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End of Dragon feels like a break of the lore


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Shiro's deathcry petrified the Echovald Forest and solidified the Jade Sea. In End of Dragons the forest is back alive again, but the Jade Sea is still solid and powered by dragons ? Really ? Abbadon was behind Shiro, not a Dragon. And the  Jade Sea should have liquified again along with the revitalization of the forest. It'll be very interesting how Anet will make the actual setting fit with the lore.

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I've commented on this difference in reversion between the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest multiple times as well. But I doubt Arenanet is ever going to tell us why they reverse at different speeds, if they even acknowledge this thematic.

After all, they are excellent at ignoring player concerns.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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Echovald has 250 or so years of 'new growth' on top of the petrified stuff. Ever trim the grass back from the edges of a sidewalk? Imagine letting it go for 250 years! As for the petrified trees and other objects, they've been subject to weathering over that same amount of time. We don't know what type of stone these things there were turned into. It's not out of the question that a lot could have eroded away.

 

Dunno about the Jade Sea.

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In the jade sea preview stream when they go into that little jade cave on the skiff they mention that you might find answers to the questions of whether the jade is melting and whats going on with that, so im sure there is an explination. Whether that explination will satisfy the habitually unsatisfieable is another question

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One thing about the Jade Sea that just occurred to me -- it seems like the quarry areas where they've dug down into the jade should have filled up with water. Which in turn begs the question, where did all the new water (aka rain) drain to after the Jade Sea was, ya know, jaded?

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1 minute ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

One thing about the Jade Sea that just occurred to me -- it seems like the quarry areas where they've dug down into the jade should have filled up with water. Which in turn begs the question, where did all the new water (aka rain) drain to after the Jade Sea was, ya know, jaded?

It's possible that the Luxon and other life forms on the Jade Sea used to drink it.

After all, they had to drink something.

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Well, not just rain, but all the streams and rivers that flowed into the Jade Sea. All that water would have to go somewhere.

For example -- fill up your bathtub. Now turn the water in the tub to jade, and keep the faucet running. What happens?

Edited by Tachenon.5270
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16 hours ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

Well, not just rain, but all the streams and rivers that flowed into the Jade Sea. All that water would have to go somewhere.

For example -- fill up your bathtub. Now turn the water in the tub to jade, and keep the faucet running. What happens?

 

All that happened was my mum got angry at me for flooding  the bathroom. Thanks for that.

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17 hours ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

Well, not just rain, but all the streams and rivers that flowed into the Jade Sea. All that water would have to go somewhere.

For example -- fill up your bathtub. Now turn the water in the tub to jade, and keep the faucet running. What happens?

I was thinking this during the stream, there should be a lot of smaller lakes on the jade sea, in the areas between the waves where rain and run-off would accumulate.

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19 hours ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

Echovald has 250 or so years of 'new growth' on top of the petrified stuff. Ever trim the grass back from the edges of a sidewalk? Imagine letting it go for 250 years! As for the petrified trees and other objects, they've been subject to weathering over that same amount of time. We don't know what type of stone these things there were turned into. It's not out of the question that a lot could have eroded away.

 

Dunno about the Jade Sea.

That's my thinking too. We saw the start of that process in GW1 - the petrified trees were still stone but new plants and trees were growing on and between them, just like they grow on buildings and concrete in real life cities. It's harder to tell from a live stream than looking around the map yourself but it seems like what we've got now is a continuation of that process.

There was never any guarentee either would turn back. The Luxons and the Kurzicks hoped they would of course, and there were rumours - people saw puddles of water on top of the jade (which as mentioned in this thread could be rain) and some claimed to have seen movement deep under the jade which looked like water. Likewise there was new growth in the Echovald forest - on top of the petrified trees. But it never went any further than that and we never got any indication that it would, only those rumours.

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18 hours ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

One thing about the Jade Sea that just occurred to me -- it seems like the quarry areas where they've dug down into the jade should have filled up with water. Which in turn begs the question, where did all the new water (aka rain) drain to after the Jade Sea was, ya know, jaded?

 

I presume that they pump the water out of their quarries the same way we do. Assuming that the quarry is a pit.

 

Once you stop pumping water out of quarries it's not unusual for them to turn into very deep and often dangerous lakes.

 

I'm not sure if the GW2 engine can represent that, it used to be the case that a map could only have a single water level so you couldn't have a pool on a cliff and the sea below, for example, but maybe they've improved that.

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/e ponder

 

How deep were the deepest depths of the Jade Sea before it got jaded? How far down did the effects of the Jade Wind reach? Is it possible there are areas deep below the surface that were not jaded? If so, what's going on down there? And where did I hear/read something about people seeing things moving down there...

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How the Jade was created doesn't matter. From what we've seen so far its similar to Bloodstone, and absorbs magic, which means when the world was flooded with Unbound & Volatile magic, it'd be stored there instead of going wild in Cantha. Ever stuck a sponge into a bowl of water to see what happens to it?

 

Also, its established in LWS3 that all magic is dragon magic, because dragon magic itself is filtered ley energy. You can think of ley energy, which is the origin of magic in Tyria, as all magic types being combined like the spectrum of light (with ley energy being white light), and this gets filtered down into dragon magic, which is further filtered down into the types of magic everyone uses when its not being absorbed by them.

 

Eventually all magic is absorbed, processed & released again by the Elder Dragons. As we've seen with Balthazar, it can even be converted into god magic, and remains as god magic even when being absorbed by another creature afterwards as we saw with Aurene, Kralkatorrik and Jormag, but still belongs to the Tyrian cycle.

 

Its a closed system and magic can never be created nor destroyed, only change shape. That's literally the plot of the entire game up until now, how did you miss it?

Edited by Hannelore.8153
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In Core Tyrian use, there is a distinction between dragon magic and 'regular' magic, although magic can shift from one type to another. Dragon magic has a corruptive aspect - if you're exposed to too much of it, you become a minion of that dragon. Magic which is no longer linked to a dragon, however, can be used safely unless it's at a really high concentration, and at that point it causes general violent insanity rather than enslavement to a dragon. It also seems that the 'domains' of magic are an independent part of Tyria's magic system, but it's unhealthy for an Elder Dragon to absorb large amounts of magic from more than one domain, so over time they process magic from one domain into their own domain.

 

Canthans might have a different definition since they haven't spent a century fighting Elder Dragons, their corruption, and their minions, though. They might very well call magic released from the death of an Elder Dragon 'dragon magic' even if it lacks the corruptive properties.

 

Incidentally, I'm also not sure that Tyrian magic is a completely closed system. The implication that there's enough magic in the system to destroy Tyria if enough of it (not even all of it) was released at once, combined with the certainty that there was some point at which the Elder Dragons weren't there to absorb it, implies that there was a time when pretty much all of the magic was free, and while apparently chaotic (the kodan creation myth possibly dates back to this period), the world survived. We know that there is some outflow of magic into the Mists, since souls contain magic and souls go to the Mists when they die (if they don't hang around as ghosts). I suspect there is also an inflow of magic from the Mists, and over time that exceeds the outflow.

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14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In Core Tyrian use, there is a distinction between dragon magic and 'regular' magic, although magic can shift from one type to another. Dragon magic has a corruptive aspect - if you're exposed to too much of it, you become a minion of that dragon. Magic which is no longer linked to a dragon, however, can be used safely unless it's at a really high concentration, and at that point it causes general violent insanity rather than enslavement to a dragon. It also seems that the 'domains' of magic are an independent part of Tyria's magic system, but it's unhealthy for an Elder Dragon to absorb large amounts of magic from more than one domain, so over time they process magic from one domain into their own domain.

 

Canthans might have a different definition since they haven't spent a century fighting Elder Dragons, their corruption, and their minions, though. They might very well call magic released from the death of an Elder Dragon 'dragon magic' even if it lacks the corruptive properties.

 

Incidentally, I'm also not sure that Tyrian magic is a completely closed system. The implication that there's enough magic in the system to destroy Tyria if enough of it (not even all of it) was released at once, combined with the certainty that there was some point at which the Elder Dragons weren't there to absorb it, implies that there was a time when pretty much all of the magic was free, and while apparently chaotic (the kodan creation myth possibly dates back to this period), the world survived. We know that there is some outflow of magic into the Mists, since souls contain magic and souls go to the Mists when they die (if they don't hang around as ghosts). I suspect there is also an inflow of magic from the Mists, and over time that exceeds the outflow.

The "violent insanity" from overexposure was specifically from high exposure to the magic of the destroyed bloodstone.

There hasn't really been any indication that "regular " magic has any negative effects on mortals in high amounts other than potentially having a physical limit on how much magic their body can endure without being vaporized 

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4 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

The "violent insanity" from overexposure was specifically from high exposure to the magic of the destroyed bloodstone.

There hasn't really been any indication that "regular " magic has any negative effects on mortals in high amounts other than potentially having a physical limit on how much magic their body can endure without being vaporized 

Not true.

All of the PoF and LWS4 bounties were people/creatures that went crazy due to overexposure of magic in general. Not just magic released from the Bloodstone, but magic in general. Which resulted from the deaths of two Elder Dragons, which caused the balance of magic to become upset.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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I'm sure we will be told in game because if they just tell us in previews there won't be a lot to discover. Most likely the jade doesn't revert back to water if its empowered with dragon energy. Call it emerging information and technology. How exactly this energy is extracted is used remains to be seen as well as if all its energy from that chunk is used does it still revert back. I think we will be present during this apex of high technology for the canthan empire as well as the consequences for doing so.

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22 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Incidentally, I'm also not sure that Tyrian magic is a completely closed system. The implication that there's enough magic in the system to destroy Tyria if enough of it (not even all of it) was released at once, combined with the certainty that there was some point at which the Elder Dragons weren't there to absorb it, implies that there was a time when pretty much all of the magic was free, and while apparently chaotic (the kodan creation myth possibly dates back to this period), the world survived. We know that there is some outflow of magic into the Mists, since souls contain magic and souls go to the Mists when they die (if they don't hang around as ghosts). I suspect there is also an inflow of magic from the Mists, and over time that exceeds the outflow.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

First off, souls have to come from somewhere. So unless they're being made out of the magic of the world, then that suggests the magic/energy of souls is entering the world, staying for a bit, then leaving (some sooner than others). This would mean that while not a closed system, it'd be a zero gain system.

And we can't really be sure there was a point in which equivalents to Elder Dragons didn't exist, even assuming the Kodan creation myth was accurate, that'd just mean there was more magic in the world than later times, so there could have been Elder Dragons who were less greedy in consuming magic.

As for an inflow, there is one obvious example of such - the addition of foreign races like humans, and the Six Gods. Their actions have definitely increased magical volumes. But outside the alien species and divine beings, there's no evidence to suggest an inflow of magic from the Mists - so while not a true closed system, it'd be a mostly closed system outside of the net-zero change of souls coming in and out.

What's weird is that despite this increase from the deaths of Abaddon and Balthazar (and fall of Dhuum and Abaddon before the Exodus), killing Kralkatorrik in the Mists - even with Aurene present to replace him - would have been devastating for Tyria, implying that the increase is insignificant to the loss of the amount of magic inside Kralkatorrik at that moment.

7 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

The "violent insanity" from overexposure was specifically from high exposure to the magic of the destroyed bloodstone.

There hasn't really been any indication that "regular " magic has any negative effects on mortals in high amounts other than potentially having a physical limit on how much magic their body can endure without being vaporized 

Path of Fire and Season 4 bounties are individuals who were over-exposed to ley-line magic and driven mad. As can be heard at every bounty board:

Order of Shadows Agent: Wicked, ley-enhanced creatures are roaming the desert. What are you going to do about it?

The skill effects used to signify "ley-enhanced creatures" are used on non-bounties too, like Zohaqin in Sandswept Isles, the five Icebrood Champions or Aesgir's Legacy in Bjora, and Cache Keepers of southern Drizzlewood, and Dominion Tribunes/Centurions in northern Drizzlewood. Indicating that they're also over-exposed to ley-line magic to a degree.

And in Season 3, the Commander was going insane from exposure to ley-line magic too, though the effects were healed by the Shadowstone / Krait Oil from the Priory / Consortium respectively (a plot that showcased rivalry to the two, and went nowhere).

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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On 11/20/2021 at 2:31 PM, LesserHellspawn.3160 said:

Shiro's deathcry petrified the Echovald Forest and solidified the Jade Sea. In End of Dragons the forest is back alive again, but the Jade Sea is still solid and powered by dragons ? Really ? Abbadon was behind Shiro, not a Dragon. And the  Jade Sea should have liquified again along with the revitalization of the forest. It'll be very interesting how Anet will make the actual setting fit with the lore.


If i remember right,  Abbadon was the "trigger",

Spoiler

but the actual solidifying effect was 100% Dwayna's Fault,  - and as the gods have only really "just" left, there would be no reason Dwayna's magic that solidified everything would dissipate instantly, Heck, Humans only have magic because of Abbadon, and he died over 250 years ago. 

Dragons weren't at all a factor until GW2, so I can only assume they are retconning their lore to try and tie in a reason "to have these elite specs",  and after PoF, I stopped seeing Elite Specs related to lore at all ( because renegade, really? ), so to me, EoD on paper looks like they're trying to make Dragons the centre of everything when they had no relation.

 

 

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A few remarks

Jade sea in GW2 has a major spoiler. I find it a bit unfair to judge this as a break of lore before the actual story is released.

The most important reason for the difference between Echovald and the jade sea would be what happened to it and what it originally was.
The forest was a forest untill it petrified. Allready during GW1 we saw some return of plantlife. It is likely that it returned to a forest over this amount of time. Just look at how Tjernobile changed in recent years and how it will look over 200 years if we leave it alone. The nature of the landscape is ideal for dust, sand, mudd and seeds to pile up in all kinds of corners being a base for the new forest.

The jade sea is different. After solidifying it is a plane. Any dust or seed doesnt have corners to pile up in and it just blows over it. As for water from rivers and rain, it is basically the same thing.  The jade sea was an inland sea, but as with all water, it will have a connection to the ocean. In the end all water drains into the ocean. With any water that entered the jade sea, the same would happen that it flows down to ocean.

(possibly throught the echovald forest as that is one of the barriers , and excelleration growth there).

tl;dr: Yes it makes sense to have the forest return to life and the sea staying in this shape. As for the envolvement of dragons in the lore, we just have to wait and see what they have in store for us.

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1 hour ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

There are a few things that has been altered in the story/Lore.

One of the most memorable is when you're doing the mission with trehern, and he's explaining all about Orr.

He mentions that Vizier Kilbron, AKA the lich, helped orrians against charr.

The Lich was killed in prophecies, and by then Orr had already been sank for hundreds of years.

As far as I know, the charr never invaded orr; and Caithe even said herself that Orr sank due to the folly of men.

There are contradictions there.

But hey... I play Guild Wars primarly because of the fun factor.

I'm an "Old Timer" Ish... coming late from GW1 to 2, but been playing gw for a long time.

You seem confused on the order of events here.

The Charr use the Searing at the beginning of the Prophecies campaign for GW1 to largely destroy Ascalon. The Charr then march down to Orr, and Vizier Kilbron reads the forbidden scrolls to try to stop them. This sinks Orr, and turns Kilbron into the Lich. We find out later that Kilbron was actually a servant of Abbadon, who told him to do it.

Orr was not sunk for hundreds of years when GW1 starts. It sinks shortly after the tutorial area in Ascalon, after the Charr use the Searing.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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