Fractals creating their own class meta

[LKEY.9567]

These classes are meta at fractals due to two facts:

1. Fractals are easy

2. Scourge, Firebrand, Alacrigade are the easiest classes in game with little to none rotation.

Bonus. Top players use Rainbow Power Comp.

[Borked.6824]

Easy, just don't do organized group content.  If the power creep really is a problem for you, try the old "vote with your wallet" mentality.  About the only way to get something fixed these days is to just stop doing it to give our overlords a smack on the wrist.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

For what its worth, my post never said the devs don't play the game. It said that they don't often play it in high-level content and at the same level as their most dedicated players , if at all. Keep in mind that even if ten devs play the game at a very high level, we know that's less than 2-3% of the ArenaNet staff back in the HoT era.

 

Developers like DarkBringer seem to be exceptions, not the norm, with others often expressing confusion about their own game mechanics in forum posts, Reddit posts and even in their own livestreams. Especially since at this point half the company has been turned upside down several times, as is normal in the video game industry.

 

On top of this, my commentary was based upon actual dev commentary from early years of the game as well.  One of the major reasons for content like dungeons being abandoned was endless attempts to balance it (made even worse by it being spaghetti code) and finding it to simply be an impossible task because players were always fighting an arms war with the devs, which particularly affected instanced content due to its scripted nature.

 

There was entire guilds dedicated to cheesing the game as much as possible and this caused significant dev stress, especially on the class balance team, and something that wasn't easily dealt with because there was no skill split and they couldn't ruin PvP and WvW just to reduce the trend of trivialising PvE encounters in every way possible.

 

And this is still going on: What many players would call min/maxing, forming ideal parties and general "optimisation" is in fact finding the best way to trivalise all content, to make it easier than intended. Many mitigations came down to just disabling items, a practice which continues until this day, although now we at least have a skill split and can somewhat limit class or party composition based cheese as well.

 

Playing your own game is not the same thing as having the time & energy to full invest in it at the same level as some players do, who can literally have all the time in the world sometimes. I have 20k hours in this game and there's still players in the game that make me look like a newbie. I even know players who have every single achivement that was ever introduced into the game, having grinded them out from day one, sometimes for 8-12 hours a day for 9+ years.

 

There's no way for someone working on the game to match that, and to constantly keep ahead of everything going on. Don't underestimate the playerbase and how hard they'll work to completely destroy all efforts, too.

 

I mean, they even directly admitted in the Elite Spec livestreams that alot of the specs weren't based upon player feedback or anything, but just something they were excited for, wanted to do and to fit the Canthan theme, which is the complete opposite of knowledge & foresight. Not that this is a complaint, I loved the Spectre.

 

At least try to understand why true balance is impossible. Its just a neverending tug of war, and even an entire team couldn't match the dedication of the most devout players.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Emberheart.8426]

1 hour ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

For what its worth, my post never said the devs don't play the game. It said that they don't often play it in high-level content and at the same level as their most dedicated players , if at all. Keep in mind that even if ten devs play the game at a very high level, we know that's less than 2-3% of the ArenaNet staff back in the HoT era.

 

Developers like DarkBringer seem to be exceptions, not the norm, with others often expressing confusion about their own game mechanics in forum posts, Reddit posts and even in their own livestreams. Especially since at this point half the company has been turned upside down several times, as is normal in the video game industry.

 

On top of this, my commentary was based upon actual dev commentary from early years of the game as well.  One of the major reasons for content like dungeons being abandoned was endless attempts to balance it (made even worse by it being spaghetti code) and finding it to simply be an impossible task because players were always fighting an arms war with the devs, which particularly affected instanced content due to its scripted nature.

 

There was entire guilds dedicated to cheesing the game as much as possible and this caused significant dev stress, especially on the class balance team, and something that wasn't easily dealt with because there was no skill split and they couldn't ruin PvP and WvW just to reduce the trend of trivialising PvE encounters in every way possible.

 

And this is still going on: What many players would call min/maxing, forming ideal parties and general "optimisation" is in fact finding the best way to trivalise all content, to make it easier than intended. Many mitigations came down to just disabling items, a practice which continues until this day, although now we at least have a skill split and can somewhat limit class or party composition based cheese as well.

 

Playing your own game is not the same thing as having the time & energy to full invest in it at the same level as some players do, who can literally have all the time in the world sometimes. I have 20k hours in this game and there's still players in the game that make me look like a newbie. I even know players who have every single achivement that was ever introduced into the game, having grinded them out from day one, sometimes for 8-12 hours a day for 9+ years.

 

There's no way for someone working on the game to match that, and to constantly keep ahead of everything going on. Don't underestimate the playerbase and how hard they'll work to completely destroy all efforts, too.

 

I mean, they even directly admitted in the Elite Spec livestreams that alot of the specs weren't based upon player feedback or anything, but just something they were excited for, wanted to do and to fit the Canthan theme, which is the complete opposite of knowledge & foresight. Not that this is a complaint, I loved the Spectre.

 

At least try to understand why true balance is impossible. Its just a neverending tug of war, and even an entire team couldn't match the dedication of the most devout players.

Complete balance may be impossible, but before the May patch the professions that were played in fractals were way more diverse. Now it's just the unholy trinity of scourge, firebrand, and renegade. You don't need perfect balance, but you at least need to make the gap smaller, unlike now where it's a gaping chasm that separates these 3 specs from the rest. Having performance close enough for many options to exist is possible, and has been done before. It all hinges on balancing being "good enough".

[Mell.4873]

On 11/22/2021 at 12:43 PM, LuRkEr.9462 said:

Firebrand and Renegade have been meta for a long time for obvious reasons but scourge is fairly new to fractals. I know personally scourge is nice in my groups because they do good dps while being incredibly durable (and giving barrier to the group.)

Having scourge(s) in pugs almost guarantees smooth runs with how durable they make the group. Its almost hard to wipe using them. Just makes pugs a safe bet.

 

edit: there are faster comps for sure, but the FB, Ren, 3x Scourge comp is fast enough with little risk of wipes.

People want smooth runs to maximize their time so the meta tends to evolve around that. 

Yeah exactly my point which is why I think it is a problem

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Ganathar.4956 said:

Complete balance may be impossible, but before the May patch the professions that were played in fractals were way more diverse. Now it's just the unholy trinity of scourge, firebrand, and renegade. You don't need perfect balance, but you at least need to make the gap smaller, unlike now where it's a gaping chasm that separates these 3 specs from the rest. Having performance close enough for many options to exist is possible, and has been done before. It all hinges on balancing being "good enough".

yeah i only just return after playing it before the may patch and definitely noticed a big difference.

[Shaogin.2679]

On 11/21/2021 at 3:32 AM, Mell.4873 said:

Scourge(dps), FireBrand(healer), Renegade(Alac)

In no other game mode is this much strictness on specific roles. I have tried to call attention to the problem with each elite specialization but seems like the fractals themselves are coursing this problem.

Firebrand healer and alac Rev are taken because they provide more dps than the Druid/Chrono pair and provide all the necessary boons and support.

 

Scourge is taken because it is one of the easiest condition classes to play and is pretty durable. The changes to torment and the condition changes to breakbar phases gave Scourges a huge dps buff, making them safe and powerful. 

 

Fractals is not creating an issue though. From what I've seen from your other posts, you're just salty that Mesmer isn't the mandatory meta class right now. I play Engineer and have no issues whatsoever completing my T4 Fractals every day.

 

Also, just wait until the expansion hits and Harbinger replaces Scourge. Harbinger brings so much more dps than Scourge that no pathetic amount of barrier will justify bringing a condi Scourge over a Harbinger. And let's face it, Scourges have had it so easy that they are going to drop like flies trying to play a Harbinger. Not to mention, there will be many more dps specs that will be great options, and we'll have new options for quickness and Alan supports as well.

 

I really don't think there is anything to worry about right now.

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Firebrand healer and alac Rev are taken because they provide more dps than the Druid/Chrono pair and provide all the necessary boons and support.

 

Scourge is taken because it is one of the easiest condition classes to play and is pretty durable. The changes to torment and the condition changes to breakbar phases gave Scourges a huge dps buff, making them safe and powerful. 

 

Fractals is not creating an issue though. From what I've seen from your other posts, you're just salty that Mesmer isn't the mandatory meta class right now. I play Engineer and have no issues whatsoever completing my T4 Fractals every day.

 

Also, just wait until the expansion hits and Harbinger replaces Scourge. Harbinger brings so much more dps than Scourge that no pathetic amount of barrier will justify bringing a condi Scourge over a Harbinger. And let's face it, Scourges have had it so easy that they are going to drop like flies trying to play a Harbinger. Not to mention, there will be many more dps specs that will be great options, and we'll have new options for quickness and Alan supports as well.

 

I really don't think there is anything to worry about right now.

i don't know why you got a perception I'm salty, I'm mostly complaining about the numbers of scourges in fractals. i could easily play something else and see the same result.

I do agree that EoD will probably change the meta.

 

If i'm salty its people trying to tell me how to play Mesmer my main class of 2 years.

[Drascious.5714]

It's a simple and well accepted fact at this point that PoF elite specs (especially these 3) are entirely overstacked when it comes to party synergy. Only Chrono and Druid beforehand have had such a massive impact on the game but at least neither of those were able to perform their role while also bringing decent damage at the time. And neither was as easy to play as these 3.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

i don't know why you got a perception I'm salty, I'm mostly complaining about the numbers of scourges in fractals. i could easily play something else and see the same result.

Except you don't get that this isn't something to complain about. It's not a problem. People can play how they want. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Vidit.7108]

The AlacRen and Firebrand are where they are because they're the best 5-party supporters you can have in this content. It's a long story how we got there.

The Scourge being requested is a mostly new thing that happens with 100CM. This is because people have found an easy to learn way of trivializing it. Players also keep hearing Scourge is the best and gravitate toward it. Similar things have happened before with other DPS classes in fractals. It's not really "meta" though, dps that know what they're doing will clear 98 and 99 CM about as fast as they always do. Same with T4s.

Is it easier to do fractals generally with team of Scourges? Not really, a lot of them aren't very good. I'm sure there are high skill players reaching the top times or whatever with 3 scourges but most everyone isn't. I've run into a lot of overconfident inexperienced scourges that would be doing better if they went back to their power dragonhunter or whatever it was before they saw a video of 50k dps condi damage.

[Shaogin.2679]

3 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

i don't know why you got a perception I'm salty, I'm mostly complaining about the numbers of scourges in fractals. i could easily play something else and see the same result.

I do agree that EoD will probably change the meta.

 

If i'm salty its people trying to tell me how to play Mesmer my main class of 2 years.

Just my perception from your other thread. For quite some time, all Necromancers were garbage and Mesmer was one of the big dominating classes. No matter what, there will always be a meta with some classes on top. So long as it isn't some huge gap between what is meta and what is viable, then it really isn't an issue. And right now, it isn't an actual issue. It's not like people are unable to get their daily fractals done on whatever class they want at the moment.

[Puck.3697]

On 11/22/2021 at 7:20 AM, LKEY.9567 said:

2. Scourge, Firebrand, Alacrigade are the easiest classes in game with little to none rotation.

thats actually a very untrue statement to make realistically.

Theres a Reason no highly accepted Guides / Build Sites review majority of these at a 3/5 Difficulty rating minimum. and why "Easy" Versions of each of these builds exist. they arent the easiest classes in the game. the only one of the 3 u could consider to not have a rotation is Scourge. however Firebrand Alacrenegade Defintly do.

People like to cling to specific builds and decide the entire proffessions difficulty off the back of it,Yes Alacrenegades ability to apply 10 man Alac is very easy. howevers to Maximise its DPS etc etc around doing that, isnt easy Unless ur going shortbow Alacbot which is Intentionally Worse performing for the sake of being easier to approach.

People like to screech how hard weaver is based on its Condi builds.. while ignoring how easy Power Weaver is to play, are we forgetting it has a 25k DPS Auto attack build in Air?... or the fact Herald has a 30k DPS boon Specc which applies boons and Does 30k DPS With a Auto attack? lol.

They arent the easiest Speccs in the game Lmfao. any respectable site States completely against you in these fashions.

their the Most played Proffessions because they are the most efficent combination thats just end story realistically. their Utility options, Damage and More all work amazing in Fractals, if u look earlier Infusion showed u some really good math into exactly what makes em so powerful realistically. Exposed is Always going to make Burst Condi do amazing in such fights.

people like to just label "Easy mode" on everything.. even tho 99% of the builds in this Game are Almost identical In Difficulty rating barring A few mesmer and Elementalist builds effectively.

Difficulty. is to a extent based on Opinon ontop of this realistically depends where u are in the game, where ur experience is and more. if u've played Elementalist for 1000 hours and Suddenly take a U Turn and main Guardian. u will find Guardian harder then Elementalist. Why? Because in a MMORPG. effectively every proffession gets Easier. Over time. their built to do exactly that.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[LKEY.9567]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

thats actually a very untrue statement to make realistically.

Theres a Reason no highly accepted Guides / Build Sites review majority of these at a 3/5 Difficulty rating minimum. and why "Easy" Versions of each of these builds exist. they arent the easiest classes in the game. the only one of the 3 u could consider to not have a rotation is Scourge. however Firebrand Alacrenegade Defintly do.

People like to cling to specific builds and decide the entire proffessions difficulty off the back of it,Yes Alacrenegades ability to apply 10 man Alac is very easy. howevers to Maximise its DPS etc etc around doing that, isnt easy Unless ur going shortbow Alacbot which is Intentionally Worse performing for the sake of being easier to approach.

People like to screech how hard weaver is based on its Condi builds.. while ignoring how easy Power Weaver is to play, are we forgetting it has a 25k DPS Auto attack build in Air?... or the fact Herald has a 30k DPS boon Specc which applies boons and Does 30k DPS With a Auto attack? lol.

They arent the easiest Speccs in the game Lmfao. any respectable site States completely against you in these fashions.

their the Most played Proffessions because they are the most efficent combination thats just end story realistically. their Utility options, Damage and More all work amazing in Fractals, if u look earlier Infusion showed u some really good math into exactly what makes em so powerful realistically. Exposed is Always going to make Burst Condi do amazing in such fights.

people like to just label "Easy mode" on everything.. even tho 99% of the builds in this Game are Almost identical In Difficulty rating barring A few mesmer and Elementalist builds effectively.

Difficulty. is to a extent based on Opinon ontop of this realistically depends where u are in the game, where ur experience is and more. if u've played Elementalist for 1000 hours and Suddenly take a U Turn and main Guardian. u will find Guardian harder then Elementalist. Why? Because in a MMORPG. effectively every proffession gets Easier. Over time. their built to do exactly that.

I could specify it differently as I agree with you in most cases.

These 3 classes have very low floor skill but their ceiling may differ. I agree upon that.

I am sorry but I am bitter on fractals as my subjective and private opinion is not very high.

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, LKEY.9567 said:

I could specify it differently as I agree with you in most cases.

These 3 classes have very low floor skill but their ceiling may differ. I agree upon that.

I am sorry but I am bitter on fractals as my subjective and private opinion is not very high.

Sadly that's because it seems these boons are a after thought and thrown on a single spammable ability. 

Alac ren got alac thrown on F2. Mirage got alac thrown on it with their dodge auto fires, they make the boon applications brain dead so the skill floor (upholding the boon itself) incredibly low. 

I wish we would see more interesting ways to apply boons.

[anbujackson.9564]

Since the topic 'boon application' was brought to the table, I'm giving my two cents on it:

 

The removal of hidden stacks on boons was a massive failure. You had to actually pay attention to how many stacks you apply at once before you waste them. With those gone, people get encouraged to spam even more low duration boons. Condi ren RR (x2) got a huge QOL with this. Alacrity should have gotten the quickness treatment also, which was 5 stacks. But hey, removing the easiest way to control boon application was widely accepted by the community. I just facepalmed. Im not a fan of those fixed durations for boons, since 30 seconds for the important ones is still way too long. Should have just decreased the amount of hidden stacks until perma uptime is only accomplished by timing your skills right, so you dont encourage degenerate spammy playstyles (for example firebrand).

 

And about the scourges in fractals:

 

They arent just a convinient way to safely clear. If you fail to do good on scourge, then you most likely fail to do so on other classes as well (except bursting on breakbars as firebrand). There is hardly anything that you can kitten up. You only have to use one specific combination of 2 skills and spam the rest OCD, a good part having no or next to no cast time. No weapon swap, no bundles, no dodges, no nothing. And they arent just good in CM's, they are good in pretty much any fractal since they have the best cleave in the game. Just like how they are performing ridicously well on most raid encounters. And dont start this 'but dude their benchmark is only 37,5k; other classes have even more!'. Yeah those 2-3k extra damage they loose (and even more) as soon as they cant facewalk the boss anymore.

Edited November 24, 2021 by anbujackson.9564