Thoughts on the Blight heal change

[Trepidation Lost.3469]

Personally I feel like the reduced movement and the fact that blight no longer heals outside shroud makes harbinger worse off now than it was during the first beta. (Wvw + pvp)

[LucianDK.8615]

Significantly cutting down on the promise of the Harbinger being 'mobile'

 

But its quite good to see elixirs interacting with blight

[Kodama.6453]

5 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Significantly cutting down on the promise of the Harbinger being 'mobile'

 

But its quite good to see elixirs interacting with blight

It's still significantly more mobile than other necro specs.

[Trepidation Lost.3469]

22 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's still significantly more mobile than other necro specs.

Is it thlugh? Reaper spamming 2 in shroud with the obligatory speed runes seems faster than this to me.

im more concerned about the squishiness now seing as blight doesn’t heal.

[Kodama.6453]

8 minutes ago, Trepidation Lost.3469 said:

Is it thlugh? Reaper spamming 2 in shroud with the obligatory speed runes seems faster than this to me.

im more concerned about the squishiness now seing as blight doesn’t heal.

Reaper has 1 dash with 600 range and 5 seconds cooldown.

Harbinger has 2 dashes with 600 range, one at 8 seconds and the other at 10 seconds cooldown. Which is better than having one dash on 5 seconds cooldown for mobility.

Speed runes are open for harbinger to use as well, so this is not any factor anyway.

And yes, harbinger will be squishy... as it was intended to be. It is supposed to be a glass cannon.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Lily.1935]

I hate that you can remove blight. I don't like the reduced movement either and I hate that they didn't address the concern I had of it not having access to utility in shroud. Overall, they didn't address anything I had an issue with and stripped a play style I had wanted for 9 years away.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

From a pvper perceptive, I knew Harbinger is going to be garbage for pvp, but everyone is telling me. "You're an idiot, the sustain it has is amazing, and you have tons of mobility options, you just bad at the game." To those people, Well. Well. Well. It looks like I was right after all, now it's going to feel FAR more apparent that Harbringer in pvp will Never compete, because the heals you have are gone, and the reduce Mobility will screw you over. But hey, They reduce your blight now, from 50% to 37.% And they let you have the ability to REMOVE blight. That's cool, while I am being rooted, and push around like a rag doll the VERY moment I use shroud, because I have no cc break, no any defensive utility beside some evade, no sustain, no Purge, NOTHING! Shroud isn't even protecting any necromancer anymore, so may god help you if people begin to focus on you. I said that shroud will be a death sentence in pvp before, and now it's more evident than ever. People are just going to save their cc the VERY moment you use shroud. They won't even give you a chance to do anything with shroud, because you have no way to cc break WHILE in shroud.

So yeah, to the people who thought that Harbinger will be fine for pvp. Where's your excuse now?

[Trepidation Lost.3469]

8 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

I hate that you can remove blight. I don't like the reduced movement either and I hate that they didn't address the concern I had of it not having access to utility in shroud. Overall, they didn't address anything I had an issue with and stripped a play style I had wanted for 9 years away.

Yep, same boat here.

I only cared for the harbinger and spectre and they’ve nerfed both to a point where I’d rather have not bought the expac and stuck with my HoT characters -_-

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I think the overall design of the Harbinger is better now that Blight has some direct meaning with the kit.  Of course, now, the size of your life force pool is completely irrelevant to the Harbinger as nothing cares about your total, just percentage.

 

Removing survivability from a spec that will inherently be glassy as hell leaves a lot to be desired.  Sure, 25 stacks of Blight isn't *as* bad, but now the spec has less mobility, no out-of-shroud regeneration, and no Vigor (aside from Elite).  The heal skill was godawful to begin with, and now I'm not 100% certain that it's any better.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[Wintermute.5408]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's still significantly more mobile than other necro specs.

Debatable. I mean, 2 leaps is definitely more than 1, but that's hardly "mobile" either.

As for autoregen, I'm glad it's gone. It was  braindead uninteractive mechanic that spent lifeforce out of my control.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Lily.1935]

1 hour ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

I think the overall design of the Harbinger is better now that Blight has some direct meaning with the kit.  Of course, now, the size of your life force pool is completely irrelevant to the Harbinger as nothing cares about your total, just percentage.

 

Removing survivability from a spec that will inherently be glassy as hell leaves a lot to be desired.  Sure, 25 stacks of Blight isn't *as* bad, but now the spec has less mobility, no out-of-shroud regeneration, and no Vigor (aside from Elite).  The heal skill was godawful to begin with, and now I'm not 100% certain that it's any better.

A mechanic that was designed as a risk but now has less risk now and rewards you for removing the risk factor is bad design.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

6 minutes ago, Lily.1935 said:

A mechanic that was designed as a risk but now has less risk now and rewards you for removing the risk factor is bad design.

I disagree, as before it was just a drawback with no benefit.  Now, there's a risk related to letting it build for the payoffs.  There's actually a reason to let it build up some in Shroud (elixirs won't build blight unless you drop them at your feet) rather than dip into shroud for a couple quick skills and drop out because there's no reason to stay longer.

[Lily.1935]

21 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

I disagree, as before it was just a drawback with no benefit.  Now, there's a risk related to letting it build for the payoffs.  There's actually a reason to let it build up some in Shroud (elixirs won't build blight unless you drop them at your feet) rather than dip into shroud for a couple quick skills and drop out because there's no reason to stay longer.

If blight was a positive mechanic, I'd be inclined to agree with you. However, it is not. The cost of building blight is the low health. With the ability to remove that and then gain massive benefits for doing so is incentivizing players to take far fewer risks. 

 

Blight should just have the 1% damage to it for each stack as its passive benefit. You shouldn't be able to remove it and elixirs should be more powerful when you have higher blight. But you absolutely SHOULD NOT be able to remove it! That's the risk you take for power. Now where is the risk? I have smaller health for a few seconds? That's no more a risk than rooting myself in place for a second or lowering my shield for a second to strike.

 

And it strips away the fantasy of the spec. Like if you've played Bloodborne or Ender Lily, corruption doesn't just go away and it seems that blight is trying to replicate this idea. There isn't supposed to be an easy cure. Its supposed to be deadly. 

 

I absolutely HATE the new direction for this and it murders a play style I've been waiting for for 9 years!

Edited November 25, 2021 by Lily.1935

[Arannya.8324]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Reaper has 1 dash with 600 range and 5 seconds cooldown.

Harbinger has 2 dashes with 600 range, one at 8 seconds and the other at 10 seconds cooldown. Which is better than having one dash on 5 seconds cooldown for mobility.

 

Yes on paper that sounds about right. However, reaper can close to perma chill enemies  so if you look at it from this angle it actually changes the perspective radically. There is nothing stopping enemies from kitting or chasing you on HB, very little access to snares. 
I also believe the new update is hugely disappointing, the passive heal out of shroud was the major plus for HB and the 600 range nerf feels truly unnecessary. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Arannya.8324

[Shroud.2307]

I don't like these changes because I'm already anticipating that damage will be too high which will mean nerfs down the road. It's going to end up like Berserker where it has multiple trade offs for very little gain. It's going to end up being a core Necro without the sponge and Reaper equivalent damage. 
Meaning, if you want to play something glassy and ranged, play core. If you want to play something glassy and melee, play Reaper. Because Harbinger won't offer anything the other two don't and using it will be at the expense of your durability.

The previous mechanics weren't good either because it was far more rewarding to play passively over being aggressive, and Shroud was better left unused (very much like Warrior many years ago when it was better to NOT spend your Adrenaline).

I'm not sure what needs to be done with it, but I don't think these changes are right either.

I just really hate the Blight mechanic...
I'd be fine with it if you gained proportionate damage based on health lost, eg. you lose 50% health? You gain 50% damage. But then it'd just be flat out busted. So I really think it's just not a good mechanic in general. The entire spec both how it was before and how it is now is literally just run away and play hyper defensive while you Blight stack yourself until you can hopefully 1 round burst someone. Basically making the strategy of the entire spec the same as Fresh Air Weaver, lol.

[Arheundel.6451]

12 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

From a pvper perceptive, I knew Harbinger is going to be garbage for pvp, but everyone is telling me. "You're an idiot, the sustain it has is amazing, and you have tons of mobility options, you just bad at the game." To those people, Well. Well. Well. It looks like I was right after all, now it's going to feel FAR more apparent that Harbringer in pvp will Never compete, because the heals you have are gone, and the reduce Mobility will screw you over. But hey, They reduce your blight now, from 50% to 37.% And they let you have the ability to REMOVE blight. That's cool, while I am being rooted, and push around like a rag doll the VERY moment I use shroud, because I have no cc break, no any defensive utility beside some evade, no sustain, no Purge, NOTHING! Shroud isn't even protecting any necromancer anymore, so may god help you if people begin to focus on you. I said that shroud will be a death sentence in pvp before, and now it's more evident than ever. People are just going to save their cc the VERY moment you use shroud. They won't even give you a chance to do anything with shroud, because you have no way to cc break WHILE in shroud.

So yeah, to the people who thought that Harbinger will be fine for pvp. Where's your excuse now?

Harbinger will bring back the concept of risk=reward to a class which enjoyed a risk free life for the last 5 years thanks to scourge and core necro, I predict many FOTM necros will have to start training on that dodge mechanic they ignored for so long. Between the CC and 2 movement skills + dodges and bountiful boon application, the Harbinger won't lack on defensive rotations....ofc the gameplay will be much much harder than simply press F1 and tank dmg like you can currently do on core necro and even barrier spam scourge minionmancer

Edited November 25, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Wintermute.5408]

8 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

Blight should just have the 1% damage to it for each stack as its passive benefit. You shouldn't be able to remove it and elixirs should be more powerful when you have higher blight. But you absolutely SHOULD NOT be able to remove it! That's the risk you take for power. Now where is the risk? I have smaller health for a few seconds? That's no more a risk than rooting myself in place for a second or lowering my shield for a second to strike.

I was under impression that you still keep the blight if you throw your elixirs on top of you. So if you want to maintain your damage buffs and exceeds - that's the way you go. Having potential to cleanse adds a level of skill though, to actively manage your damage and "survivability" both ways. It's a good change for what was a passive non-mechanic on first beta round.

[ovenglove.9528]

Unless I am mistaken Harbinger is now the class with the least sustain in the game. Well at least in pvp, pve wise tormenting runes and parasitic contagion and it is fine. I am not sure where it will fit in pvp, before the sustain from the healing made it work in duels, and in team fights. Now maybe it will need to be a roamer? Not sure the burst and movements skills are enough. I will try it out and try and not pre judge it too much, I could be wrong.

[Arannya.8324]

1 hour ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

ofc the gameplay will be much much harder than simply press F1 and tank dmg like you can currently do on core necro and even barrier spam scourge minionmancer

Nobody expects easy play, that is not the point here. The "glass cannon - no defence" approach (literally null defence in this case) makes little sense because in the case of necro there isn't a readily accessible combo that can one shot, it's mostly buildable or dependant on life force. Every other one shot class has minimum access to some form of defence, be it stealth, block, invul and so on. Personally, I have been playing power reaper only since its launch, I don't endorse passive play builds, and while reaper does crazy good dmg it's always down to landing a combo (like cc in rs4) and even that has some form of sustain... There's no gunflame, death's judgement and so on that could justify this literal null defence trade off.

[Obtena.7952]

I'm not specifically disappointed about the passive heal removal but what's more disappointing is that the changes funnel players into a specific and more complex way to play. With Harbringer Beta 1 version, you at least had the option to play rather passively with minimal shroud use and good balance of DPS and sustain ... always a good starting point for the average player. That option is now gone and basically, you're just playing a double balancing act with Blight/HP AND  DPS/game mechanics. Scrubs need not apply ... and GL to all you competitive players as well. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Esorono.1039]

5 minutes ago, Arannya.8324 said:

Nobody expects easy play, that is not the point here. The "glass cannon - no defence" approach (literally null defence in this case) makes little sense because in the case of necro there isn't a readily accessible combo that can one shot, it's mostly buildable or dependant on life force. Every other one shot class has minimum access to some form of defence, be it stealth, block, invul and so on. Personally, I have been playing power reaper only since its launch, I don't endorse passive play builds, and while reaper does crazy good dmg it's always down to landing a combo (like cc in rs4) and even that has some form of sustain... There's no gunflame, death's judgement and so on that could justify this literal null defence trade off.

To add on to this, Necromancer as a base doesn't have many ways to avoid damage like other professions, which have a good handful of options like using invulnerability frames, aegis, evades, reflects, barrier, and such. Necromancer doesn't have these options because it has shroud, so necromancers have absurdly high health instead, which is why 'focus the necromancer' is typically what you do in PvP because they have no way to really stop themselves from being pressured like that except to have a spectral cord away from the fight and/or a worm. Harbinger shares this weakness, but not only removes the shroud defense mechanic, but also lowers its HP down to something similar to Elementalists while still wearing cloth. But Harbingers don't also have their healing, blocks, evades, invulnerability, and hard CC. This is mostly a PvP, Fractal, and Soloing problem, and it might be just okay in Raids but that is a really small percentage of the game for an E-Spec just to be okay in. Especially as your quickness condi Harbinger is competing with quickness condi FB for the same role, and I feel we know which one we would rather have in a party more.

[Wintermute.5408]

The thing with regen, it was completely meaningless survivability tool on a class with ele levels of health. And don't forget glorious 4k health in frailty fractals. You can't regenerate when you're oneshot. Hopefully, with blight change there will be slightly less of that. I still suspect HB needs more defense in its kit, but regen was not useful.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Arannya.8324 said:

Nobody expects easy play, that is not the point here. The "glass cannon - no defence" approach (literally null defence in this case) makes little sense because in the case of necro there isn't a readily accessible combo that can one shot, it's mostly buildable or dependant on life force. Every other one shot class has minimum access to some form of defence, be it stealth, block, invul and so on. Personally, I have been playing power reaper only since its launch, I don't endorse passive play builds, and while reaper does crazy good dmg it's always down to landing a combo (like cc in rs4) and even that has some form of sustain... There's no gunflame, death's judgement and so on that could justify this literal null defence trade off.

I suspect the devs are finally considering the numbers of players playing what in game, from one side you have the players stating that necro hasn't got access to sustain tools like other professions...say elementalist, but then in game you see a single ele being played out of 20 players, where at least 10 of those players will be necro.

Something does not add up, either the devs are lying  with the numbers or the players themselves are exagerating the weaknesses of the class, I bet my money on the latter.

First of all, it would be time to water down this talk of blocks and invulnerabilities like they are given on a 5s CD and lasting for long periods of time. Skills like obsidian flesh are on a 60s CD and last few secs , other block skills like arcane shield are on a 45s CD and merely block 3 attacks, finally Mist form is on a 75s CD so......there is that, that would more than explain the abundance of necros compared to those classes with blocks, invulnerabilities etc etc etc.

If ele with his "blocks and invulnerability" is so good....why are you all playing necro and not ele atm?

The point is, if necromancer was anywhere close to be as fragile as people on the forum make it to be...we wouldn't have so many of them and surely it wouldn't be a FOTM class so.....

Edited November 25, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Arannya.8324]

10 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I suspect the devs are finally considering the numbers of players playing what in game, from one side you have the players stating that necro hasn't got access to sustain tools like other professions...say elementalist, but then in game you see a single ele being played out of 20 players, where at least 10 of those players will be necro.

Something does not add up, either the devs are lying  with the numbers or the players themselves are exagerating the weaknesses of the class, I bet my money on the latter.

First of all, it would be time to water down this talk of blocks and invulnerabilities like they are given on a 5s CD and lasting for long periods of time. Skills like obsidian flesh are on a 60s CD and last few secs , other block skills like arcane shield are on a 45s CD and merely block 3 attacks, finally Mist form is on a 75s CD so......there is that, that would more than explain the abundance of necros compared to those classes with blocks, invulnerabilities etc etc etc.

If ele with his "blocks and invulnerability" is so good....why are you all playing necro and not ele atm?

The point is, if necromancer was anywhere close to be as fragile as people on the forum make it to be...we wouldn't have so many of them and surely it wouldn't be a FOTM class so.....

Sorry you lost me there, I never said anything about ele "being so good with it's blocks and invul" I just pointed out that the HB mechanic with absolute zero sustain makes no sense due to the disproportion between readily available burst skills that can 1 shot and the complete lack of defence. I feel like you are mixing pots too, there will be more necro players especially in wvw of course because scourge is still meta for raids and will probably remain meta. If you really insist on giving ele as an example, FA ele can 1 shot but in the same time it has invul, block, port I mean the point is fairly obvious. This isn't about "this class is better than that class" like you are trying to make it, it's just the mechanic is flawed in balancing the risk and reward that's  all. And I play necro because I love the class, been playing necro since 2006 and will continue to do so, I don't go for "sure win" and again that's not the point of this topic. 

[Bale.3851]

Well my feedback (PVP Point of view):

 

Is this some kind of joke? You take a class designed to face tank give them 2 mobility skills and sustain through lifeforce but rip them of their 2nd health bar AND give them a debuff to reduce their health (plus also their sustain likewise). Then reduce the debuff by 25% which also leaves the class as kittened as before BUT in return u nerf the mobility AND simply delete the sustain. With zero compensation! LOOOOOL

 

This is such a joke! Cant even call this class design... i mean how in the world will this class ever life in pvp. Like zero chance u get away from a thief/ war / ranger etc. with 2 600 m jumps and no dmg mitigation. All there is right now is simply a 100% chance to die against every other class...I mean there are zero gains to play this specc in PVP and PVE. Harbringer and Core Necro both are much better at everything except mobility. And even Reaper has nearly the mobility Harbringer now has but with much less sacrafices. Like how can u think this is a good idea...

 

My suggestion:

Put the Sustain heal back in there....Harbringer is weak 2 burst this way but good in sutain. There is a clear weakness which can be used to outplay it. But the specc itself works (atleast better then with these changes). For real cant say im excited for EoD with this kind of game design. You just delete harbringer for the whole PVP community....