal breakbar damage.

This feature is already in the game. If you have any skills with crowd-control effects in your skillbar and an NPC, for example a boss, activates its breakbar, those skills flash. It is a pulsing effect, telling the player "use me next please." A veteran probably misses this visual effect easily. But especially a new player, who spends more time looking at their break-bar would definitely get it. 

Edited by HnRkLnXqZ.1870
edited to reduce rage
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1 hour ago, Friday.7864 said:

The responsible thing would be to add some CC info or indicators to skills.
It's a core mechanic after all.

But there are, you just need to read them. When a Skill says "knockback" you know it knocks back, so it's a cc-Skill. Same with "Float", same with "pull" same with all the other effects. What do you and the OP want? A seizure inducing flashing arow covering half the screen pointing to your cc-skills with bells and horns to make you deaf as well?

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15 minutes ago, lokh.2695 said:

But there are, you just need to read them. When a Skill says "knockback" you know it knocks back, so it's a cc-Skill. Same with "Float", same with "pull" same with all the other effects. What do you and the OP want? A seizure inducing flashing arow covering half the screen pointing to your cc-skills with bells and horns to make you deaf as well?

 

Yes, but some indication as to how much breakbar damage a skill does would be appreciated. For example, Bull's Charge does more breakbar damage than Backbreaker, which in turn does more than Staggering Blow.

There's nothing in the skill descriptions that indicates this, and the first two are the exact same kind of CC with the same duration KD (or even more for Backbreaker if the target is Weakened), but with different breakbar damage.

And on top of that, there are certain bosses where standard CC will do FAR less than other, event-specific forms of control (Kodan Trials in Bjora for example often require event specific items to be thrown instead of just normal CC). Yet telegraphing of this information is less than ideal.

Edited by Mungrul.9358
Clarification
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21 minutes ago, lokh.2695 said:

But there are, you just need to read them. When a Skill says "knockback" you know it knocks back, so it's a cc-Skill. Same with "Float", same with "pull" same with all the other effects. What do you and the OP want? A seizure inducing flashing arow covering half the screen pointing to your cc-skills with bells and horns to make you deaf as well?

So why are we still having issues with people not knowing what CC is and how to CC if everything is so crystal clear?
You put a "CC skill" in skill description and all you have to do is say "use CC skills to break blue bar". CC damage being listed is optional but would also be useful. You can keep your seizure inducing arrows and horns tyvm.

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1 hour ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

While we're on the subject of breakbars, can anyone explain to me how Three-Toed Tootsie's one works?

As soon as you break it, Tootsie becomes immune to CC then scarpers again. It seems you have to do this a few times before you can finally kill it, but there's no explanation anywhere of exactly what the process is.

I can only speculate, but if one goes by that GW2 had Unshakeble on bosses and some important NPCs before HoT came out, which changed this into Defiance bar system we have today, it is most likely that Three-Toed Tootsie is a left over from that time (Silverwastes and Dry Top maps where added before HoT content where released).

That Bird will have Determined as a phase where it is protected against all damage (incomming strike and condition damage), but it will not heal itself so it will gradually have less Health Pool for each time players can catch up to that bird and do some more damage before it start over to run around.

Condition Damage will continue to do damage when it will be invulnerable, so a lot of damage from condition that have enough duration through this phase will also reduce its HP.

This mechanic is most likely to avoid that a large enough zerg can kill it too fast and force a zerge to run/move after it until it will make a stop and player can do damage again, this also make it important to be in range for player to be able to do enough damage until next phase where it will run around in circle of that area again (this Bird disapear after some time if it is not killed in time which make it a time critical element).

Before mount existed this Bird where also hard to catch up to and lash out damage in time, if players didn't have someone with Swiftness or Superspeed to provide for themselves and group. I don't think we had Quickness or Alactry at that time so that Bird where more damanding to kill just by simple mechanic that block all damage application (technically the same process we have today with Defiance bar where all inc damage will be blocked until Defiance bar have been broken and reset the process where there is a short time window to apply more damage).

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2 minutes ago, Friday.7864 said:

So why are we still having issues with people not knowing what CC is and how to CC if everything is so crystal clear?
You put a "CC skill" in skill description and all you have to do is say "use CC skills to break blue bar". CC damage being listed is optional but would also be useful. You can keep your seizure inducing arrows and horns tyvm.

Because people don't read what their skills do and no amount of seizure inducing arrows will change that.

 

16 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

 

Yes, but some indication as to how much breakbar damage a skill does would be appreciated. For example, Bull's Charge does more breakbar damage than Backbreaker, which in turn does more than Staggering Blow.

There's nothing in the skill descriptions that indicates this, and the first two are the exact same kind of CC with the same duration KD (or even more for Backbreaker if the target is Weakened), but with different breakbar damage.

And on top of that, there are certain bosses where standard CC will do FAR less than other, event-specific forms of control (Kodan Trials in Bjora for example often require event specific items to be thrown instead of just normal CC). Yet telegraphing of this information is less than ideal.

It would be nice to have those numbers in-game, that's true.

Edited by lokh.2695
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16 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

So now, instead of looking on 'tooltip' we refer people to WIKI! 
WOW!

"Now"? This has been the case since 2012. :classic_wink:

Here's the respective information, by the way: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

Also, don't forget that the upcoming expansion will finally have a decent tutorial area where things like CC get explained to newbies. Yes, I agree, this should have been in the core game on release.

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I don't think making everything on the skillbar flicker any time it can be useful is a good solution. The good solution would be having in starter (core or expansion) zones what we'll have in the initial EoD zone: arenas+npcs explaining mechanics. That's about it. Even easier to do would be just throwing it as one of the level up pop-up spelling out "what break bar is" and how you break it with "crowd control effects", as well as listing crowd control effects. We don't need a constant light vomit to explain mechanics to the players.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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19 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If you'd like to know specifics, then the wiki is a good resource.  But how oblivious does one need to be to reach endgame without ever noticing that blue bar and what it does?  Do you need a tutorial for the health bar, too?

To be fair, it took me until LWS3 or some crap to realize the break bar existed and fuzzily what it did.  It didn't inhibit me from killing anything directly, so I assumed I was doing what I needed to do.  I, like the OP do not subscribe to the whole "wiki it" idea, so until the game directly tells me why, despite the (apparent?) rules of defiance bars, there are mobs will not break to certain cc, I'm gonna keep on plugging on like a pleb.  Can't be that hard to have ONE interaction that educates folks on one of the most important encounter features of the game.

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7 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

This feature is already in the game. If you have any skills with crowd-control effects in your skillbar and an NPC, for example a boss, activates its breakbar, those skills flash. It is a pulsing effect, telling the player "use me next please." A veteran probably misses this visual effect easily. But especially a new player, who spends more time looking at their break-bar would definitely get it. 

I don't agree that they would "definitely get it"

If anything if I were a new player I would find that very confusing..
Why is this skill flashing sometimes?
Ok I used it but what did it actually do?.. and why didn't that (insert effect here) happen like normal?

It's just not clear enough and it's far far too situational to pay attention to.

If Anet recoloured CC effect icons and give these skills a description in the same colour saying that this skills and effects inflict damage to breakbars, players would be able to see that information constantly, research it and would be more likely to ask questions like "what is a break bar" and "What do those purple skills do"?

Most new players playing say.. a Ranger with a Longbow will look at skills like Point Blank Shot and just think, oh this skill does more damage if enemies are close and pushes them away.. cool.
They won't get any indication that the skill is a CC or that they should use it on breakbars.
The biggest thing they will take from that is that the skill does more damage at close range.
Something as simple as making the knockback icon purple will make a new player think, "this skill is different from the others" and that is important to get them asking questions and learning what those differences are.

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13 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's the dig ... why would a new player know that's where to get that information or that it's even something they should ask about in the first place? As long as they see they are able to complete content and not know about 'breakbar' ... it's weird to presume it would trigger them to investigate.

You hover over the bar and it tells you that the enemy will be vulnerable while defiance is broken and it also mentions defiance a second time.

Then you could /wiki defiance or https://www.google.com/search?q=guild+wars+2+defiance

Maybe you didn't go that far. You just noticed a blue bar that shows up sometimes when fighting stuff https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=guild wars 2 blue bar

or /m /s /d /p /l /s /g "what is that blue bar that sometimes shows up on enemies?"

It is true that a person who has no interest in learning or improve probably won't know anything but if you apply that same attitude to the rest of the game then how is anyone supposed to know anything about anything?

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11 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

that would tank the servers on a unprecedented level. and if people were interested, they would had found out on their own.

fact is: it is a boring mechanic, and it prevents players from using the skills they prefer

There is no need to involve the server for that. It can all be done client side.

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