Virtuoso changes for Beta 4 = damage reduction on most skills for PvE

[mortrialus.3062]

54 minutes ago, Bobajob.7136 said:

Hey guys let's not jump the gun.. it doesn't help developers improve the game. Infact quite the opposite. I look forward to testing the specs again!!!

Clearly none of the feedback remotely matters 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

4 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

The number is irrelevant, it will always be throttled by the cooldown on phantasms and clone generation weaponskills. 5 would not be an issue if the cd on phantasms and sword 3 and dagger were lower to generate more blades.

 

But Anet does not make cohesive changes.

 

Instead it wastes time trying to make condition Virtuoso a thing when Mirage was already the condition spec and Virtuoso should have been the dedicated power spec. An entire row of traits wasted on a gimmick.

The number is totally relevant. There's a reason each weaponset creates a minimum of 2 illusions and not 4, because it was balanced as 3 clone shatter. 

Seeing they screwed up they decided to create every major grandmaster as a blade fuel.

Incompetence at its best. 

[otto.5684]

1 hour ago, Bobajob.7136 said:

Hey guys let's not jump the gun.. it doesn't help developers improve the game. Infact quite the opposite. I look forward to testing the specs again!!!

I do agree with you. However, I do see an issue for this beta that is very concerning, among all classes. It seems Anet is more concerned with justifying why they are making changes instead of addressing feedback. Main issues with Virtuso were lack of sustain and projectile hate in PvP. Not seeing anything being addressed on either front. 

Even from PvE standpoint, the changes do not seem to address much from the issues that were raised. The blade generation out of combat is a minuscule issue. No one was expecting this spec to be a playable condi spec and the changes wont make it so. I do not even understand why it has condi traits, at all. The slow aoe projectiles will continue being a major issue. I am not really sure what are we supposed to test in this beta.

Edited November 26, 2021 by otto.5684

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Bobajob.7136 said:

Hey guys let's not jump the gun.. it doesn't help developers improve the game. Infact quite the opposite. I look forward to testing the specs again!!!

There are pages and pages  of feedback and they ignored every single one and changed nothing but killing the PvE DPS spec. Why should we waste time testing it again when nothing has changed?

[Levetty.1279]

Double post.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[Fueki.4753]

13 minutes ago, otto.5684 said:

I am not really sure what are we supposed to test in this beta.

I suspect we're supposed to test the new speed at which Blades are generated and can be shattered and then tell them if it feels good enough or not.

[Ombras.2853]

Stop being so negative.

 

I think all the changes that were made are absolutely on point, and they addressed most issues people were concerned about. If you were expecting a complete restyling of the class, it’s utterly obvious that it wasn’t happening.

 

Blade refill before combat: check.

Unblockability: check.

Better rotation: check.

 

Let’s talk about what it doesn’t do well: the damage output.

 

I do agree that it doesn’t make any sense, a power dps class that doesn’t have many redeemable feature outside of dealing damage has to be supported by numbers. Before the changes, Virtuoso was clunky but it worked - pve wise. With the current modifications, Virtuoso is much less clunky but the damage output doesn’t justify playing it instead of, say, a Power Chrono, which brings similar damage but also nice utility skills to the group.

 

Damage output can be tweaked, tho, and I’m sure it will be adjusted after testing it in the incoming beta.

 

Again, this class is a power dps. I understand that people are annoyed by the fact it doesn’t have much of the “Mesmer feeling” (I was also expecting something different) but that’s where the problem lies. We aren’t going to get a reworked core Mesmer, this is a power dps. When moving criticism, use this as a base line.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Ombras.2853

[mortrialus.3062]

11 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Stop being so negative.

 

I think all the changes that were made are absolutely on point, and they addressed most issues people were concerned about. If you were expecting a complete restyling of the class, it’s utterly obvious that it wasn’t happening.

 

Blade refill before combat: check.

Unblockability: check.

Better rotation: check.

The unblockable has not been remotely addressed.  Similar to the quickness on block and evade trait, it means you'll only ever get unblockable when you don't need it and won't have access to it when you do need it.

[Salt Mode.3780]

The biggest problems that weren't address are:

slow projectiles

the cast times of shatters

no utilities to disengage considering its a ranged spec

no condi cleanse

long kitten cooldowns on subpar utilities

elite that needs to be completely reworked

a weapon that is clunky to use with again slow projectiles

traits not offering cd reduction to weapon or psionic utilities

weird condi traits that offer nothing

 

So the fact that you think a unlockable for a trait is justified or being able to stock up blades before combat is issues address then I have no idea what you are reading in terms of feedbacks.

Being able to use decoy and mirror image both which are sunbreaks with a moderate cooldown in order for you to stock up 3 blades IS NOT JUSTIFIED. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[mortrialus.3062]

49 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Stop being so negative.

 

I think all the changes that were made are absolutely on point, and they addressed most issues people were concerned about. If you were expecting a complete restyling of the class, it’s utterly obvious that it wasn’t happening.

 

Blade refill before combat: check.

Unblockability: check.

Better rotation: check.

 

Let’s talk about what it doesn’t do well: the damage output.

 

I do agree that it doesn’t make any sense, a power dps class that doesn’t have many redeemable feature outside of dealing damage has to be supported by numbers. Before the changes, Virtuoso was clunky but it worked - pve wise. With the current modifications, Virtuoso is much less clunky but the damage output doesn’t justify playing it instead of, say, a Power Chrono, which brings similar damage but also nice utility skills to the group.

 

Damage output can be tweaked, tho, and I’m sure it will be adjusted after testing it in the incoming beta.

 

Again, this class is a power dps. I understand that people are annoyed by the fact it doesn’t have much of the “Mesmer feeling” (I was also expecting something different) but that’s where the problem lies. We aren’t going to get a reworked core Mesmer, this is a power dps. When moving criticism, use this as a base line.

Also this is even more dumb because stuff like Willbender got their entire traitline reworked.  Untamed got new ambush skills on every weapon. Catalyst got a radically changed elite skill functionality.  There was room for big changes the spec needs if they bothered listening.

[Levetty.1279]

54 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Blade refill before combat: check.

Not a problem

54 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Unblockability: check.

They even said themselves in MIghty Teapots stream that this wasn't adressed.

54 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Better rotation: check.

Literally the same. The rotation started off with a shatter and you used F1 and F2 on cooldown, now its the same.

 

55 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

they addressed most issues people were concerned about

Absolutely lie.

 

56 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

Again, this class is a power dps

Not with those numbers it isn't and the fact the only change going to the second beta is to nerf it to sub par levels means they don't want it as one as well.

 

57 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

If you were expecting a complete restyling of the class, it’s utterly obvious that it wasn’t happening.

Every other elite spec got massive changes. Look at how much they managed to get done for Untamed in a month while also doing Specter and Mechanist changes. Virtuoso had literally 3 times the length of time and got massive number nerfs and a QoL change.

 

Everything you said was wrong. Good job.

[Salt Mode.3780]

it just mind blows me like ranged premier ranged units like ranger and deadeye all have insane disengage abilities for them to u know ATTACK FROM RANGE, yet we have to get into mid range with a cast time to do a bit more damage? 

[Lumix.5069]

Me and my mesmer mind when i try to figure out if Virtuoso could be a good spec: 

 

[zealex.9410]

9 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

The number is irrelevant, it will always be throttled by the cooldown on phantasms and clone generation weaponskills. 5 would not be an issue if the cd on phantasms and sword 3 and dagger were lower to generate more blades.

 

But Anet does not make cohesive changes.

 

Instead it wastes time trying to make condition Virtuoso a thing when Mirage was already the condition spec and Virtuoso should have been the dedicated power spec. An entire row of traits wasted on a gimmick.

Pushing condi virtuoso just to say they have condi virt is just bad design, esp ehen the gsmeplay doesnt change and the traits are boring because of it.

[Zoser.7245]

Developers are experts in listen what they want to...  and only what they want.  Also experts in ruining things.

I loved the Harbinger...  Look at it now.  They ruined it even before release the specialization.  Now i'm going to completely ignore it like with the Virtuoso.  In fact, i don't like the new specializations at this time. The only one that i'll test is the Untamed that, with the new update, it should work ok now.  But i'm pretty sure that i will continue playing Renegade mainly unless things change before the release date.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[Obtena.7952]

Anet could drop all the hints in the world and even go so far as to flat out tell people what they intend with the spec ... and still people will ignore that.

Go here: 

Go to 52:06

Listen carefully

Re-align your expectations for Virtuoso 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

29 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Anet could drop all the hints in the world and even go so far as to flat out tell people what they intend with the spec ... and still people will ignore that.

Go here: 

Go to 52:06

Listen carefully

Re-align your expectations for Virtuoso 

"Its definitely a dps character of some kind... its just going to be a damage dealer"

That is why it does kitten all damage in PvP and they just nerfed it to support spec levels of dps in PvE.

 

"Its going to be more shatter orientated" 

That is why its shatter damage is lower then core, requires you to build more resources to shatter, shatters are now worse then core in every other way and its only shatter trait is a minor damage increase after shattering.

 

kittening hell Obtena, Anet could come into your house, kitten all over the furniture in front of you and then point at your dog and tell you he did it and you would believe them.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Shatter oriented, dps. Ahahahah

This kitten is worse than core by a mile. 

CMC is either clueless or lies on purpose. 

[Obtena.7952]

34 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

"Its definitely a dps character of some kind... its just going to be a damage dealer"

That is why it does kitten all damage in PvP and they just nerfed it to support spec levels of dps in PvE.

Well, you heard what you wanted to hear I guess. I didn't expect otherwise but now you can't say thinks that aren't aligned with what Anet wants Virtuoso to do.  I mean, nothing you are saying here is in contrast to what was said in the video ... you don't know how much DPS this does until you play it so the ideas you have abour support level PVE DPS ... that's just noise you make. Come back Tuesday when you have real data. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

I think all the changes that were made are absolutely on point

Do you really see an increase of bleed duration from 2s to 2.5s as a change "on point"? Even going full expertise/condition duration, you're not gonna get far with 5 seconds bleed on crit with a blade. You're likely to not even be able to keep up 5 bleed stacks with the blade songs with such bleed duration (and 5 bleed stacks are barely worth 1.4k dps with bloodsong, 25 vuln and 25 might).

Even duellist discipline give 3s bleed on crit... Wait... isn't it the same trait? Ah no it work on illusions but not on blades... Too bad...

[Levetty.1279]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, you heard what you wanted to hear I guess.

Direct quotes from the video.

 

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

you don't know how much DPS this does until you play it so the ideas you have abour support level PVE DPS ... that's just noise you make. Come back Tuesday when you have real data. 

Calculations have already been done. Crawl back into your hole you pathetic troll. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Calculations have already been done.

Calculations are meaningless. You have to play the game to see what you get. Maybe you think you can play the game in Excel. That's not how it works

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

Every time anybody ever wants to reply to Obtena again just remember he thinks 'maths are a lie'.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Every time anybody ever wants to reply to Obtena again just remember he thinks 'maths are a lie'.

No one is saying math is a lie except you. What I'm telling you is that what matters is what happens in the game, not on your calculator. If Anet wants this to be a DPS spec, it will be. This isn't release, it's beta.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No one is saying math is a lie except you. What I'm telling you is that what matters is what happens in the game, not on your calculator. If Anet wants this to be a DPS spec, it will be. This isn't release, it's beta.

Yeah not reading  a post from somebody who thinks math is a lie.