Guardian leaves no room for Catalyst or Harbinger.

[Linnael.1069]

Nobody cares about half the incoming elite specs because Guardian has been allowed to be so OP for so long. 
Harbinger and Catalyst are obviously designed to fit into a DPS+Quickness role in PvE. But nobody will ever play these classes because of Guardian.

Guard does Quickness + DPS + Aegis + Stability. It does 4 roles in one: why should we ever care about new specs that can only do 2?

How come nobody else is allowed to give decent amounts aegis or stability? Why should these critically important boons be reserved for Guardian only? But guardian is even allowed to have alacrity  now even though that doesn't fit its theme at all?

[Avatara.1042]

Yep.  Guardians dominate all facts of the game.

[Antycypator.9874]

5 hours ago, Linnael.1069 said:

But nobody will ever play these classes because of Guardian.

That's wrong, because META is not "you must play it" thing. Why would I reject my necro or ele only to play guardian, which I don't like?

The only thing I fear, is group content dominated by guardians. Many players will mindlesly copy builds and team comps from certain websites, only because one group of players did a 29s boss kill in fractals.

[Zenith.7301]

Ridiculous that they went and gave guardians alacrity. The class can now do every single boon support in the game while having an absolute monopoly on Aegis+Stability+Resolution for the group.

 

But it's fairly obvious they do not care about organized group PvE when doing class balancing. PvE is an afterthought, they just design primarily for PvP gimmicks.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Avatara.1042]

2 hours ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

That's wrong, because META is not "you must play it" thing. Why would I reject my necro or ele only to play guardian, which I don't like?

The only thing I fear, is group content dominated by guardians. Many players will mindlesly copy builds and team comps from certain websites, only because one group of players did a 29s boss kill in fractals.

You not liking something does not magically make everything fine.  The game needs to be balanced properly.

[Joxer.6024]

2 hours ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

That's wrong, because META is not "you must play it" thing. Why would I reject my necro or ele only to play guardian, which I don't like?

The only thing I fear, is group content dominated by guardians. Many players will mindlesly copy builds and team comps from certain websites, only because one group of players did a 29s boss kill in fractals.

and then suck playing it....

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

9 hours ago, Linnael.1069 said:

Nobody cares about half the incoming elite specs because Guardian has been allowed to be so OP for so long. 
Harbinger and Catalyst are obviously designed to fit into a DPS+Quickness role in PvE. But nobody will ever play these classes because of Guardian.

Guard does Quickness + DPS + Aegis + Stability. It does 4 roles in one: why should we ever care about new specs that can only do 2?

How come nobody else is allowed to give decent amounts aegis or stability? Why should these critically important boons be reserved for Guardian only? But guardian is even allowed to have alacrity  now even though that doesn't fit its theme at all?

That's very bold of you to assume that Catalyst had any kind of idea for design right there.

[Obtena.7952]

12 hours ago, Avatara.1042 said:

You not liking something does not magically make everything fine.  The game needs to be balanced properly.

Actually, this game is proof that it's balance is fine ... because meta has dominated instanced content for people that want optimal play and want to play optimally for the entirety of this game's existence ...

... AND still allowed people to play non-meta builds with good results during that time as well. 

So basically, it is balanced properly ... because people can play how they want and you can't 'balance' meta out of existence in the first place. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

Here's the issue. 

If they nerf guardian the problem stays the exact same in a different order. 

You can't remove meta from the game, one will always be chosen over the others regardless, this isn't a fixable issue. 

Your never gonna see a level where someone takes any of the three in top performing groups. One will win even if it's by 0.5% they will win and that word will spread and people will follow it

[Dr Meta.3158]

This specific case is less of a balance issue and more of a playerbase issue. Arenanet are game developers. Not psychologists. They can't administer plans for the playerbase to act like decent humans and play the game for enjoyment as intended.

[Linnael.1069]

34 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Here's the issue. 

If they nerf guardian the problem stays the exact same in a different order. 

You can't remove meta from the game, one will always be chosen over the others regardless, this isn't a fixable issue. 

Your never gonna see a level where someone takes any of the three in top performing groups. One will win even if it's by 0.5% they will win and that word will spread and people will follow it

This would actually be great if it were true but it’s not. If you nerf guardian nobody else can do quickness/dps/aegis/stab all at once. There is no second best to fall back to, things would seriously change without aegis/stab spam. Guardian doesn’t do things a little better than other classes, that would be fine. It literally does more functions, some that are impossible for anyone else to even get close to.

[zealex.9410]

21 hours ago, Linnael.1069 said:

Nobody cares about half the incoming elite specs because Guardian has been allowed to be so OP for so long. 
Harbinger and Catalyst are obviously designed to fit into a DPS+Quickness role in PvE. But nobody will ever play these classes because of Guardian.

Guard does Quickness + DPS + Aegis + Stability. It does 4 roles in one: why should we ever care about new specs that can only do 2?

How come nobody else is allowed to give decent amounts aegis or stability? Why should these critically important boons be reserved for Guardian only? But guardian is even allowed to have alacrity  now even though that doesn't fit its theme at all?

Last time i checked it was fb who did quickness and boons and dragon hunter who did power dmg, now it will also be willbender who does alacroty and power dmg. Pugs dont ask for guardians they ask for elite specs and the problem isnt guardian but rather firebrand.

[Avatara.1042]

43 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, this game is proof that it's balance is fine ... because meta has dominated instanced content for people that want optimal play and want to play optimally for the entirety of this game's existence ...

... AND still allowed people to play non-meta builds with good results during that time as well. 

So basically, it is balanced properly ... because people can play how they want and you can't 'balance' meta out of existence in the first place. 

That makes absolutely no sense.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

That makes absolutely no sense.

Yet it's how the game has worked for 9 year so ... 🤷‍♂️

Key word ... it works, and that's not dependent on it making sense to you. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Avatara.1042]

1 minute ago, zealex.9410 said:

Last time i checked it was fb who did quickness and boons and dragon hunter who did power dmg, now it will also be willbender who does alacroty and power dmg. Pugs dont ask for guardians they ask for elite specs and the problem isnt guardian but rather firebrand.

You do know DH and FB are Guardian specialisations, right?

[zealex.9410]

1 minute ago, Avatara.1042 said:

You do know DH and FB are Guardian specialisations, right?

They are however mutually exclusive specialisation, an ele can now heal and support deal dmg and also give quickness through its 3 elite specs. When you bring a dh you dont get quickness or stab and aegis spam and when you bring fb you dont get good power burst or alscrity. It would be nore beneficial if ppl started looking at specs rather than overall classes.

[Obtena.7952]

38 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

They are however mutually exclusive specialisation, an ele can now heal and support deal dmg and also give quickness through its 3 elite specs. When you bring a dh you dont get quickness or stab and aegis spam and when you bring fb you dont get good power burst or alscrity. It would be nore beneficial if ppl started looking at specs rather than overall classes.

Not only useful but just plain honest as well. Everyone knows we can't swap specs in combat to access all the shareable boons a single class has access to. So for people to pretend all these classes are locked out because Guardian provides "it all" is just ignoring the practical limitations of swapping specs.  

The truth is that Harbinger wasn't going to compete for top meta boonsharing spots against any meta boonsharing class, so the complain by the OP doesn't make sense to begin with; Harbinger boons are 5 man and not perma, even with full boon duration. It's got nothing to do with Guardian being OP like the OP says. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

55 minutes ago, Linnael.1069 said:

This would actually be great if it were true but it’s not. If you nerf guardian nobody else can do quickness/dps/aegis/stab all at once. There is no second best to fall back to, things would seriously change without aegis/stab spam. Guardian doesn’t do things a little better than other classes, that would be fine. It literally does more functions, some that are impossible for anyone else to even get close to

but Harbingert does 45k DPS.... i mean its a Massive Lead realistically here so i dont think the DPS is a valid Statement.

While Firebrand defintly has offensive Support it defintly costs DPS for the firebrand to effectively provide it (not saying firebrand is balanced.. i've advocated several times i think firebrands DPS Should be nerfed)

Quickness Chrono offers Tank Role Compression, it offers Far more CC Support to the group and defintly also have its place.

but we could on paper make argument stowards Several points realistically.

For example.

Harbinger Makes Weaver obselete. 2 glass cannons yet one has More ranged ability and brings 7k DPS more then weaver.

Tank chrono makes all other tank options obselete. It compresses roles better then any other option.

Alacrity Renegade makes all alacrity options obselete. it 10 man v 5 man... And alacren just brings ALOT of damage while at it realistically.

Scourge / Scrapper almost removed the need for any strong Healer present due to the barrier generation being so high now.

I mean do we even need to go into Druid? it DOminates Meta wise compared to other healing options.

I mean the list realistically goes on.

the only proffession we dont see Lead the meta excelling at something is realistically Elementalist really, tempest offers the highest healing in the game. but its just not really needed unless your needing a Carry build in a Raid because people are dying too much realistically.

i think aegis and stab have always been a guardian thing.. now if we wanna talk Firebrand Balancing i think we'd agree at several points of this being a Monster in power creep realistically, It should of likely never had Quickness Accessible to it i to a extent would go as far as arguing for its removal.

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Avatara.1042]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yet it's how the game has worked for 9 year so ... 🤷‍♂️

I meant your interpretation makes no sense.

Also, just because something has been broken for a long time, does not mean it is fine.

[Avatara.1042]

Warriors and Elementalists seem to be absent.

[Avatara.1042]

1 hour ago, zealex.9410 said:

They are however mutually exclusive specialisation, an ele can now heal and support deal dmg and also give quickness through its 3 elite specs. When you bring a dh you dont get quickness or stab and aegis spam and when you bring fb you dont get good power burst or alscrity. It would be nore beneficial if ppl started looking at specs rather than overall classes.

There is absolutely no way the Catalyst is going to supply quickness with that rubbish ability, and what is this magical 'support' ele brings?

Tempest can heal, but it costs everything.

[Obtena.7952]

45 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

I meant your interpretation makes no sense.

Also, just because something has been broken for a long time, does not mean it is fine.

To you maybe. You making sense of an interpretation isn't a requirement for the game to work that way though. The fact is that the game allows people to play how they want, whether they want optimal playstyles or not. I know I'm not interpreting that wrong. 

Also, labeling something as 'broken' doesn't mean it needs to be fixed. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Avatara.1042]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

To you maybe. That doesn't change the fact that how the game works allows people to play how they want, whether they want optimal playstyles or not. 

Also, labeling something as 'broken' doesn't mean it needs to be fixed. 

'People can play how they want even if their profession/spec is much worse than guardian/revenant/necro' is not the great point you think it is...

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

'People can play how they want even if their profession/spec is much worse than guardian/revenant/necro' is not the great point you think it is...

It's got nothing to do with how 'great' I think it is. It's just true. I mean, argue it's a 'bad point' all you like ... but it's how the game has always worked and it's not going to change because Anet isn't going to redesign the whole game just attempt to make meta an irrelevant concept. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Avatara.1042]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's got nothing to do with how 'great' I think it is. It's just true. I mean, argue it's a 'bad point' all you like ... but it's how the game has always worked and it's not going to change because Anet isn't going to redesign the whole game just attempt to make meta an irrelevant concept. 

Why are you even posting in a balance thread if you think balancing the game is pointless?  You do not care abut making the professions more equal, so why are you here?