Virtuoso changes for Beta 4 = damage reduction on most skills for PvE

[Daniel Handler.4816]

13 minutes ago, Caid.4932 said:

Disappointing, needs more.

Dagger needs new skills, needs to be more variety and usability to shatters. Utility, heal and elite all need more quality of life changes and lower cooldowns

In their defense. It is extremely hard to make large changes with so many bugs. 

How would they tweak the cooldown of the heal when all of their data was from before illusionary inspiration and signet of the ether were working with stocking a blade?

Edited November 25, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Heika.5403]

26 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Bladesongs can be made unblockable. The elite is unblockable by default. This alone means it can be used in WvW zerging. So yes

Can...  cd, cd, cd ... with what effectiveness to have any relevance?  You can see the duster for miles. Tell me what you compete with, what you offer and I will tell you who you are or what you are in comparison.

[Levetty.1279]

33 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Bladesongs can be made unblockable. The elite is unblockable by default. This alone means it can be used in WvW zerging. So yes

The elite now does no damage and you need to keep the target in the tiny area longer.

 

Bladesongs are pierce and thus not useful for zergs.

[Infusion.7149]

We'll see how it pans out but it doesn't seem to be in a good direction. In addition, Bladesongs will be more or less unusable in WVW/PVP against projectile hate since you are reliant on Psychic Riposte for unblockable.

[Xenesis.6389]

51 minutes ago, Jokubas.4265 said:

I also think that the Elite Specializations aren't exactly supposed to appeal to current players of the Profession. If you already like the playstyle of the Profession or an existing Elite Spec, then you're good, you can and probably are already just playing that.

A new Elite Specialization offering a new playstyle sort of by definition conflicts with that, so it's better off being attractive if it's a new playstyle for a Profession that previously didn't have a playstyle that you liked. It feels underwhelming for your own Profession, but it kinda makes sense.

 

Sooooo they're selling virtuoso spec to players who don't play mesmer and not the current mesmers? So as a mesmer main I should be looking at a different new spec on another class that plays like mesmer as an excuse to buy the expansion? Does that really make sense to you? I guess we should be looking at Specter for it's wells and alacrity spam as the chrono replacement huh?

 

Well good news for anet, none of these specs will be needed for wvw anyways, so not buying the expansion.

[Zoser.7245]

1 hour ago, Heika.5403 said:

Can...  cd, cd, cd ... with what effectiveness to have any relevance?  You can see the duster for miles. Tell me what you compete with, what you offer and I will tell you who you are or what you are in comparison.

That is part of the whole picture... I commented it at the feedback thread, once they'll balance around the numbers of blades and blades generation capabilities...  The nerf was more than obvious once bugs are fixed... or can we call it integration with core mesmer? lol.  You'll be in the same spot but with less burst related to the time/resouces available along the time.  Test it next week 😉

I said it before.  What do you bring on the table aside reflectable dps?  Others can go full ofensive with sustain. You must go with defensive traitlines and signet to get something valuable in that sense... and I say something because I do not know to what extent it will be interesting in exchange for what you give up when others do not need to make that sacrifice and also support their allies by increasing the overall damage of the team without sacrificing survival... The source of the sustain matters. How to enhance it too. Shared damage matters, its source and how it is managed too. How do you contribute? If you don't bring anything interesting, how do you make up for it? DPS is one of the balanced variables so you can't expect much difference from the rest. So... your value will depend on how much more you contribute to the team, or how lethal you can be individually to kill quickly but without mobility...

That's not to say it's not fun... Clowns are fun too...

Edited November 25, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[Mik.3401]

Very disappointed but not surprised unfortunately.

I don’t think this can even beat domi-illusions-duel core in PvP which is already far away from meta. Like - whatever line out of those you replace with virtuoso you will loose a lot just to get ready shatters for pre-battle. Not to mention these new shatters are just worse and generating 3 clones is easy.

And that 5% extra damage added - well both perks from illusions and dueling are just better considering domi is always there for power build.

There’s absolutely no reason to take it for power builds and obviously not condi too. One thing it had was raid dps potential but not it is kind of gone too

I think it is a statement from them - Mesmer is kind of done, it has power spec and condi spec and they are done with figuring out new variants

Edited November 25, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Skyroar.2974]

Are we sure that overall damage has been nerfed? Have people done the math?

Phantasms have been buffed, shattering grants a damage buff, and we're generally going to shatter a lot more often now, including at the beginning of combat. All the damage nerfs elsewhere seem like they were meant to compensate for that.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Skyroar.2974

[Skyroar.2974]

BTW, Signet of the Ether and Illusionary Inspiration will be very interesting choices for Virtuoso, won't they? With how often the Virtuoso will be able to stock blades now, that's a lot of self-healing for a power build.

If EoD give us a good armor stat set for power builds with healing, a Virtuoso can end up with pretty good solo sustain in a way that non-condition builds for Mesmer don't quite have so far.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Skyroar.2974

[mortrialus.3062]

Pretty disappointed.  In Regards to SPvP Virtuoso had a wealth of issues both being very poor damagewise compared to other classes on Berserker's amulets to simply not having the tools needed to be an effective ranged damage dealer like other better ranged kids like Ranger and DH Longbow and Deadeye Rifle.  And none of that was addressed. 

It has no answer to downstates, it doesn't have the pressure of a herald or DH to prevent a rez and without true distortion it has no way to safe stomp.  It has no answer to getting jumped by thieves and heralds as both thieves and revs can get around the F4 block with their own unblockables. It has no way to keep enemies away and no real answer for when they do make it into melee range. 

Like they talk about buffing condition traits.  But Staff and Scepter get 50% of their auto attack damage from clones on condition builds.  So going Virtuoso and trying to play condi inherently nerfs those weapons unnecessarily.  And they bothered to update the condition traits but not how Virtuoso interacts with those core weapons. 

CMC's deranged vendetta against mesmers strikes again. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Leonidrex.5649]

Minimum effort and it shows

[Zoser.7245]

7 minutes ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Are we sure that overall damage has been nerfed? Have people done the math?

Phantasms have been buffed, shattering grants a damage buff, and we're generally going to shatter a lot more often now, including at the beginning of combat. All the damage nerfs elsewhere seem like they were meant to compensate for that.

You are answering yourself...   Call it "BALANCE".   No one is talking of nerf more than a shift that solves nothing and makes you less bursty. Compensated.  LoL.

 

With the design problems that the Virtuoso has... to be competitive. What do you gain by being more predictable in damage? Maybe be a better carnival duck to shoot... In PvE nothing will change, "Bloodsong" will be a must anyways,  except hitting some mobs harder at the beginning if you have time to stack enough blades.  Ohhh maybe that is the key to sell it.

[mortrialus.3062]

2 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Bladesongs can be made unblockable. The elite is unblockable by default. This alone means it can be used in WvW zerging. So yes

Thousand Cuts before was about 7k damage in PvP and WvW if it actually manage to ever hit every shot on a target, even though hitting a single shot itself was a miracle.  They've reduced that damage by half. 

The unblockable bladesong change is okay, but as a very squishy ranged damage dealer you want to avoid being noticed and attacked and out of range as much as possible in the first place. 

The comparison I made before is that like by the time you get finished dodging an attack your self quickness is half gone already.  While Soulbeast will get self quickness from using beast skills, thus giving them access to it for free as they go on the offensive.  The bonuses for blocking and dodging are not good on Virtuoso.

Edited November 25, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[mortrialus.3062]

10 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Minimum effort and it shows

Sums up virtuoso quite well tbh

[Leonidrex.5649]

4 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Sums up virtuoso quite well tbh

kid of a shame, I play ranger too and untamed got a LOT of good changes.
and honestly, in this state I would rather virtuoso be dead, the only way this spec will work is by going inspiration, and getting passive braindead healing through it, then spamming shatters to get another passive braindead sustain through aegis.
necromancer level gameplay

[Tseison.4659]

5 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Full List of Changes to Virtuoso:

Gameplay Changes:

• While out of combat, the Virtuoso will now automatically stock a blade every 10 seconds.⭐

Skill and Trait Adjustments:

Bladesongs:

• Bladesong Harmony: Damage coefficient per blade reduced from 0.8 to 0.7 in PvE only.
• Bladesong Dissonance: Damage coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 1 in PvE only.
• Bladeturn Requiem: Damage coefficient reduced from 0.3 to 0.2 in PvE only. Base block duration set to 2s. 

Dagger:

• Flying Cutter: Damage coefficient per hit reduced from 0.65 to 0.5 in PvE only.
• Flying Cutter: Added a skill fact to clarify that each count towards causing a bonus flurry of blades will expire after 5 seconds if not 'used' by reaching a count of 3. This is not a functionality change.
• Bladecall: Damage coefficient per hit reduced from 0.6 to 0.5 in PvE only.
• Unstable Bladestorm: Increased power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.25 in PvP and WvW.

Utility Skills:

• Thousand Cuts: Recharge reduced from 75s to 60s in PvE only. This skill is now unblockable. Can now be aimed in any direction while moving. This skill is now cast instantly. Number of hits increased from 6 over 3s to 10 over 5s. Damage coefficient per hit reduced from 2 to 0.5 in PvE, and from 1 to 0.5 in PvP and WvW.
• Rain of Swords: Damage coefficient per hit reduced from 1 to 0.8 in PvE only.
• Psychic Force: Reduced cooldown from 45 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW.

Traits:

• Psychic Riposte: Blades stocked on activation increased from 1 to 3. Internal cooldown increased from 1s to 3s. No longer fires a damaging attack when triggered, instead causes your next Bladesong to be unblockable.⭐
• Infinite Forge: No longer capped at a maximum of 3 blades.⭐
• Quiet Intensity: Your summoned phantasms now also gain the increased critical strike chance from Fury.
• Duelist's Reversal: Now additionally grants Regeneration for 3s.
• Deadly Blades: Now additionally grants a 5% increase to all damage dealt for the next 5s after successfully casting a Bladesong skill.
• Jagged Mind: Bleed duration increased from 2s to 2.5s in PvE only.

Core Mesmer:

• Signet of the Ether: Added clarifying text stating that for Virtuoso, this skill's passive effect triggers when stocking a blade.
• Illusionary Inspiration: Added clarifying text stating that for Virtuoso, this trait triggers when stocking a blade.
• Illusionary Defense: Added clarifying text stating that for Virtuoso, this trait triggers when stocking a blade.
• Compounding Power: Added clarifying text stating that for Virtuoso, this trait triggers when stocking a blade.
• Signet of the Ether: Added clarifying text stating that for Virtuoso, this skill's passive effect triggers when stocking a blade.
• Decoy: Will now stock a blade if used out of combat. Previously this skill only stocked a blade if a target was in range.
• Mirror Images: May now be used out of combat to stock two blades. Previously this skill only stocked blades if a target was in range.

Bug Fixes:

• Signet of the Ether: Fixed a bug preventing the passive heal effect of this signet from occurring when you stock a Blade.
• Illusionary Inspiration: Fixed a bug preventing this trait from activating and healing nearby allies when you stock a Blade.
• Imminent Voyage: Fixed a bug causing this skill to create a clone instead of stocking a blade when used by a Virtuoso.
• Feigned Surge: Fixed a bug causing this skill to create a clone instead of stocking a blade when used by a Virtuoso.
• Bountiful Disillusionment: Fixed a bug allowing boons to be gained when using a Bladesong even when that Bladesong's cast was aborted.
• Bladesong Sorrow: Fixed a bug in which Bladesong Sorrow did not apply Confusion if the trait Sharpening Sorrow was equipped.
• Bladesong Sorrow: Fixed a bug in which Bladesong Sorrow could hit additional times if you are standing inside the targets' hitbox.
• Bladeturn Requiem: Skill effects now properly cancel if this skill is aborted mid-execution.
• Inspiring Distortion: Fixed a bug in which this trait did not activate when a Virtuoso uses Bladeturn Requiem.
• Ether Clone: Fixed a bug in which this skill did not stock blades for a Virtuoso past a maximum of 3.
• Mental Focus: Updated to correctly display that the damage increase to targets within the distance threshold is 10% in PvE. This is not a reduction in the actual power of this trait, the displayed 15% in Beta 1 was incorrect, and the actual bonus damage granted is 10%.

Firstly, thank you for posting this for us. Now that I've gotten a chance to fully read through the "changes" they've done so far, I pretty much saw only 3 changes in terms of more ways to stock blades which along with myself have mentioned in the feedback thread as to what Virtuoso could use. I had also mentioned about the Bladesongs being unblockable, however, I don't like that it's now tied behind having to successfully dodge/block an attack. Regardless, they seem to be set on keeping it so I guess i'll take it for what it is and see how it is in-game. Now with all of these new traits that help us generate more blades, I'm wondering why they couldn't give the bladesongs an extra charge?

Additionally, they still didn't listen to our feedback in regards to the condition line still being present when clearly this is a pure dps spec only. Then we have the Jagged Mind trait still around when Sharper Images could easily affect Blades to begin with. Other than what I just mentioned, it seems all we got from deaf ears is damage reduction, more ways to generate blades, minor cooldown reduction and the same'ole shatters and condition traitline...

[Zoser.7245]

27 minutes ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

BTW, Signet of the Ether and Illusionary Inspiration will be very interesting choices for Virtuoso, won't they? With how often the Virtuoso will be able to stock blades now, that's a lot of self-healing for a power build.

If EoD give us a good armor stat set for power builds with healing, a Virtuoso can end up with pretty good solo sustain in a way that non-condition builds for Mesmer don't quite have so far.

Being mesmer at heart I thought the same at the beginning. But NO. That forces you to go into a defensive trait line losing "A LOT"  being a Virtuoso as it lacks several survival capabilities taking it's trait line and adding nothing by itself  aside the blade generation ratio.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[Zoser.7245]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

kid of a shame, I play ranger too and untamed got a LOT of good changes.
and honestly, in this state I would rather virtuoso be dead, the only way this spec will work is by going inspiration, and getting passive braindead healing through it, then spamming shatters to get another passive braindead sustain through aegis.
necromancer level gameplay

Hey Cowboy. STOPS!!!  The source of sustain matters... 😜 Maybe Mr. Channeled Hard CC must have some words with you 😁 Yes, even in a 5 vs 5.  In other games they use a 4D contitions stacking matrix to manage it.  Here, if i remember well, at most we have a no more than X applied by skill per pulse or something else, despite its duration, pulse ratio, etc, etc. 

Perfect for PVE however, endless in a wet dream 😍😇 But... No word for competitive? What is that in gw2? 🙄

Maybe it should rethinked everywhere without lose or forget the/to solo capability of the content.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[otto.5684]

I like how Anet talked about feedback no one gave, answered questions no one asked and made changes that dont change much. At least Virtuso was decent in PvE. I just hope the damage nerf swing is not as bad as it seems.

[mortrialus.3062]

34 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

I like how Anet talked about feedback no one gave, answered questions no one asked and made changes that dont change much. At least Virtuso was decent in PvE. I just hope the damage nerf swing is not as bad as it seems.

I don't recall anyone saying blades were too hard to generate.  What I recall was people saying the bladesongs are too much of a downgrade from core shatters even with max blades.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

I don't recall anyone saying blades were too hard to generate.  What I recall was people saying the bladesongs are too much of a downgrade from core shatters even with max blades.

I said that 5 blades were harder to get than 3 clones in the sense that mesmer is designed around the number 3 and not 5, perhaps they are dumb enough to misinterpret that as in we need more blades. 

I don't even know why the kitten they ask for feedback if they straight-up ignore everything and keep spreading their pathetic ideas. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Careful the white knights will come and say all the changes were great and is much needed.

Also after reading so much feedback I don't recall those changes being extremely popular of the bunch....so I don't know where they are pulling those "feedbacks" from...

Not only is the damage nerfed for PvE but it is still garbage for competitive game modes lulz. What is there left to even talk about.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Salt Mode.3780]

31 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I said that 5 blades were harder to get than 3 clones in the sense that mesmer is designed around the number 3 and not 5, perhaps they are dumb enough to misinterpret that as in we need more blades. 

I don't even know why the kitten they ask for feedback if they straight-up ignore everything and keep spreading their pathetic ideas. 

imagine wasting stunbreaks so you can get more blades to start off with at the same time crippling urself mid battle cuz those stunbreaks that you can use to stock up on blades are on CD lulz.

[Frostbyte.8314]

Somebody did the math in SC's discord. So we just went from 41.2k to 37.6k for larger hitbox. Minus it to about 1.3k in small hitbox and we got 36.3k. How is this supposedly power spec much lower than a pChrono who is not designed as a power spec in the first place...?

Edited November 25, 2021 by Frostbyte.8314

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

6 hours ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Are we sure that overall damage has been nerfed? Have people done the math?

Phantasms have been buffed, shattering grants a damage buff, and we're generally going to shatter a lot more often now, including at the beginning of combat. All the damage nerfs elsewhere seem like they were meant to compensate for that.

On the PVP/WvW side the damage was buffed slightly, except for Thousand Cuts which has had its damage spread out to take longer (which means more missed hits).  This isn't much of a consolation, considering that many of the blade skills and traits are nerfed beyond the standard 66% reduction for no discernable reason. 

On the PVE side it is nerfed.  The reduction in all of the coefficients is greater than the 5% increase after shattering.  The bonus to Deadly Blades is also the worst timed one that anet could give, because you get all of your stocked blades when using all of your skills.  There is no skill left to use once you have all of your blades up.  There's no point to the greater blade generation in PVE, since the builds there were already stacking 5 blades before Harmony left cooldown.  The phantasm buff is minor, and probably will not compensate for the nerfs.

 

--------------

 

They didn't fix the two biggest problems that Virtuoso had, which is dagger projectile speed and lackluster condi traits.  The problem wasn't that Sorrow wasn't inflicting confusion.  The problem is that 1 second of bleed per crit is a terribly low amount of condition damage.  In response to this problem the bleed rate was... not changed for PVP/WvW.  It was increased from 2 to 2.5 in PVE, which is still sub-par when you consider that the standard for these kinds of traits and abilities is 4 seconds long no matter which game mode you're in.