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I noticed what I think is hurting the diversity of the builds we see in PvP. 

We either have taunt/fear spams, leaving players unable to do much about anything for way too long.

Then we have similar cases of CC everlasting

As well as professions that can spam almost all conditions with stack in a row. My condi cleanse can only sustain so many times. 

 

In the end we find ourselves tied to builds with condi sustain, taking traits, skills and weapons which allow some condi cleanse. 

Now I do have a couple of builds running heavy with conditions in matches, but I still think it is an issue in PvP. 

Personally I would like to see some limitation.
1 - Hard limit for conditions for how long they can affect you regardless of stack, I am looking at you Fear/Taunt. 

2 - PC should have a tolerance against CC's such as immobilize/fear/taunt - effectively giving immunity after x-amount of CC, lasting x-amount of time. Or building tolerance during the match, lowering how long it affects the player over time during the match, a 4sec immo in the beginning of the game, maybe only lasting 0-1sec by the end depending on how many times the PC was affected.  

3 - Maybe a hard limit on total conditions affecting a player, or hard limit on condition stacking. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, ovenglove.9528 said:

You aren't supposed to sustain condis forever using cleanses and traits. If you get hit with lots of condis over and over you should die. Why make condis less effective when in general for most classes power is more effective?

Because in most cases, power has been made not effective enough to deal with condi specs before they can overwhelm you, right now only thief and ranger have high burst enough to deal with heavy condi classes before giving them a chance to kill anything.

 

Problem with condi build atm is that they are always linked to bunker specs, so condition damage is not the problem really, the issue is professions reaching high condi dmg while 2-3 defensive traitlines 

 

A proper power spec by comparison will take 2-3 offensive traitlines...you can see why the OP and many others have an issue with condi in GW2, people are not against DOT dmg, they are against the idiotic implementation in GW2

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1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Because in most cases, power has been made not effective enough to deal with condi specs before they can overwhelm you, right now only thief and ranger have high burst enough to deal with heavy condi classes before giving them a chance to kill anything.

 

Problem with condi build atm is that they are always linked to bunker specs, so condition damage is not the problem really, the issue is professions reaching high condi dmg while 2-3 defensive traitlines 

 

A proper power spec by comparison will take 2-3 offensive traitlines...you can see why the OP and many others have an issue with condi in GW2, people are not against DOT dmg, they are against the idiotic implementation in GW2

 

The stupid thing about condis in this game is that u can A) Spamm them like nothing and B) Can Burst it and C) Because of the nature of condis your much more tankier.  And the secret D) Condi is overall much more forgiving than Power and because of the capping mode also easier to play (fields spamm). Then E) because everyone joins mostly random u end up often in a team without any condiremove and then you are simply a sitting duck. That means overall that the balance between the Modes and the Condifiesta is bad and unfun. Something that the Devs really have to look into after EoD (other modes maybe where u don' have to cap?). It is also worse in WvWvW. And it is maybe just me but after all i also find the CC Spamm really unfun.

Edited by Grebcol.5984
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Yes I am referring to the Random Arena team fights. I am not against having different modes have different rules. Overall though as mentioned condi spams are just that, spams. Rarely relying on much skill in when and how to use it, and more of spamming the skills. Your only break being cooldowns.

 

In GW this wasn't an issue, because of - energy bar - you could spam only so far as your energy kept you going, hence the use of skills was much more carefully selected during matches. 

Since GW2 doesn't have energy bars, and won't, outside of PvE, yeah I think some limitations could be good. From this section alone I am obviously not the only one.

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While i hit 10k with a single move vault. Or 7k with a single move true shot. Or i 100 to 0 you with traps and hammer 2 on gaurdian no matter how many times i get DMs and litterally one shot people out of stealth i come to the forums and hear not about crazy valkyrie int rune builds that are incredibly tanky and  can one shot you i hear about condition spam.

Let that sink in. People should ignore this thread and Anet you should definitely ignore this.

Edited by Genesis.5169
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On 11/24/2021 at 9:42 AM, usernameisapain.7163 said:

I noticed what I think is hurting the diversity of the builds we see in PvP. 

We either have taunt/fear spams, leaving players unable to do much about anything for way too long.

Then we have similar cases of CC everlasting

As well as professions that can spam almost all conditions with stack in a row. My condi cleanse can only sustain so many times. 

 

In the end we find ourselves tied to builds with condi sustain, taking traits, skills and weapons which allow some condi cleanse. 

Now I do have a couple of builds running heavy with conditions in matches, but I still think it is an issue in PvP. 

Personally I would like to see some limitation.
1 - Hard limit for conditions for how long they can affect you regardless of stack, I am looking at you Fear/Taunt. 

2 - PC should have a tolerance against CC's such as immobilize/fear/taunt - effectively giving immunity after x-amount of CC, lasting x-amount of time. Or building tolerance during the match, lowering how long it affects the player over time during the match, a 4sec immo in the beginning of the game, maybe only lasting 0-1sec by the end depending on how many times the PC was affected.  

3 - Maybe a hard limit on total conditions affecting a player, or hard limit on condition stacking. 
 

 

The meta is already power-heavy... so lets destroy condition builds!

1. Limit on fear/taunt duration: you're asking for the game to hold your hand. Oh you got feared, poor little thing, let me cut that short for you! Cleanses and stunbreaks are there for a reason, use them.
2. Building tolerance against CC: again asking for more handholding... good players either avoid getting CC-d and/or time their stunbreaks well, or go into fights with a bunker setup, designed to endure the punishment. And then there is you, wanting a reward (CC immunity) for getting hit by everything the enemy throws at you. I know an MMO that does things like this, there is a reason I'm not playing it!

3. Limit on condition stacks: out of all the metas we've had in the last decade, this is one of the few where there is absolutely no reason to ask for condi nerfs. +1-ing your sidenode on a condition build could result in your CC-s getting resisted and your condi damage getting culled to almost nothing, rendering you absolutely useless. HARD PASS.

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1 hour ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

The meta is already power-heavy... so lets destroy condition builds!

1. Limit on fear/taunt duration: you're asking for the game to hold your hand. Oh you got feared, poor little thing, let me cut that short for you! Cleanses and stunbreaks are there for a reason, use them.
2. Building tolerance against CC: again asking for more handholding... good players either avoid getting CC-d and/or time their stunbreaks well, or go into fights with a bunker setup, designed to endure the punishment. And then there is you, wanting a reward (CC immunity) for getting hit by everything the enemy throws at you. I know an MMO that does things like this, there is a reason I'm not playing it!

3. Limit on condition stacks: out of all the metas we've had in the last decade, this is one of the few where there is absolutely no reason to ask for condi nerfs. +1-ing your sidenode on a condition build could result in your CC-s getting resisted and your condi damage getting culled to almost nothing, rendering you absolutely useless. HARD PASS.

Good golly, power builds are the easiest to deal with. Condition builds and heavy CC builds are generally easy 1-1, sometimes 1-2 depending on player, but in larger groups that becomes impossible since you'll have spams coming from several directions. 

Right now the only "handholding" is on builds with conditions spams. Conditions can be very useful even when they aren't insta-cast everywhere. The meta perhaps is not determined so much by how conditions and CC works, but more with how the game is being balanced per profession, traits/skills. For example the amount of copy-paste ranger builds with GS right now is ridiculous, and easy to beat, but it is popular because of the GS block. 

You are also agreeing to my original point "Cleanses and stunbreaks are there for a reason, use them." which I am, did you read the original post? 

CC is also utilised by power builds so this wouldn't only affect condition heavy builds. 

I think you attitude is pretty bad here, but let us get to point "2", Even with dodge heavy builds, with stunbreaks in traits and utility, I can still find myself CC'd several times, even after dodging and breaking stuns. Not really an issue in 1-1, or 1-2, but in group fights, I don't know what type of endurance build you're running where this is not an issue. Which brings me back to the original post, I believe that we see build limitations because of this. You call it handholding, I call it skill-management. The idea of tolerance, was just that, an idea, but not necessarily bad, let's say CC duration goes to a minimum of 50% after a PC getting CC'd 20 separate times in a match,  the CC is still there, just less so. 

I would hardly call it a "reward", funnily enough, for you this seems to make the game easier, whereas from my perspective it would make the game more challenging. Although I guess it depends on which side of the coin you are looking, from CnD-Spammers, and CC heavy builds this would make it more challenging, whereas for other builds it would make live more easy. Of course any change to conditions and CC, would have to be balanced out with other functions and professions, probably stealth and infinity dodge of a profession like Daredevil would require adjusting as well and so on, this type of change would affect all classes. 

In the end we have a difference of opinion more than anything, whereas I think you misunderstood the original post as me wanting an easy-mode, no, I just find it boring and unimaginative. I prefer build diversity, because it makes random matches unpredictable and you'd have to think on your feet rather than your assumptions. Of course GW2 is weak when it comes to build diversity, and if it wasn't for the low playerbase I would probably dive back to GW PvP for some fun there. 

Edited by usernameisapain.7163
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2 hours ago, usernameisapain.7163 said:

Good golly, power builds are the easiest to deal with. Condition builds and heavy CC builds are generally easy 1-1, sometimes 1-2 depending on player, but in larger groups that becomes impossible since you'll have spams coming from several directions. 

Right now the only "handholding" is on builds with conditions spams. Conditions can be very useful even when they aren't insta-cast everywhere. The meta perhaps is not determined so much by how conditions and CC works, but more with how the game is being balanced per profession, traits/skills. For example the amount of copy-paste ranger builds with GS right now is ridiculous, and easy to beat, but it is popular because of the GS block. 

You are also agreeing to my original point "Cleanses and stunbreaks are there for a reason, use them." which I am, did you read the original post? 

CC is also utilised by power builds so this wouldn't only affect condition heavy builds. 

I think you attitude is pretty bad here, but let us get to point "2", Even with dodge heavy builds, with stunbreaks in traits and utility, I can still find myself CC'd several times, even after dodging and breaking stuns. Not really an issue in 1-1, or 1-2, but in group fights, I don't know what type of endurance build you're running where this is not an issue. Which brings me back to the original post, I believe that we see build limitations because of this. You call it handholding, I call it skill-management. The idea of tolerance, was just that, an idea, but not necessarily bad, let's say CC duration goes to a minimum of 50% after a PC getting CC'd 20 separate times in a match,  the CC is still there, just less so. 

I would hardly call it a "reward", funnily enough, for you this seems to make the game easier, whereas from my perspective it would make the game more challenging. Although I guess it depends on which side of the coin you are looking, from CnD-Spammers, and CC heavy builds this would make it more challenging, whereas for other builds it would make live more easy. Of course any change to conditions and CC, would have to be balanced out with other functions and professions, probably stealth and infinity dodge of a profession like Daredevil would require adjusting as well and so on, this type of change would affect all classes. 

In the end we have a difference of opinion more than anything, whereas I think you misunderstood the original post as me wanting an easy-mode, no, I just find it boring and unimaginative. I prefer build diversity, because it makes random matches unpredictable and you'd have to think on your feet rather than your assumptions. Of course GW2 is weak when it comes to build diversity, and if it wasn't for the low playerbase I would probably dive back to GW PvP for some fun there. 

What a long and convoluted way of saying "i get hit by many things in teamfights, i don't like it, REEEEE"....

You asked what wonderful build I'm running to avoid getting spammed... it's called not being in the middle of a teamfight. The Build invovles running any of the 9 classes with whatever traits you feel like, but you'll need lots of willpower. The teamfight is blowing up, tempting red circles and splash damage all over the place...  but you do not go into it. And the most unbeliveable part: if the red circles come for you, you use thr power of WASD to relocate. Problem solved.
You are supposed to be ripped to shreds if you stay in teamfights for too long. Game working as intended.

Condition damage is the same as power damace, it just doesn't hit you instantly. You get hit by a boatload of attacks that stack lethal amounts of conditions on you, congratulations if you were facing a power build you'd be already dead. Except with condition damage you can prolong yourself by hiding behind immunities/invulnerabilites or cleansing/healing through the damage before it fully occurs. And you're trying to spin this as handholding for condition damage builds.... just no. 

Also this 20 CC stacking a perma effect till the end of the match idea is... honestly in the top 3 worst thing's I've ever read on this forum. Boons, stealth, conditions, everything in  GW2 PvP lasts mere seconds, but for some reason an unremovable stacking buff (which is way stronger than than any aforementioned effect type) would be the perfect fit for this gamemode.
"Sure the CC heavy enemy teamcomp wiped the floor with us twice, but now we're stacked to the max, so dumb damage pumping comes out on top, lets go win boys..." the fact that you doubled down on this shows you have no gift for game balance or design.
 

 

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2 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

What a long and convoluted way of saying "i get hit by many things in teamfights, i don't like it, REEEEE"....

You asked what wonderful build I'm running to avoid getting spammed... it's called not being in the middle of a teamfight. The Build invovles running any of the 9 classes with whatever traits you feel like, but you'll need lots of willpower. The teamfight is blowing up, tempting red circles and splash damage all over the place...  but you do not go into it. And the most unbeliveable part: if the red circles come for you, you use thr power of WASD to relocate. Problem solved.
You are supposed to be ripped to shreds if you stay in teamfights for too long. Game working as intended.

Condition damage is the same as power damace, it just doesn't hit you instantly. You get hit by a boatload of attacks that stack lethal amounts of conditions on you, congratulations if you were facing a power build you'd be already dead. Except with condition damage you can prolong yourself by hiding behind immunities/invulnerabilites or cleansing/healing through the damage before it fully occurs. And you're trying to spin this as handholding for condition damage builds.... just no. 

Also this 20 CC stacking a perma effect till the end of the match idea is... honestly in the top 3 worst thing's I've ever read on this forum. Boons, stealth, conditions, everything in  GW2 PvP lasts mere seconds, but for some reason an unremovable stacking buff (which is way stronger than than any aforementioned effect type) would be the perfect fit for this gamemode.
"Sure the CC heavy enemy teamcomp wiped the floor with us twice, but now we're stacked to the max, so dumb damage pumping comes out on top, lets go win boys..." the fact that you doubled down on this shows you have no gift for game balance or design.
 

 

What a convoluted way of stating the obvious. 

My solution to team fights is largely the same, because it is obvious. I mean, you are still assuming a whole lot of things, you say you can trait differently and run, off, but simply not true, it limits playstyles, how many times have I not caught someone running away without them getting to put up a fight because they are running off and don't have the traits or utility skills to do so. To get caught off guard must not happen to you? Well in that case I am simply not quick enough, nor is a lot of players whom I catch or see get caught on the daily. 

The fact that you can't fathom the point shows how stuck you are in your ideas. Obviously we won't agree on this. To be said, stacking is a real issue with GW2, any pumping of damage be that condition or power is pretty dumb, yet you can only see the issue with one not the other. 

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22 minutes ago, usernameisapain.7163 said:

The fact that you can't fathom the point shows how stuck you are in your ideas. Obviously we won't agree on this. To be said, stacking is a real issue with GW2, any pumping of damage be that condition or power is pretty dumb, yet you can only see the issue with one not the other. 

Oh but of course I do see the issue with dealing damage. Having the ability to hurt eachother ingame is bad. I'm in full support of removing damage. Competition is inherently toxic, it should not be part of competetive PvP. It would also open up so many playstyles (like dancing in front of the enemy spawn or playing music to the enemy guild lord) that are just not viable now.

Edited by Bazsi.2734
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26 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Oh but of course I do see the issue with dealing damage. Having the ability to hurt eachother ingame is bad. I'm in full support of removing damage. Competition is inherently toxic, it should not be part of competetive PvP. It would also open up so many playstyles (like dancing in front of the enemy spawn or playing music to the enemy guild lord) that are just not viable now.

I realised too late that you must either be trolling, or then very incapable of understanding differing opinions with an open mind. I say healing should be increased slightly, and you would assume that I think that everyone should have self-regen that could tank anything. Incapable of civic discourse, not so healthy if you are participating in a conversation pal. 

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1 hour ago, usernameisapain.7163 said:

I realised too late that you must either be trolling, or then very incapable of understanding differing opinions with an open mind. I say healing should be increased slightly, and you would assume that I think that everyone should have self-regen that could tank anything. Incapable of civic discourse, not so healthy if you are participating in a conversation pal. 

Looks like you missed the part where he said if you died to a condition build burst if you were fighting a power build you would already be dead as power damage is instant and condition damage takes time to tick. And since you ignored that wonderful point which has no counterpoint mind you he has decided to follow my signature as trying to convince you would be a foolish ordeal.


Also @Bazsi.2734Thanks. I do not know if you read my sig or not but again thanks.

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1 hour ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Looks like you missed the part where he said if you died to a condition build burst if you were fighting a power build you would already be dead as power damage is instant and condition damage takes time to tick. And since you ignored that wonderful point which has no counterpoint mind you he has decided to follow my signature as trying to convince you would be a foolish ordeal.


Also @Bazsi.2734Thanks. I do not know if you read my sig or not but again thanks.

 

I didn't miss the point, nor did I discount it, I am not saying I am necessarily right or wrong. To discount it because power builds exist, doesn't mean that I am necessarily wrong, but perhaps points at a different issue with how power builds work. 

Personally I don't think the damage of conditions is an issue, but the ability to spam them so many times that you'll find yourself building against conditions over other traits/skills - perhaps if you didn't have to build against condis so much you could build more against power builds.

Whether that goes into the issue that, in GW2, you are more often stuck with either a condi, power, or boon build/heal build is a different discussion entirely.

The argument made about team-fights was decent enough, but rather than me trying to win any argument, which I am not, I just wanted some good ideas. If humans never questioned ideas, and tested new ones, we would still be in the stone age, trial and error.  

If someone disagrees, no issue, but defensively disagreeing like this, doesn't go anywhere, but derails the conversation. 

But yes, because you think something is bad, everyone must agree like sycophants ~~

I put the topic out there to see if someone had something interesting to say, if not, then not. Bazi had a few good points, but presented poorly, and some of the earlier comments, albeit short had validity as well, your own included. If no one has anything interesting to comment on it, well then don't leave a comment and the topic will die out, if no one had commented I certainly wouldn't have been replying. 

Anyhow, perhaps this discussion is best laid to rest, and if someone has something of value to add to the conversation, then they should of course feel free to, since this is a forum after all.

Edited by usernameisapain.7163
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The problem is not conditions alone, is spamming conditions + spamming mobility + spamming defense. In WvW is even worse because you can be carried by Celestial and Trailblazer. I play power herald, power renegade and cele renegade and this last one is simply stupid. 

Is ok playing with damage over time but when you combine it with being unreachable (ranger), being extremely tanky (core necro/scourge), being unkillable (ele) or why not, being all the three together (rene) it is just disgusting to play against and power has very little efficacy there.

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13 hours ago, usernameisapain.7163 said:

I realised too late that you must either be trolling, or then very incapable of understanding differing opinions with an open mind. I say healing should be increased slightly, and you would assume that I think that everyone should have self-regen that could tank anything. Incapable of civic discourse, not so healthy if you are participating in a conversation pal. 

"He dOeSn'T lIkE mY iDeA hE mUsT bE tRoLl". He knows the game much better than you and he provided proper arguments against your idea in 2 different ways. Don't have enough arguments? Call him troll ye. 
All you ask is to make game easier for bad players. That should not happen.

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4 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

"He dOeSn'T lIkE mY iDeA hE mUsT bE tRoLl". He knows the game much better than you and he provided proper arguments against your idea in 2 different ways. Don't have enough arguments? Call him troll ye. 
All you ask is to make game easier for bad players. That should not happen.

No, his argumentation style and dismissive attitude was what made me wonder. As mentioned a few good points were made. I can admit that perhaps the wrong wording was used here by me EDIT:as it was used as an empathiser of the point, hence the following "either" clearly I missed the mark, but I'll leave it unedited so your own comment makes sense.

Edited by usernameisapain.7163
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