End of Dragon feels like a break of the lore

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Edit:

I just read wiki page.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Orr

 

Isn't it funny how from prophecies, all the way to EotN, not one  single line of those events is ever mentioned..

I read Ghosts of Ascalon.

There was never any mention of that event in the book neither.

Edited November 26, 2021 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

There are a few things that has been altered in the story/Lore.

One of the most memorable is when you're doing the mission with trehern, and he's explaining all about Orr.

He mentions that Vizier Kilbron, AKA the lich, helped orrians against charr.

The Lich was killed in prophecies, and by then Orr had already been sank for hundreds of years.

As far as I know, the charr never invaded orr; and Caithe even said herself that Orr sank due to the folly of men.

There are contradictions there.

But hey... I play Guild Wars primarly because of the fun factor.

I'm an "Old Timer" Ish... coming late from GW1 to 2, but been playing gw for a long time.

There is no contradiction there. That's all backstory for Prophecies. The charr invaded Orr in 1071 AE - in the year between pre-Searing and post-Searing game setting. The Vizier is why orr was sunk, and he sunk it during the charr's invasion.

It's all very clearly right there in the Prophecies manual, too, and on the wiki, and even on the GW2W.

I'm finding it hard to believe you played both games without knowing the lore of the Cataclysm. I mean, the very scene in Victory or Death that you quoted, where Caithe said "Orr sank due to the folly of men" was depicting Khilbron causing the Cataclysm, which was again during the charr invasion. Which is exactly what Trahearne says - he doesn't say Khilbron "helped Orrians against charr" but:

Trahearne: As hope failed, an Orrian named Vizier Khilbron read the Lost Scrolls and unleashed an ancient curse.

Trahearne: The curse annihilated the charr army, but it destroyed Orr as well. A cataclysm plunged the nation into the ocean. Everything was lost.

3 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

You seem confused on the order of events here.

The Charr use the Searing at the beginning of the Prophecies campaign for GW1 to largely destroy Ascalon. The Charr then march down to Orr, and Vizier Kilbron reads the forbidden scrolls to try to stop them. This sinks Orr, and turns Kilbron into the Lich. We find out later that Kilbron was actually a servant of Abbadon, who told him to do it.

Orr was not sunk for hundreds of years when GW1 starts. It sinks shortly after the tutorial area in Ascalon, after the Charr use the Searing.

Minor clarification: we do not know when or how Khilbron was turned into a lich, and the quest Lost Souls indicates that either Khilbron was around as Vizier 55 years before the Cataclysm capable of creating psuedo-liches like Fendi Nin, or the previous Vizier was just as evil and corrupt of a necromancer capable of a degree of lichdom like Khilbron.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[SoulGuardian.6203]

5 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

There is no contradiction there. That's all backstory for Prophecies. The charr invaded Orr in 1071 AE - in the year between pre-Searing and post-Searing game setting. The Vizier is why orr was sunk, and he sunk it during the charr's invasion.

It's all very clearly right there in the Prophecies manual, too, and on the wiki, and even on the GW2W.

I'm finding it hard to believe you played both games without knowing the lore of the Cataclysm. I mean, the very scene in Victory or Death that you quoted, where Caithe said "Orr sank due to the folly of men" was depicting Khilbron causing the Cataclysm, which was again during the charr invasion. Which is exactly what Trahearne says - he doesn't say Khilbron "helped Orrians against charr" but:

Trahearne: As hope failed, an Orrian named Vizier Khilbron read the Lost Scrolls and unleashed an ancient curse.

Trahearne: The curse annihilated the charr army, but it destroyed Orr as well. A cataclysm plunged the nation into the ocean. Everything was lost.

Read my last post.

Just before yours.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Read my last post.

Just before yours.

Sorry, new page threw off my quoting and was getting to the posts in order.

But it actually is mentioned several times in the game.

In addition to the quest I linked above up (linking again), it's also mentioned by Mantle Knight Karriya, though with a typo about the date (fun fact: in Ruins of Surmia mission, NPCs mention being trapped there by charr for 10 years, implying the original script had a 10 year gap between the Searing and main game, rather than 2 years), and by Blade Operative Paulina. Scorch Emberspire also talks about the events, from the other side of the story at that.

I believe there are other mentions as well, all surrounding Khilbron and the Scepter of Orr. There's a whole quest chain in Domain of Pain, too.

 

EDIT: Ghosts of Ascalon doesn't deal with Orr or the charr invasion, so no surprise it's not mentioned. It's all about, well, Ascalon and the Foefire which takes place 10 years after GW1.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[SoulGuardian.6203]

6 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Sorry, new page threw off my quoting and was getting to the posts in order.

But it actually is mentioned several times in the game.

In addition to the quest I linked above up (linking again), it's also mentioned by Mantle Knight Karriya, though with a typo about the date (fun fact: in Ruins of Surmia mission, NPCs mention being trapped there by charr for 10 years, implying the original script had a 10 year gap between the Searing and main game, rather than 2 years), and by Blade Operative Paulina. Scorch Emberspire also talks about the events, from the other side of the story at that.

I believe there are other mentions as well, all surrounding Khilbron and the Scepter of Orr. There's a whole quest chain in Domain of Pain, too.

 

EDIT: Ghosts of Ascalon doesn't deal with Orr or the charr invasion, so no surprise it's not mentioned. It's all about, well, Ascalon and the Foefire which takes place 10 years after GW1.

Interesting. 

How did I miss those?

Especially Operative Paulina?

I must have skipped the text.

 

After all these years and so many times playing through the entire gw1 story.

I'm still finding out things.

 

Would you believe that only recently I found out that Yaks bend has an arena!?

Yeah. Go figure.

 

 

[HotDelirium.7984]

Regardless of whatever is revealed in EOD, the human gods were right once again about their influence ruining the word in the case of Shiro absorbing magic from the Emperor that was magic from Dwayna. Wind/air is Dwayna's domain so it makes sense he created the Jade Wind however since it made a massive amount of "god magic created jade" this further created more tangible points where even further volatility could happen in the future. I think in EOD we will see the remaining consequences of the Jade Wind and the ongoing reasons why the human gods chose to leave.

[Tachenon.5270]

Hmm. Kinda seems like almost every problem that's plagued Tyria since, say, 205 BE (305 CC, -5 DR) has been the result of the Six Gods tracking humanity all over the place. Invasive species, humans -- worse than kudzu! Infesting Tyria region by region, rooting out the native flora and fauna. Unstoppable! The most godawful (hee) ecological disaster Tyria has ever known. Maybe the real reason the gods left is that they finally grew a conscience and went off to search for some other place humans could trash, I mean, call home. Or maybe they really are the kittenously kittenified kittens they appear to be and just bailed without bothering to clean up the mess they made. "Did we do tha-a-at?" ~ the Six Gods

[draxynnic.3719]

On 11/25/2021 at 8:21 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

First off, souls have to come from somewhere. So unless they're being made out of the magic of the world, then that suggests the magic/energy of souls is entering the world, staying for a bit, then leaving (some sooner than others). This would mean that while not a closed system, it'd be a zero gain system.

I was pretty much just using souls as the first example that came to mind of magic entering or leaving Tyria. Every revenant skill draws power from the Mists (ritualists are a bit less clear, but at least SOME of theirs do too). Anyone entering the Mists or arriving from the Mists is taking power from them. Tyria is even supposed to have been formed out of the Mists. So it's pretty clear that Tyria is not a closed system when it comes to magic - just whether there's been a net change over time.

 

That's something where there isn't something we can point to directly, but I think there are indications that there is most likely a net inflow, however small.

On 11/25/2021 at 8:21 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And we can't really be sure there was a point in which equivalents to Elder Dragons didn't exist, even assuming the Kodan creation myth was accurate, that'd just mean there was more magic in the world than later times, so there could have been Elder Dragons who were less greedy in consuming magic.

As for an inflow, there is one obvious example of such - the addition of foreign races like humans, and the Six Gods. Their actions have definitely increased magical volumes. But outside the alien species and divine beings, there's no evidence to suggest an inflow of magic from the Mists - so while not a true closed system, it'd be a mostly closed system outside of the net-zero change of souls coming in and out.

Okay, 'certainty' was probably a bit strong. That said, for there to have ALWAYS been ED-equivalents require them to have either been created alongside Tyria, or for them to predate Tyria.

 

Tyria's wildlife, however, seems to show evidence of evolution in a magic-heavy environment. Several creatures consume magic, including, if I recall correctly, dragon relatives such as wyverns. A reasonable proposition seems to be that the Elder Dragons were simply the most successful of that group. Perhaps there were one or more replacements leading back to their primordial predecessors, but since the Elder Dragons weren't in the habit of cooperating, to do so would imply either a voluntary hand-off from their predecessors or for the soon-to-be Elder Dragons to already be more powerful than those they were about to replace on a one-to-one basis. (Perhaps, though, those they replaced spread the magic across more individuals, or there was some naturally occurring Bloodstone-equivalent which could do little to fend off a hungry thaumovore). I think it does make sense, though, since we know that magic can flow between Tyria and the Mists and that there is probably more magic in the Mists, there has probably been a net leakage of magic into Tyria over time. Possibly there would normally be a natural equilibrium, but the presence of voracious thaumavores has shifted that equilibrium to the side of sucking more magic into Tyria, such that it would be catastrophic to release it all at once.

 

Come to think on it, maybe this is what's so different about Aurene? Glint passed onto her something related to Ascension and therefore god magic, and Aurene still appears to be relatively weak by ED standards despite what she's absorbed - maybe she's shunting some of the excess into portions of the Mist that can safely absorb it?

On 11/25/2021 at 8:21 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

What's weird is that despite this increase from the deaths of Abaddon and Balthazar (and fall of Dhuum and Abaddon before the Exodus), killing Kralkatorrik in the Mists - even with Aurene present to replace him - would have been devastating for Tyria, implying that the increase is insignificant to the loss of the amount of magic inside Kralkatorrik at that moment.

I think at that point the problem was more about creating an imbalance. Aurene's ability to absorb magic from a dying Elder Dragon seems to be limited unless it's been conveniently packed together by a relatively sane grandfatherly personality - losing most of Kralkatorrik's domain into the Mists might have been problematic. Especially since there does seem to be an indication from the nature of Aurene's powers that Preservation magic might largely fall in Kralkatorrik's domain, we just didn't really see it due to Kralkatorrik's chaotic nature.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Okay, 'certainty' was probably a bit strong. That said, for there to have ALWAYS been ED-equivalents require them to have either been created alongside Tyria, or for them to predate Tyria.

 

Tyria's wildlife, however, seems to show evidence of evolution in a magic-heavy environment. Several creatures consume magic, including, if I recall correctly, dragon relatives such as wyverns. A reasonable proposition seems to be that the Elder Dragons were simply the most successful of that group. Perhaps there were one or more replacements leading back to their primordial predecessors, but since the Elder Dragons weren't in the habit of cooperating, to do so would imply either a voluntary hand-off from their predecessors or for the soon-to-be Elder Dragons to already be more powerful than those they were about to replace on a one-to-one basis. (Perhaps, though, those they replaced spread the magic across more individuals, or there was some naturally occurring Bloodstone-equivalent which could do little to fend off a hungry thaumovore). I think it does make sense, though, since we know that magic can flow between Tyria and the Mists and that there is probably more magic in the Mists, there has probably been a net leakage of magic into Tyria over time. Possibly there would normally be a natural equilibrium, but the presence of voracious thaumavores has shifted that equilibrium to the side of sucking more magic into Tyria, such that it would be catastrophic to release it all at once.

Assuming it wasn't another of Jormag's long list of lies, Jormag does state in "Shadow in the Ice", when you are fighting yourself, that

So there was a time before the Elder Dragons, or at least the Elder Dragon cycle we know.

The Whisper of Jormag: I understand why you want to silence me, but you must listen. For Tyria's sake.

The Whisper of Jormag: For thousands of years, I've watched this broken system consume entire civilizations.

The Whisper of Jormag: But it was not always this way. You, Aurene, and I—we can save this world. Preserve it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Okay, 'certainty' was probably a bit strong. That said, for there to have ALWAYS been ED-equivalents require them to have either been created alongside Tyria, or for them to predate Tyria.

I'd say this is honestly pretty likely. Not our current Elder Dragons, but the role they play being passed down. Most myths and fiction tend to have "the world was created by higher beings" in some form or another, even Thyrian human myths in GW1; and if the kodan belief is to be held true or true-ish, then that would put Koda as the creator of Thyria.

The idea of an original creator deity 50,000+ years ago forming Thyria from the Mists and then putting into place the job of balancing magic to solve a critical issue of choatic magic that destroyed previous attempts at world building would make sense.

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Tyria's wildlife, however, seems to show evidence of evolution in a magic-heavy environment. Several creatures consume magic, including, if I recall correctly, dragon relatives such as wyverns. A reasonable proposition seems to be that the Elder Dragons were simply the most successful of that group. Perhaps there were one or more replacements leading back to their primordial predecessors, but since the Elder Dragons weren't in the habit of cooperating, to do so would imply either a voluntary hand-off from their predecessors or for the soon-to-be Elder Dragons to already be more powerful than those they were about to replace on a one-to-one basis. (Perhaps, though, those they replaced spread the magic across more individuals, or there was some naturally occurring Bloodstone-equivalent which could do little to fend off a hungry thaumovore). I think it does make sense, though, since we know that magic can flow between Tyria and the Mists and that there is probably more magic in the Mists, there has probably been a net leakage of magic into Tyria over time. Possibly there would normally be a natural equilibrium, but the presence of voracious thaumavores has shifted that equilibrium to the side of sucking more magic into Tyria, such that it would be catastrophic to release it all at once.

To me the issue is the assumption that the issue is just the quantity of magic. Which ultimately has the same problems that simply killing off Jormag and Primordus without fanfare in IBS causes - moreso, even, if one accepts the theory that Aurene can somehow balance The All without assistance despite no dialogue directly implying this beyond hoop jumping gymnastics.

First being that it negates the entire plot of S3E5->S4E6. First in Taimi's and Sadizi's commentary about The All being balanced being a separate, and larger, issue than the overflow of magic. Second in that Balthazar taking a dragon or two's or even four amount of magic out of the system would not be dangerous to Thyria at all. Third in that killing Kralkatorrik in the Mists would have been perfectly fine despite Taimi and Aurene saying otherwise. Worst case scenario in that is that Tyrians lose a specific type of magic, if the issue of balancing magic and the All was merely keeping the quantity of magic to a certain level range.

The very nature of The All's balance being separate, even if related to, the quantity of magic fundamentally suggests that something always had to exist so long as Thyria had existed.

 

As an aside: I don't think the existence of a naturally occurring thaumavore really supports the notion that balancers of The All weren't always existent.

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Come to think on it, maybe this is what's so different about Aurene? Glint passed onto her something related to Ascension and therefore god magic, and Aurene still appears to be relatively weak by ED standards despite what she's absorbed - maybe she's shunting some of the excess into portions of the Mist that can safely absorb it?

I don't think that the ascension Glint referred to was related to either divine ascension or Augury Rock Ascension.

If there was any relation, the capitalization would imply the latter though, which doesn't seem at all related to god magic per se, as shown by Weh no Su being the same thing + dialogue around Augury Rock in GW2 (though the latter does seem more like excuse-making).

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Especially since there does seem to be an indication from the nature of Aurene's powers that Preservation magic might largely fall in Kralkatorrik's domain, we just didn't really see it due to Kralkatorrik's chaotic nature.

I wouldn't really associate Aurene fixing the damage Kralkatorrik had done as Preservation magic, personally. When we see her magic in person, it's still all crystal stuff, with rare additions of plants, and fixing the Mists could mean many things - including using the plant magic she got from Mordremoth.

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Assuming it wasn't another of Jormag's long list of lies, Jormag does state in "Shadow in the Ice", when you are fighting yourself, that

So there was a time before the Elder Dragons, or at least the Elder Dragon cycle we know.

The Whisper of Jormag: I understand why you want to silence me, but you must listen. For Tyria's sake.

The Whisper of Jormag: For thousands of years, I've watched this broken system consume entire civilizations.

The Whisper of Jormag: But it was not always this way. You, Aurene, and I—we can save this world. Preserve it.

All that dialogue says is that the system wasn't always broken. Which merely implies that, at one point in the distant past, the Elder Dragons or equivalent (either our current six or their predecessors) weren't suffering from Torment and/or so hostile and gluttonous in their consumption of magic.

It could mean the system didn't exist, but it only confirms that the system wasn't always broken.