Another day another 30k dps necro in fractals

[Mell.4873]

No mater the fight I cant get much more than 20k dps on my Mesmer and all the Scourges are getting 30k. I know about Epidemic but some fights have zero adds and they can still get 30k. 
I guess this is why I get kicked in CM's for not playing scourge. Doesn't having one class being the only dps go against ArenaNet's design philosophy?

[SeTect.5918]

31 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

No mater the fight I cant get much more than 20k dps on my Mesmer and all the Scourges are getting 30k. I know about Epidemic but some fights have zero adds and they can still get 30k. 
I guess this is why I get kicked in CM's for not playing scourge. Doesn't having one class being the only dps go against ArenaNet's design philosophy?

Which fractals exactly did u play?
If you say 30k I think you mean thaumanova bc its also a daily today?
I think other than thauma there is only chaos, urban, sirens reef and uuuuh idk where you could reach 30k.
Most bosses as phase bosses and at these you mostly cant reach 30k dps.

Edited November 20, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Mell.4873]

16 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Which fractals exactly did u play?
If you say 30k I think you mean thaumanova bc its also a daily today?
I think other than thauma there is only chaos, urban, sirens reef and uuuuh idk where you could reach 30k.
Most bosses as phase bosses and at these you mostly cant reach 30k dps.

T4 fractals and since I was the only non-scourge dps the fight is very fast. Snowblind was probably the obvious where at every point on the end fight they where getting 30k, I guess part of that is epidemic but the boss is not there for part of it.

[Infusion.7149]

There's zero context for this post, are you playing axe mirage? I sometimes team with a guildmate that plays axe mirage and pulls reasonable numbers relative to meta classes. There's nothing stopping you from playing power chrono (even with condi food running) on trash mobs portions and just swapping to condi axe at bosses. Yesterday was Vengeance/NPNG if I remember correctly so scourges get free damage from boon rips.

The analogous build to condi scourge is not condi staff mirage or power chrono.

Power chrono is stronger than power reaper against bosses ; staff mirage puts out far more party/squad might than necros do on scourge.

The only case you'd see condi scourge pull far more without epi is against exposed breakbars since the damage distribution on cScourge is 90% condi meaning exposed is extremely skewed. Incidentally the cMirage on axe also has that damage distribution.

If you look at wingman stats the data doesn't support what you are saying:
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/siax
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/enso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/arts

Arkk doesn't have enough sample size this patch but last month cMirage had similar numbers to cScourge. On Ai it is important to check the logs, many mirages are on staff.
 

Have you considered you just aren't performing as well on mirage as you think you are?

Edited November 20, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[SeTect.5918]

3 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

T4 fractals and since I was the only non-scourge dps the fight is very fast. Snowblind was probably the obvious where at every point on the end fight they where getting 30k, I guess part of that is epidemic but the boss is not there for part of it.

well there are lots of ads so it can be that the aoe dmg of scourge really helped.

However on single target bosses it would be better to see.

Mesmer is also not a class that shines on multi targets because the clones/illusions just attack 1 enemy and get destroyed if the enemy dies. So that is maybe a big part of that issue.

[Mell.4873]

22 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There's zero context for this post, are you playing axe mirage? I sometimes team with a guildmate that plays axe mirage and pulls reasonable numbers relative to meta classes. There's nothing stopping you from playing power chrono (even with condi food running) on trash mobs portions and just swapping to condi axe at bosses. Yesterday was Vengeance/NPNG if I remember correctly so scourges get free damage from boon rips.

The analogous build to condi scourge is not condi staff mirage or power chrono.

Power chrono is stronger than power reaper against bosses ; staff mirage puts out far more party/squad might than necros do on scourge.

The only case you'd see condi scourge pull far more without epi is against exposed breakbars since the damage distribution on cScourge is 90% condi meaning exposed is extremely skewed. Incidentally the cMirage on axe also has that damage distribution.

If you look at wingman stats the data doesn't support what you are saying:
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/siax
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/enso
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/arts

Arkk doesn't have enough sample size this patch but last month cMirage had similar numbers to cScourge. On Ai it is important to check the logs, many mirages are on staff.
 

Have you considered you just aren't performing as well on mirage as you think you are?

I don't really care about doing more dps on trash, just boss fights. 

The video has nothing to do with fractals since most fights don't last long enough to get most of this damage off. Confusion is a not a thing in fractals, it's all about torment. 

The damage numbers in fractals prove my point aswell, since mirage is always behind scourge on the data so you proved me right? I mean just look at how many post scourge numbers compared to the 2 mirages that post. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

5 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

well there are lots of ads so it can be that the aoe dmg of scourge really helped.

However on single target bosses it would be better to see.

Mesmer is also not a class that shines on multi targets because the clones/illusions just attack 1 enemy and get destroyed if the enemy dies. So that is maybe a big part of that issue.

I play a shatter focused mirage for that exact reason, I get more damage at the start of fights and aoe compared to the snowcrow version since I use all the shatters off cool down. The snowcrow build can roughly do 3k more than me on long fights but I normally get more over all damage since I think the clone aoe damage gets messed up in arc. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

The video has nothing to do with fractals since most fights don't last long enough to get most of this damage off. Confusion is a not a thing in fractals, it's all about torment. 

The damage numbers in fractals prove my point aswell, since mirage is always behind scourge on the data so you proved me right? I mean just look at how many post scourge numbers compared to the 2 mirages that post. 

The golem doesn't even trigger confusion, what are you on about?

You do realize 50%+ of axe mirage is torment right?

+/- 1  to 2K DPS , not the discrepancy you are speaking of.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The golem doesn't even trigger confusion, what are you on about?

You do realize 50%+ of axe mirage is torment right?

Yeah that's why don't focus on confusion, most of the dps I get is from torment just like scourge but I can't get as many stacks. You are right it is rough 50% of my damage.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

No mater the fight I cant get much more than 20k dps on my Mesmer and all the Scourges are getting 30k. I know about Epidemic but some fights have zero adds and they can still get 30k. 
I guess this is why I get kicked in CM's for not playing scourge. Doesn't having one class being the only dps go against ArenaNet's design philosophy?

More like you are getting kicked because you are playing with people that tell you how to play. 

... and to be fair, it seems some of the reasoning for how your mesmer build works isn't exactly inline with why you are doing it. So maybe this is less about not playing a scourge and more about what you are doing and people knowing how it's going to (not) work for them in a team ... because I have a suspicion that if someone put a scourge in your hands, you wouldn't be breezing into 30K DPS either. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Noodle Ant.1605]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I play a shatter focused mirage for that exact reason, I get more damage at the start of fights and aoe compared to the snowcrow version since I use all the shatters off cool down.

wait this seems counter-logical, doesnt condi mirage only shatter f2 (for confusion) now? what benefit are you trying to achieve by shattering without intending to abuse confusion? and if trash isnt important then whats the aoe for?

if you truly want faster damage, then youd want to spam axe ambush as much and as fast as possible because its 16 torment each with 3 clones, youre already looking at 64 stacks of torment (not including 0-36 bleeding from clones) if you manage to get 4 ambushes off quickly

(and before people rage at me for no reason, yes you do need to know whether or not you can expend those dodges)

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

More like you are getting kicked because you are playing with people that tell you how to play. 

... and to be fair, it seems some of the reasoning for how your mesmer build works isn't exactly inline with why you are doing it. So maybe this is less about not playing a scourge and more about what you are doing and people knowing how it's going to (not) work for them in a team ... because I have a suspicion that if someone put a scourge in your hands, you wouldn't be breezing into 30K DPS either. 

I don't really know i don't have the gear for scourge outside what i have tested in pvp. I just see the dps and came here to voice my concern, it seems way to strong at the moment and basically 80% of fractals dps is scourge.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

wait this seems counter-logical, doesnt condi mirage only shatter f2 (for confusion) now? what benefit are you trying to achieve by shattering without intending to abuse confusion? and if trash isnt important then whats the aoe for?

if you truly want faster damage, then youd want to spam axe ambush as much and as fast as possible because its 16 torment each with 3 clones, youre already looking at 64 stacks of torment (not including 0-36 bleeding from clones) if you manage to get 4 ambushes off quickly

(and before people rage at me for no reason, yes you do need to know whether or not you can expend those dodges)

I run with this Maim the Disillusioned which applies torment on shatters. outside of the burst and aoe (mostly for bosses with ads, not trash), I do this so I can use all the shatters without lowering my dps, especially distortion during CM runs.

I have played with other mirages with the snowcrow build and so this is mostly my observation. If anything my build does better with scourges in the group since it is so focused on burst rather than long condition stacks.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't really know i don't have the gear for scourge outside what i have tested in pvp. I just see the dps and came here to voice my concern, it seems way to strong at the moment and basically 80% of fractals dps is scourge.

Except in 9 years, classes that have high DPS haven't been a problem ... and neither has low DPS classes either. 

See, the problem here is that the DPS something can do is extremely dependent on the person playing it. So  Scourge doing high DPS in high level fractals ... That's someone that REALLY knows what they are doing. It's not that the class the is OP that just any scrub gets High DPS using it. 

In otherwords ... this isn't something Anet needs to fix or could even fix if they wanted to because ... people that can't play at that level will NEVER do high DPS in hard content. If you decide to play 'that' way (PUG's), then you better be willing to accept people telling you how to play and ALSO being able to play like that. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Mell.4873]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except in 9 years, classes that have high DPS haven't been a problem ... and neither has low DPS classes either. 

I mean Infusion posted the links to the gw2wingman to prove me wrong but it shows that the only classes played in fractals are Necro, Guardian(healer) and Renegade(alac)

For example https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/enso

 

This is definitely wrong, something does need to change.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I mean Infusion posted the links to the gw2wingman to prove me wrong but it shows that the only classes played in fractals are Necro, Guardian(healer) and Renegade(alac)

For example https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/enso

 

This is definitely wrong, something does need to change.

There isn't anything wrong there. People play how they want, including the people who use Wingman. If those are the only classes that most people on Wingman want to play, that's not a problem. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Noodle Ant.1605]

12 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I run with this Maim the Disillusioned which applies torment on shatters. outside of the burst and aoe (mostly for bosses with ads, not trash), I do this so I can use all the shatters without lowering my dps, especially distortion during CM runs.

I have played with other mirages with the snowcrow build and so this is mostly my observation. If anything my build does better with scourges in the group since it is so focused on burst rather than long condition stacks.

i thought illusions was replaced by chaos since a while ago, it doesnt really match what either chaos or dueling has to offer atm. MtD honestly just isnt enough compared to duelings bleed on illusion crit or chaos overall condi dmg output increase

besides, if you want to match scg, you need to build for more overall dps, not burst. building for burst would mean that the boss is dying too quickly, and cfb is far more oppressive than scg in that regard

[Mell.4873]

15 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

i thought illusions was replaced by chaos since a while ago, it doesnt really match what either chaos or dueling has to offer atm. MtD honestly just isnt enough compared to duelings bleed on illusion crit or chaos overall condi dmg output increase

besides, if you want to match scg, you need to build for more overall dps, not burst. building for burst would mean that the boss is dying too quickly, and cfb is far more oppressive than scg in that regard

I run Dueling and Illusions, most fights don't last long enough to benefit from not being burst.
unless people run regeneration Choas doesn't add much over Illusions, The Pledge (Reduces recharge on torch skills. Flame bursts from torch skills inflict additional burning). Again its all raid build stuff, I play stuff that suits fractals.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Noodle Ant.1605]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

I run Dueling and Illusions, most fights don't last long enough to benefit from not being burst.
unless people run regeneration Choas doesn't add much over Illusions, The Pledge (Reduces recharge on torch skills. Flame bursts from torch skills inflict additional burning). Again its all raid build stuff, I play stuff that suits fractals.

but if chaos mirage isnt going to shatter, it can technically take renewing oasis over self deception. and if i have analyzed this correctly, you actually dont want to shatter for burst because it puts unnecessary delays between your ambushes for comparatively little gain (the clones can just aa + proc sharper images instead), so chaos would be still be better than illusions in this scenario

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I mean Infusion posted the links to the gw2wingman to prove me wrong but it shows that the only classes played in fractals are Necro, Guardian(healer) and Renegade(alac)

For example https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/fractal/enso

 

This is definitely wrong, something does need to change.

I find it laughable that is your takeaway. The proper takeaway is necro is one of the most popular classes by far and far more forgiving with respect to instabilities. If you recall when chrono was meta for fractals you had to wait a long time to get one.

Firebrand being strong isn't an issue, if it overperforms greatly it is an issue. Similar with renegade , scourge, BS, or any meta class.

If you look at axe mirages since August,
22K https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20210908-214229_ensol_kill
19.5K https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20211016-201754_ensol_kill

Your claim was that necro does 10k DPS more than a DPS mirage. If you filter mirage results and look only at axe mirages that isn't the case and average scourge is 22K for October era and  20K for September and August. In addition, you decided to run a "creative build" rather than the meta one. Both staff and axe run chaos now after the traitline changed.

Likewise you're shattering on mirage.
You should really look at Tipcat's mesmer sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uXN-8fBdasAYcFKjgyBGuV8XUvqHk81YywbtJP78tsU

If your rationale is  " Again its all raid build stuff, I play stuff that suits fractals." then you can test in mistlock observatory with potions against the golem there. In fact fractal potions give you added endurance regen, therefore I highly doubt shattering for a few stacks of torment would ever exceed ambushes as well as all clones autoattacking applying conditions as well.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

but if chaos mirage isnt going to shatter, it can technically take renewing oasis over self deception. and if i have analyzed this correctly, you actually dont want to shatter for burst because it puts unnecessary delays between your ambushes for comparatively little gain (the clones can just aa + proc sharper images instead), so chaos would be still be better than illusions in this scenario

I only shatter when i know my clones or I will die, otherwise I just use f2. Illusions also buffs shatters with grandmaster.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I find it laughable that is your takeaway. The proper takeaway is necro is one of the most popular classes by far and far more forgiving with respect to instabilities. If you recall when chrono was meta for fractals you had to wait a long time to get one.

Firebrand being strong isn't an issue, if it overperforms greatly it is an issue. Similar with renegade , scourge, BS, or any meta class.

If you look at axe mirages since August,
22K https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20210908-214229_ensol_kill
19.5K https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20211016-201754_ensol_kill

Your claim was that necro does 10k DPS more than a DPS mirage. If you filter mirage results and look only at axe mirages that isn't the case and average scourge is 22K for October era and  20K for September and August. In addition, you decided to run a "creative build" rather than the meta one. Both staff and axe run chaos now after the traitline changed.

Likewise you're shattering on mirage.
You should really look at Tipcat's mesmer sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uXN-8fBdasAYcFKjgyBGuV8XUvqHk81YywbtJP78tsU

If your rationale is  " Again its all raid build stuff, I play stuff that suits fractals." then you can test in mistlock observatory with potions against the golem there. In fact fractal potions give you added endurance regen, therefore I highly doubt shattering for a few stacks of torment would ever exceed ambushes as well as all clones autoattacking applying conditions as well.

Its just my observation, i mean even the shared dps numbers are inline with what I can do.

I join fractals everyone is scourge and they do absurd dps, I guess the meta hasn't changed for so long this is the best all round dps.

 

Also i'm not trying to do the most dps with the most optimal class i'm just trying to do fractals and not die.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Dadnir.5038]

Wouldn't it be better to try to see what you do wrong before coming on the necromancer's subforum assuming the identity of a mesmer and complaining that you only do 2/3rd of a scourge dps in fractal?

I see that people point to you that you play an off-meta build, which in itself mean that you're already bound to be behind in term of performance/dps.

I mean, you're not even taping into the potential of your spec, isn't it natural that you end up with a "so-so" dps?

3 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I only shatter when i know my clones or I will die, otherwise I just use f2.

You shatter when you use F2. Point is that you dedicate ressources to shattering expecting gains yet forget that those ressources could be better used on things that you can use more often and thus generating higher gains. Your logic would be similar to a scourge ditching Soul reaping for Death magic and expecting death nova to carry it's dps to the meta build level.

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Wouldn't it be better to try to see what you do wrong before coming on the necromancer's subforum assuming the identity of a mesmer and complaining that you only do 2/3rd of a scourge dps in fractal?

I see that people point to you that you play an off-meta build, which in itself mean that you're already bound to be behind in term of performance/dps.

I mean, you're not even taping into the potential of your spec, isn't it natural that you end up with a "so-so" dps?

You shatter when you use F2. Point is that you dedicate ressources to shattering expecting gains yet forget that those ressources could be better used on things that you can use more often and thus generating higher gains. Your logic would be similar to a scourge ditching Soul reaping for Death magic and expecting death nova to carry it's dps to the meta build level.

I already pointed out i'm losing much dps since I'm can produce more aoe dps on clone shatters, I just swapped one on trait line its not the end of the world, at most lose 10% dps.
I play for flexibility if I know the boss will hurt me I shatter f4 and if I need cc I shatter f3. I even use Signet of Illusions so I can do second shatter f4. I run Superior Rune of Tormenting for healing, which scourges run in fractals and that is off meta a guess.

[Dadnir.5038]

19 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I already pointed out i'm losing much dps since I'm can produce more aoe dps on clone shatters, I just swapped one on trait line its not the end of the world, at most lose 10% dps.
I play for flexibility if I know the boss will hurt me I shatter f4 and if I need cc I shatter f3. I even use Signet of Illusions so I can do second shatter f4. I run Superior Rune of Tormenting for healing, which scourges run in fractals and that is off meta a guess.

Like I said, you are like a scourge using death magic instead of soul reaping thinking that the critter that death nova proc can bridge the loss of dps and complaining that it doesn't. It's both a Learn to Play and a Learn to Build issue.

And I'll be honest, personally, I'm doing more than 20k dps on my scepter condi chrono in fractal, which in itself already show that you got a lot to do to improve yourself on mirage before coming on the forum to complain since mirage is a lot more effective on condi damage than chrono will ever be (but, well, what can I do, I can't stand a build without 25% mov speed passive and only chrono offer that to me).