Virtuoso changes for Beta 4 = damage reduction on most skills for PvE

[Levetty.1279]

7 hours ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

we're generally going to shatter a lot more often now, including at the beginning of combat

No we aren't. Core, Chrono and beta 1 Virtuoso already shatter on cooldown.

 

7 hours ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

BTW, Signet of the Ether and Illusionary Inspiration will be very interesting choices for Virtuoso, won't they? With how often the Virtuoso will be able to stock blades now, that's a lot of self-healing for a power build.

If EoD give us a good armor stat set for power builds with healing, a Virtuoso can end up with pretty good solo sustain in a way that non-condition builds for Mesmer don't quite have so far.

Should have just added a life steal trait, would be far better and wouldn't have to gut our already weak damage to use it.

[Yoci.2481]

5 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

Are the forums bugged? I submitted a post, nothing happened, website seemed like it crashed and then posted 4 times..

Sorry for the inconvenience, the web guy is busy working on Virtuoso.

[Sodeni.6041]

I'm so done with the devs...

They adressed 0 issues of the Virtuoso. I mean... yeah the passive blade generation out of combat is nice but that's it.

Untamed got new ambush skills, harbinger got a complete overhaul of some mechanics and all utilities and added utility damage effects, catalyst got overhauls as well that are significant and Virtuoso got NOTHING but nerfs and more passive blade generation that nobody asked for.

The 5 % dmg buff after using a bladesong is useless since they nerfed Virtuoso's damage overall by a lot.

For a "shatter focused" spec Virtuoso has no way of lowering the cooldown of the shatters.

F1-F4 still feel uninspired and are just a worse version of the base shatters, chrono shatters at least gave something new.

Still 0 mobility, 0 survivability, 0 condi cleanse, 2 utility aoes that do the same when they could be merged and give us an useful utility instead, no offhand dagger for mobility or condi cleans options, a weird unblockable "bandaid fix" for bladesongs that only triggers when you evade or block an attack like ???? that's so inconsistent..

At least I have my mirage that I can play and don't feel useless... They really should have gone for a proper Minstrel music spec as people wished for instead of this crap.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Sodeni.6041

[Levetty.1279]

Why would you even nerf the damage of Bladeturn Requiem? The damage was a joke, they could have doubled it and it wouldn't have made it good.

[greg.5673]

31 minutes ago, Sodeni.6041 said:

I'm so done with the devs...

They adressed 0 issues of the Virtuoso. I mean... yeah the passive blade generation out of combat is nice but that's it.

Untamed got new ambush skill, harbinger got a complete overhaul of some mechanics and all utilities and added utility damage effects, catalyst got overhauls as well that are significant and Virtuoso got NOTHING but nerfs and more passive blade generation that nobody asked for.

The 5 % dmg buff after using a bladesong is useless since they nerfed Virtuoso's damage overall by a lot.

For a "shatter focused" spec Virtuoso has no way of lowering the cooldown of the shatters.

F1-F4 still feel uninspired and are just a worse version of the base shatters, chrono shatters at least game something new.

Still 0 mobility, 0 survivability, 0 condi cleanse, 2 utility aoes that do the same when they could be merged and give us an useful utility instead, no offhand dagger for mobility or condi cleans options, a weird unblockable "bandaid fix" for bladesongs that only triggers when you evade or block an attack like ???? that's so inconsistent..

At least I have my mirage that I can play and don't feel useless... They really should have gone for a proper Minstrel music spec as people wished for instead of this crap.

Completely agree

 

Adding to this that the cast times of F1-4 still causes the rotations to be awfully clunky and way to predictable. You can know interrupt your own skills and flow if you are used to instant casts. 

This was a big demand in the forums etc. and it hasn’t even been addressed once. Have no idea where they imagined the rest. 
 

Numbers can be readdressed - doubt - but just the general feeling feels off and useless. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by greg.5673

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

42 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Why would you even nerf the damage of Bladeturn Requiem? The damage was a joke, they could have doubled it and it wouldn't have made it good.

They should just delete the damage and make the shield explode on demand like auras. kittening kitten design that will get you killed. 

[mortrialus.3062]

One of the things that kills me is they went even harder on the block traitline. Quickness on block and evade sounds okay but it's such a short duration that by the time you finish your block or dodge animation the quickness is gone anyway.

The unblockable when you block is bad for the same reason.  If they're blocking they aren't going to trigger your access to unblockable since they probably aren't attacking, and if they are attacking allowing you to block you don't need the unblockable.  You'll never get the unblockable bladesongs when you need it.  Only when you don't need it.

 

This spec is a design mess. A complete conceptual trainwreck.

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Mik.3401]

3 hours ago, Frostbyte.8314 said:

Somebody did the math in SC's discord. So we just went from 41.2k to 37.6k for larger hitbox. Minus it to about 1.3k in small hitbox and we got 36.3k. How is this supposedly power spec much lower than a pChrono who is not designed as a power spec in the first place...?

Wow that’s a big drop, all I hope is that they don’t completely kill chronomancer just to let this new pathetic spec shine. But hey - it is coming.

I’m not sure if giving them any additional feedback after the second beta makes any sense. I think we all expressed our opinions/feedback in good spirit to keep the class viable. It is their choice to ignore 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Leonidrex.5649]

Honestly, dps nerfs were expected as 41,2k dps is too high IMO ( we dont need that much dps )
the issue is that virtuoso is still bad mechanically, numbers can be adjusted AFTER the spec is functional, this looks to me like devs are already done virtuoso, and want it to get its ~35k raid dps and move on

[zealex.9410]

15 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Bladesongs can be made unblockable. The elite is unblockable by default. This alone means it can be used in WvW zerging. So yes

I dont think a blade song being unblockable every couple seconds and the unblockable elite nevessarily make this serg viable but its a step i suppose.

 

Trait still remain boring as fk.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

The unblockable bit is not even dependent on the player but on the enemy since you have to evade/block an attack plus it makes bladesongs even more predictable.

The one who had this awful idea should have a pine-tree grow out of his/her kitten. 

 

The only good thing about this change is that it doesnt shoot blades so you don't get revealed. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Fueki.4753]

I don't think the damage nerfs should have happened.

They should have compensated for that by making the Bladesongs instant as a baseline function, not a trait.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Jables.4659]

6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

the standard for these kinds of traits and abilities is 4 seconds long no matter which game mode you're in.

IIRC both Duelist's Discipline and Sharper Images are 2 seconds in wvw/pvp, which imo would be appropriate for Virtuoso's bleed trait.  That said, the new trait is doing what Sharper Images should already be doing.

[Xenesis.6389]

7 hours ago, Sodeni.6041 said:

I'm so done with the devs...

Still 0 mobility, 0 survivability, 0 condi cleanse, 2 utility aoes that do the same when they could be merged and give us an useful utility instead, no offhand dagger for mobility or condi cleans options, a weird unblockable "bandaid fix" for bladesongs that only triggers when you evade or block an attack like ???? that's so inconsistent..

It's like they forget that clones also serve another purpose other than being ammo for shatters, they're also the decoys/deception/misdirection part of mesmer defenses that's completely taken away now into blade ammo, and nothing in return for that, they could have at least made the shatters more unique in that way to provide more defenses somehow?

They made a spec for pure damage and nothing else, and it ain't even that good at damage lmao.

[Levetty.1279]

7 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Honestly, dps nerfs were expected as 41,2k dps is too high IMO ( we dont need that much dps )

You do when its a super squishy selfish DPS spec that brings no utility. 36k drops it way out of the running for a DPS spec.

[Exciton.8942]

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

You do when its a super squishy selfish DPS spec that brings no utility. 36k drops it way out of the running for a DPS spec.

I am pretty confident they will tune dps to a reasonably high level before launch. I am more worried about not doing enough with boring traits/skills.

[Obtena.7952]

24 minutes ago, Exciton.8942 said:

I am pretty confident they will tune dps to a reasonably high level before launch. I am more worried about not doing enough with boring traits/skills.

OOOF! I wouldn't get too confident about that. Let's remind ourselves that the LARGE spread in DPS for builds that define the meta and how few people fail to achieve those DPS standards in practice is a good indicator that DPS benchmarks are not good indicators of class changes except in the most extreme situations.  

[Levetty.1279]

27 minutes ago, Exciton.8942 said:

I am pretty confident they will tune dps to a reasonably high level before launch. I am more worried about not doing enough with boring traits/skills.

While the boring traits/skills are a bigger problem, the fact that they gutted the dps in the first place doesn't point to them buffing it back up.

[mortrialus.3062]

10 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Honestly, dps nerfs were expected as 41,2k dps is too high IMO ( we dont need that much dps )
the issue is that virtuoso is still bad mechanically, numbers can be adjusted AFTER the spec is functional, this looks to me like devs are already done virtuoso, and want it to get its ~35k raid dps and move on

~40k is pretty normal for selfish DPS specs.  Weaver, Dragon Hunter, Daredevil, Deadeye, Condi Renegage all benchmark for 40k on small hitboxes right now. 

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks

[zealex.9410]

On 11/25/2021 at 12:43 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

CMC just said on Mighty teapots stream that Virtuoso is supposed to be the shatter spec.

 

Have they not played core and Chronomancer? Can they not see how much worse bladesongs are then shatters? Is this the problem, virtuoso was designed by people who don't play Mesmer for people who don't play Mesmer?

 

Just delete the class Anet, it will be less painful.

You are over reacting, gemerally the gameplay with mesmer has been to piano all our shatters or in pvp spam them the moment we get clones. Deadly blades requires you to shatter once every 5 seconds and that could lead into a different type pf gameplay.

[Zenith.7301]

3 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

You are over reacting, gemerally the gameplay with mesmer has been to piano all our shatters or in pvp spam them the moment we get clones. Deadly blades requires you to shatter once every 5 seconds and that could lead into a different type pf gameplay.

 

 

Except not really because you can't get enough dagger gen to rotate shatters in the 5 sec window and still have 5 up for the F1. It'd be a significant DPS loss.

[Salt Mode.3780]

14 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Except not really because you can't get enough dagger gen to rotate shatters in the 5 sec window and still have 5 up for the F1. It'd be a significant DPS loss.

There is a reason why the original dev that worked on mesmer designed it to be 3 clones rather then 5....yet there are those who still think 5 is better then 3....

[Zenith.7301]

26 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

There is a reason why the original dev that worked on mesmer designed it to be 3 clones rather then 5....yet there are those who still think 5 is better then 3....

 

The number is irrelevant, it will always be throttled by the cooldown on phantasms and clone generation weaponskills. 5 would not be an issue if the cd on phantasms and sword 3 and dagger were lower to generate more blades.

 

But Anet does not make cohesive changes.

 

Instead it wastes time trying to make condition Virtuoso a thing when Mirage was already the condition spec and Virtuoso should have been the dedicated power spec. An entire row of traits wasted on a gimmick.

[Salt Mode.3780]

28 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

The number is irrelevant, it will always be throttled by the cooldown on phantasms and clone generation weaponskills. 5 would not be an issue if the cd on phantasms and sword 3 and dagger were lower to generate more blades.

 

But Anet does not make cohesive changes.

 

Instead it wastes time trying to make condition Virtuoso a thing when Mirage was already the condition spec and Virtuoso should have been the dedicated power spec. An entire row of traits wasted on a gimmick.

In which case numbers are relevant because the cooldowns were not made to change to accommodate the 5 blades. Fact is even with 5 blades you do less damage then with 3 clones and IP which is much easier to pull off in rotation then it is trying to generate 5 blades and dealing less damage.

Nor was there weapon skill CD reduction in any of the virtuoso trait lines OR psionic / utility CD reductions at all.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Bobajob.7136]

Hey guys let's not jump the gun.. it doesn't help developers improve the game. Infact quite the opposite. I look forward to testing the specs again!!!