Another day another 30k dps necro in fractals

[Noodle Ant.1605]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

I only shatter when i know my clones or I will die, otherwise I just use f2. Illusions also buffs shatters with grandmaster.

in basic words, you have less dps potential than you think because you are using an inferior build

i posted a vid + build link about shatterless mirage in the mes forum that wasnt received very well (idk, cuz mes forum), i wont post it again but a lesson that shouldve been learnt was that shatters arent very important for condi dps anymore (unless abusing confusion). i really mean it when i say the old illusions playstyle isnt worthwhile anymore

because i dont know whether mes forum would be helpful atm, ill continue to give a few tips:

• firstly, you need to find an alternate build that doesnt focus so much on shattering because its not very strong atm
• aa is your bread and butter. this probably sounds dumb but you should probably master that before anything else
• if you know youre not going to abuse confusion, you can replace traits such as self deception/riddle of sand and ineptitude for other situational replacements (i personally like renewing oasis and deceptive evasion). you dont need to spam axe #2 and #3 unless initially building up clones or repositioning them (or evading?), and you can hold pistol #5 for cc. jaunt can be used defensively
• you dont want to f4 (or f3) unless you really need to
• sigil of torment is an ok dps-survival tradeoff, but if youre still dying with it then it means theres a dodging/positioning problem, or a problem with your heal support

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Noodle Ant.1605

[Mell.4873]

55 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

in basic words, you have less dps potential than you think because you are using an inferior build

i posted a vid + build link about shatterless mirage in the mes forum that wasnt received very well (idk, cuz mes forum), i wont post it again but a lesson that shouldve been learnt was that shatters arent very important for condi dps anymore (unless abusing confusion). i really mean it when i say the old illusions playstyle isnt worthwhile anymore

because i dont know whether mes forum would be helpful atm, ill continue to give a few tips:

• firstly, you need to find an alternate build that doesnt focus so much on shattering because its not very strong atm
• aa is your bread and butter. this probably sounds dumb but you should probably master that before anything else
• if you know youre not going to abuse confusion, you can replace traits such as self deception/riddle of sand and ineptitude for other situational replacements (i personally like renewing oasis and deceptive evasion). you dont need to spam axe #2 and #3 unless initially building up clones or repositioning them (or evading?), and you can hold pistol #5 for cc. jaunt can be used defensively
• you dont want to f4 (or f3) unless you really need to
• sigil of torment is an ok dps-survival tradeoff, but if youre still dying with it then it means theres a dodging/positioning problem, or a problem with your heal support

 

Everything you said is true, but I pug everything and people do do not heal very well. Necro and Mesmer are probably the only classes that can survive bad healing when played right, I'm more complaining about the blatant high dps even when i'm though im not running full raid dps build.

 

Honestly this post hasn't gone to bad, people are just trying to help me for the most part.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Like I said, you are like a scourge using death magic instead of soul reaping thinking that the critter that death nova proc can bridge the loss of dps and complaining that it doesn't. It's both a Learn to Play and a Learn to Build issue.

And I'll be honest, personally, I'm doing more than 20k dps on my scepter condi chrono in fractal, which in itself already show that you got a lot to do to improve yourself on mirage before coming on the forum to complain since mirage is a lot more effective on condi damage than chrono will ever be (but, well, what can I do, I can't stand a build without 25% mov speed passive and only chrono offer that to me).

Hmm i will probably still play shatter mirage since i can survive and provide more CC, its not like I am the primary dps with scourge being a thing.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Everything you said is true, but I pug everything and people do do not heal very well. Necro and Mesmer are probably the only classes that can survive bad healing when played right, I'm more complaining about the blatant high dps even when i'm though im not running full raid dps build.

 

Honestly this post hasn't gone to bad, people are just trying to help me for the most part.

I don't know what my personal DPS is in fractals (I don't use ARCDPS), but I do run a full raid DPS Scourge build there.  Honestly, condi Mirage can match those numbers, so you probably shouldn't be complaining about an optimized build hitting what you could easily match if you wanted.

[Mell.4873]

11 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

I don't know what my personal DPS is in fractals (I don't use ARCDPS), but I do run a full raid DPS Scourge build there.  Honestly, condi Mirage can match those numbers, so you probably shouldn't be complaining about an optimized build hitting what you could easily match if you wanted.

Well I guess I'm saying they are hands down better dps and I can't match there numbers even with the raid build which I opt not to play. 

[Zenith.7301]

You will never match a half decent necro or firebrand in fractal CM's, burning is busted on the breakbar change, and with epidemic necro effectively boosts damage massively while firebrand does a metric ton of burst with burning on breakbar.

 

Gonna be shortlived, though.

 

In EOD it will be 3 bladesworns instead because 500k damage skills on a breakbar bonus will totally busted. Specter will probably replace renegade.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Zenith.7301 said:

You will never match a half decent necro or firebrand in fractal CM's, burning is busted on the breakbar change, and with epidemic necro effectively boosts damage massively while firebrand does a metric ton of burst with burning on breakbar.

 

Gonna be shortlived, though.

 

In EOD it will be 3 bladesworns instead because 500k damage skills on a breakbar bonus will totally busted. Specter will probably replace renegade.

Yeah this does look like the case, hopefully Necro does get a look at after EoD. I would even be okay for mesmer to get a little nerf since shattering is a not thing for mirage as pointed out. 

[Zenith.7301]

16 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Yeah this does look like the case, hopefully Necro does get a look at after EoD. I would even be okay for mesmer to get a little nerf since shattering is a not thing for mirage as pointed out. 

 

 

Mesmer is trash in fractals outside 100CM, why would it need a nerf? Condi mirage in raids is good in condi bosses, which are maybe half to a third of the bosses, the other bosses still favor power specs, of which mesmer has a mediocre one after the nerfs to power chrono (though power reaper is even worse, the only worse power spec than reaper is power rev specs).

 

Shattering is not a thing for mesmer because the shatters are terrible. Cry of Frustration is almost DPS neutral and only relevant in confusion favored encounters, everyone else you can end up hurting your DPS by using it.

 

Don't blame mesmers for using the garbo mechanics given to the class the best they can. It's already dumb that Mirage isn't the undisputed best single target DPS class in the game considering it has the worst target switch, aoe cleave, and higher ramp up of the condi specs while having absolutely zero utility. Condi mirage is virtually the condi equivalent of rifle deadeye, except stuck in melee range limitations, so it should be balanced as such.

 

Mirage should be doing MUCH more DPS than scourge or firebrand considering all the flexibility, cleave, and utility scourge and firebrand bring.

[Nimon.7840]

Too many unknowns:

1. What exact build do you play.

2. Do you reach higher DPS numbers on the golem in the Aerodrome testing area?

[SeTect.5918]

25 minutes ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Too many unknowns:

1. What exact build do you play.

2. Do you reach higher DPS numbers on the golem in the Aerodrome testing area?

3. Did the Scourge have fractal god and potions and food?

4. Did you have fractal god and potions and food?

5. Which boss did you fight?

6. Which instabilities were active?

7. Were there ads?

and so on.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Nimon.7840 said:

1. What exact build do you play.

From what I gather, something like that:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABcqd/lVwUYIsEmJWGXPvHA-zRJYmRPfJ49A-e

 

He also say that he don't have the gear for condi scourge but condi mirage is supposed to wear the same gear than condi scourge so... Maybe he lack a scepter.

 

1 hour ago, SeTect.5918 said:

5. Which boss did you fight?

Pretty sure he used snowblind as an example.

 

Anyway, there is many hole in his story as well as many points that he can work on to improve himself. Even something as simple as getting himself a scepter would do him good.

[SeTect.5918]

15 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Pretty sure he used snowblind as an example.

Yea tho thats a boss with lots of ads and surely scourge will deal more dmg than mirage there bc of that, however i wouldve liked to get an example of a boss without ads to see the dps difference so we can say better. Thaumanova wouldve been a great boss to compare dps. No phases, no ads. Tho every boss without ads is nice to compare dps. And a 10k dps difference shouldnt be there if there are no ads.

[Nimon.7840]

6 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

From what I gather, something like that:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABcqd/lVwUYIsEmJWGXPvHA-zRJYmRPfJ49A-e

 

He also say that he don't have the gear for condi scourge but condi mirage is supposed to wear the same gear than condi scourge so... Maybe he lack a scepter.

 

Pretty sure he used snowblind as an example.

 

Anyway, there is many hole in his story as well as many points that he can work on to improve himself. Even something as simple as getting himself a scepter would do him good.

 

1. First thing to do would be to grab an appropriate build for fractals.

Good information here:

https://discretize.eu/builds/

Or maybe here: https://snowcrows.com/builds

(Note: these aren't always the best builds. These are builds for full DPS mostly not designed for survivability. So if you are new to fractals or your group isn't that good, you should definetly switch some things. For example play full trailblazer scourge instead of full viper, or switch to tormenting rune instead of nightmare. Or take blood magic instead of soul reaping)

 

2. Then you should practice your rotation on the golem. Can you do above 30k on the golem? - if no, then you will most likely not do above 30k on any boss.

 

3. Know your class. - what skills do the most damage? How do you adjust your rotation, if the boss does things like going invulnerable.

 

4. Know boss and fight mechanics.

For example, does the boss have a defiance bar, that lets you deal a lot more damage, after it's broken?

Condi classes like scourge want to put their condos on the boss before those phases happen, because they tend to ramp up damage wise (especially Necro, which has the slowest ramp of all classes). Or do you play a power class that wants to hold back their big spike damage for those phases (for example reaper wells + shroud)

 

 

All these things are a factor when it comes to dealing damage and getting high numbers.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

From what I gather, something like that:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABcqd/lVwUYIsEmJWGXPvHA-zRJYmRPfJ49A-e

 

He also say that he don't have the gear for condi scourge but condi mirage is supposed to wear the same gear than condi scourge so... Maybe he lack a scepter.

 

Pretty sure he used snowblind as an example.

 

Anyway, there is many hole in his story as well as many points that he can work on to improve himself. Even something as simple as getting himself a scepter would do him good.

Its more I don't want to swap it and  I'm trying to build legendary armor at the moment.

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Nimon.7840 said:

 

1. First thing to do would be to grab an appropriate build for fractals.

Good information here:

https://discretize.eu/builds/

Or maybe here: https://snowcrows.com/builds

(Note: these aren't always the best builds. These are builds for full DPS mostly not designed for survivability. So if you are new to fractals or your group isn't that good, you should definetly switch some things. For example play full trailblazer scourge instead of full viper, or switch to tormenting rune instead of nightmare. Or take blood magic instead of soul reaping)

 

2. Then you should practice your rotation on the golem. Can you do above 30k on the golem? - if no, then you will most likely not do above 30k on any boss.

 

3. Know your class. - what skills do the most damage? How do you adjust your rotation, if the boss does things like going invulnerable.

 

4. Know boss and fight mechanics.

For example, does the boss have a defiance bar, that lets you deal a lot more damage, after it's broken?

Condi classes like scourge want to put their condos on the boss before those phases happen, because they tend to ramp up damage wise (especially Necro, which has the slowest ramp of all classes). Or do you play a power class that wants to hold back their big spike damage for those phases (for example reaper wells + shroud)

 

 

All these things are a factor when it comes to dealing damage and getting high numbers.

I looked at the at website and it is very weird is doesn't mention mirage not even staff alacrity version. They also love soulbeast which is probably one of the worst fractal classes since it is so stationary during its rotation like daredevil.

[Mell.4873]

A final note to this thread since this is going no where is this whole thing is super subjective.

It is not only me but a few other people on this necro section of the forum that notice something wrong with scourge.

 

You can point out flaws in my build and say why i'm not getting 30k dps like scourge but all is every scourge doing massive damage and never dying much like the other posts on this topic.

If i notice it not being an easy mode dps in the future i might play it, we will see.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Cyninja.2954]

13 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

A final note to this thread since this is going no where is this whole thing is super subjective.

It is not only me but a few other people on this necro section of the forum that notice something wrong with scourge.

 

You can point out flaws in my build and say why i'm not getting 30k dps like scourge but all is every scourge doing massive damage and never dying much like the other posts on this topic.

If i notice it not being an easy mode dps in the future i might play it, we will see.

 

Scourge is busted. For many reasons, not damage alone.

 

That said, coming with mediocre gameplay and telling others "it's not me, it's the class" does nothing in setting up a proper argument.

 

Case in point: condi FB is just as busted as scourge, yet many pugs gravitate to cscourge for 100CM by now (and even full runs in lower UFE groups). Why? Epidemic. Absolutely damage unrelated but rather mechanic skip related (Sorrows at 100, minor adds at Artsariiv and especially Temporal Anomalies at Arkk, cleave of add trash in 98). The argument that players don't want other dps around for lack of damage as such does not carry weight, it's just that epidemic is a 1 button solution to multiple things random groups then don;t have to deal with. The fact that cscourge has comparative dps with other classes just puts it over the top.

 

In this case:

1. it is you. Mirage can pull more damage than what you claim to do

2. damage is not why players don't want you around, so even if you were able to do comparable damage to cscourge, you'd still not get taken because at similar damage, cscourge is still the better choice

3. the one thing which has remained true for fractals is the constant shift in meta (even if it might take a while with balance patches). If  you want to always have an assured spot: learn to multiclass

Edited November 23, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Mell.4873]

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Scourge is busted. For many reasons, not damage alone.

 

That said, coming with mediocre gameplay and telling others "it's not me, it's the class" does nothing in setting up a proper argument.

 

Case in point: condi FB is just as busted as scourge, yet many pugs gravitate to cscourge for 100CM by now (and even full runs in lower UFE groups). Why? Epidemic. Absolutely damage unrelated but rather mechanic skip related (Sorrows at 100, minor adds at Artsariiv and especially Temporal Anomalies at Arkk, cleave of add trash in 98). The argument that players don't want other dps around for lack of damage as such does not carry weight, it's just that epidemic is a 1 button solution to multiple things random groups then don;t have to deal with. The fact that cscourge has comparative dps with other classes just puts it over the top.

 

In this case:

1. it is you. Mirage can pull more damage than what you claim to do

2. damage is not why players don't want you around, so even if you were able to do comparable damage to cscourge, you'd still not get taken because at similar damage, cscourge is still the better choice

3. the one thing which has remained true for fractals is the constant shift in meta (even if it might take a while with balance patches). If  you want to always have an assured spot: learn to multiclass

yeah did mess up by mentioning that play Mesmer and told them my dps.

[Asum.4960]

30 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I looked at the at website and it is very weird is doesn't mention mirage not even staff alacrity version. They also love soulbeast which is probably one of the worst fractal classes since it is so stationary during its rotation like daredevil.

Not sure if I'd call one of the greatest power burst classes which has been instrumental to just about any Fractal speedrun record in the last 4 years terrible.

[Dadnir.5038]

24 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

yeah did mess up by mentioning that play Mesmer and told them my dps.

Nope, where you messed up is:

- Saying that you don't have the gear for trying cScourge when it's the exact same gear that your mirage is running.

- Saying that you use a condi shatter illusion build on mirage which is more potent when using ambushes.

- Not even trying to answer the question about whether you had or not fractal god/fractal potion/food on.

- Trying to compare a single target dps to a multitarget dps.

People tried to give you tips and you just rejected all of them claiming that your way was good enough. You're right with one thing, the thread is going no where and the reason is that you don't feed it with useful data that other players request from you.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You're right with one thing, the thread is going no where and the reason is that you don't feed it with useful data that other players request from you.

Well, there is an alternative ... OP wasn't interested in being 'helped' to being with. Seems to me the thread is just another complaint about balance. It's going to take a LONG time for some people to understand that it's not a problem that some classes are just better in certain situations. 

[Zenith.7301]

7 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Not sure if I'd call one of the greatest power burst classes which has been instrumental to just about any Fractal speedrun record in the last 4 years terrible.

 

And then it got gutted, to the point where running hybrid stats with an intended condi weapon yields better DPS than the actual power weapons on a power DPS spec.

 

All because it had "too strong burst"

 

And then they think releasing Bladesworn with 400-500k damage skills is totally fine. These people wouldn't know consistency if it hit them in the face.

 

Oh, and even with bladesworn out of the picture, Dragonhunter was untouched despite being as dominant in fractals prior to the breakbar change, and then they went and gave Firebrand even better burst than what dragonhunter or soulbeast ever did, on a spec and class with a metric ton of class exclusive group utility.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:26 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

There isn't anything wrong there. People play how they want, including the people who use Wingman. If those are the only classes that most people on Wingman want to play, that's not a problem. 

What you mean to say is that it doesn't necessarily indicate a problem as we don't know that people who use Wingman are representative of the population as a whole.  Of course, common sense is a thing and we don't need Wingman to tell us that scourge, renegade, and firebrand are grossly overrepresented in group play.  We also know why: because they are extremely overtuned.  Is that a problem?  In my opinion it absolutely is.  You're welcome to your own opinion on that, of course.

[Obtena.7952]

17 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

What you mean to say is that it doesn't necessarily indicate a problem as we don't know that people who use Wingman are representative of the population as a whole.  Of course, common sense is a thing and we don't need Wingman to tell us that scourge, renegade, and firebrand are grossly overrepresented in group play.  We also know why: because they are extremely overtuned.  Is that a problem?  In my opinion it absolutely is.  You're welcome to your own opinion on that, of course.

The comp is simply optimal in that situation. I mean, when in the history of this game have there not been optimal comps and that people used them to complain about class balance? It's been happening since the beginning. Yet, 9 years later, we still have it. Why? Because it's how that game works, whether people want to believe it's a problem or it isn't. Not just instanced content either. There are optimal solutions for all the PVE content you can think of, even OW farming trash mobs.

Optimal comps are not a problem that need a solution to fix them because we will always have optimal ways to address game content. If Anet nerfed Scourge ... something else would take it's place as optimal. It's a fools errand to think there is some state of balance that exists where there are lots of optimal choices. That state would be completely unstable. 

I'm not sure how overtuned is a problem ... what gets fixed if they are tuned down? There will still be optimal comps. Seems to me that this 'problem' is more about people being envious of have classes who play have-nots. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

21 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

And then it got gutted, to the point where running hybrid stats with an intended condi weapon yields better DPS than the actual power weapons on a power DPS spec.

 

All because it had "too strong burst"

 

And then they think releasing Bladesworn with 400-500k damage skills is totally fine. These people wouldn't know consistency if it hit them in the face.

 

Oh, and even with bladesworn out of the picture, Dragonhunter was untouched despite being as dominant in fractals prior to the breakbar change, and then they went and gave Firebrand even better burst than what dragonhunter or soulbeast ever did, on a spec and class with a metric ton of class exclusive group utility.

While I get your general point about bladesworn, in the end it wont work this way. In order to do that, you have to time your cc very carefully (cc being something that bladesworn really sucks in). They are horrible in trash encounters since everything but your fancy F2 does barely any damage. 

CM bosses melt so fast already that you dont need to cripple yourself to coordinate this one trick pony no player asked for.