Guardian leaves no room for Catalyst or Harbinger.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Why are you even posting in a balance thread if you think balancing the game is pointless?  You do not care abut making the professions more equal, so why are you here?

No, I'm posting in  a balancing thread because it's already sufficiently balanced. You don't seem to understand that 'equalization' isn't a balance goal in the game to begin with. It's NEVER been. It's a fools errand to even try. That's why I'm trying to express to you. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[zealex.9410]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Not only useful but just plain honest as well. Everyone knows we can't swap specs in combat to access all the shareable boons a single class has access to. So for people to pretend all these classes are locked out because Guardian provides "it all" is just ignoring the practical limitations of swapping specs.  

The truth is that Harbinger wasn't going to compete for top meta boonsharing spots against any meta boonsharing class, so the complain by the OP doesn't make sense to begin with; Harbinger boons are 5 man and not perma, even with full boon duration. It's got nothing to do with Guardian being OP like the OP says. 

Tbf afaik all quickness stackers are 5 man so thats cool the problem however is that fb is the chrono of hot in todays gw2. By that i mean not only they fill the quickness role but they also have by and large monopoly on protection and aegis spam making the spec frankly ridiculous. 

I didnt think chrono needed monopoly on quickness alacrity and invuln share and i sont think fb needs its monopoly on many boons either.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Tbf afaik all quickness stackers are 5 man so thats cool the problem however is that fb is the chrono of hot in todays gw2. By that i mean not only they fill the quickness role but they also have by and large monopoly on protection and aegis spam making the spec frankly ridiculous. 

I didnt think chrono needed monopoly on quickness alacrity and invuln share and i sont think fb needs its monopoly on many boons either.

My problem with this idea of 'boon spreading' to make classes 'equal' is that it doesn't fix the problem of 'sharing' meta spots between those classes anyways. The optimization problem isn't ONLY about one factor. 

The solution to engineer classes so they are all 'meta' (or at least more desirable) is about having unique offerings that people want, not sharing the wealth of already established meta classes. We already know that doesn't work (alacrity used to be a Chrono thing ... now it's not).

For example, only warrior has banners ... and what do you think gives warriors a meta spot? It's not their DPS or what boons they share ... it's the uniqueness of banners. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[zealex.9410]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

My problem with this idea of 'boon spreading' to make classes 'equal' is that it doesn't fix the problem of 'sharing' meta spots between those classes anyways. The optimization problem isn't ONLY about one factor. 

The solution to engineer classes so they are all 'meta' (or at least more desirable) is about having unique offerings that people want, not sharing the wealth of already established meta classes. We already know that doesn't work (alacrity used to be a Chrono thing ... now it's not).

For example, only warrior has banners ... and what do you think gives warriors a meta spot? It's not their DPS or what boons they share ... it's the uniqueness of banners. 

Its much easier to achieve good and balanced representation of classes through homogenisation but how good is that for the game is up to anyone's opinion. Rn imo scourge has monopoly over barier healing and firebrand has monopoly over protection and aegis.

 

You could have unique effects like spirits or banners or assassins presence etc a d those should be 10 man, but boon exclusivity is bad imo. If you want uniqueness make it class uniqueness and not spec uniqueness. Rn spammable aegis and prot spam is Fb uniqueness amd that incredibly unhealthy for the game.

Edited November 26, 2021 by zealex.9410

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Its much easier to achieve good and balanced representation of classes through homogenisation but how good is that for the game is up to anyone's opinion. Rn imo scourge has monopoly over barier healing and firebrand has monopoly over protection and aegis.

 

You could have unique effects like spirits or banners or assassins presence etc a d those should be 10 man, but boon exclusivity is bad imo. If you want uniqueness make it class uniqueness and not spec uniqueness.

Well ... it's not really opinion. We have MANY examples of Anet doing this with boons ... and it doesn't work. I mean, are we to assume that with clever application, Anet is going to trick people in not knowing what class is optimal for a given encounter? That somehow simple won't be able to figure it out what is optimal? I don't think so because it's been happening for 9 years. Boon distribution over classes just doesn't work as a way to spread meta spots over different classes. Even if two classes got the EXACT same boon sharing ability, people would STILL know what one to choose based on optimization of other factors. It simply makes no sense to think Anet can engineer a meta situation where everyone gets a share of spots with boon sharing ability.  

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[zealex.9410]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well ... it's not really opinion. We have MANY examples of Anet doing this, especially with boons ... and it doesn't work. 

Opening up quickness and alacrity on multiple classes worked, mirage is a good alternative to renegade and chrono and scrapper are decent quickness stackers.

What you ignore however is that one of the new quickness stackers has the exact same problem as hot chrono did and thats having monopoly over some powerful effect. I mean look at wvw, for wvw firebrand is what chrono was for pve during hot, its also a staple for pve because no one else brings these boons.

[Obtena.7952]

9 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Opening up quickness and alacrity on multiple classes worked, mirage is a good alternative to renegade and chrono and scrapper are decent quickness stackers.

What you ignore however is that one of the new quickness stackers has the exact same problem as hot chrono did and thats having monopoly over some powerful effect. I mean look at wvw, for wvw firebrand is what chrono was for pve during hot, its also a staple for pve because no one else brings these boons.

Being good alternatives does not mean meta though. It just means second place ... and no team looking for optimal is taking second place. Mirage is just OK in case you can't get a Renegade. I'm also certain that based on the encounter, Chrono and Scrapper won't be viewed as equal either. 

It's not a problem that the new Q stackers monopolize the same effect ... because it's not ONLY the effect that gets them a place in optimal teams. Again, the optimization problem is not JUST about one factor. We aren't going to pretend the meta for any specific encounter is just full of equivalent class alternatives and it's exceptional when a class doesn't fit into it.  

I mean, if we just want to dole out boon shares so we have more second, third, fourth place classes, sure, I don't have a problem with that ... but I'm 100% sure that's not what the OP of the thread is talking about as the problem they want fixed.  

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

For PvE I'd argue that Revenant is actually as good if not better than Guardian at providing Stability if needed.  Dwarf Road has no allied target limit, effectively making it 10man.  With a 7.5s CD with Alacrity and 30 energy cost the road is fairly spammable and can provide permanent stability uptime to an entire raid group.  With boon duration the Stab lasts for up to 6s as well, which allows for some added flexibility. 

Aegis however is definitely a problem.  Guardian having it is NOT the problem, but the lack of availability of the boon for support based classes (or other solid defensive buffs like barrier) IS the problem.  Chrono is the only good other source of it for a party and its ability to share it was neutered over the years (used to be Invuln share) which is one of the reasons Chrono isn't on par with or better than Guard anymore.  The other reason is that Chrono's healing is just not nearly as good as FB's.  Not giving Aegis (or other powerful defensive abilities) to other support options definitely limits class diversity as FB will always be sought after as long as it can nullify entire attacks with its boons.  Quickness Scrapper has failed to find a following in the community largely because of this.  I'm disappointed they decided to remove Spectre quickness as I was looking forward to having another solid, safe option alongside FB for quickness.

Edited November 26, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[zealex.9410]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Being good alternatives does not mean meta though. It just means second place ... and no team looking for optimal is taking second place. Mirage is just OK in case you can't get a Renegade. I'm also certain that based on the encounter, Chrono and Scrapper won't be viewed as equal either. 

It's not a problem that the new Q stackers monopolize the same effect ... because it's not ONLY the effect that gets them a place in optimal teams. Again, the optimization problem is not JUST about one factor. We aren't going to pretend the meta for any specific encounter is just full of equivalent class alternatives and it's exceptional when a class doesn't fit into it.  

I mean, if we just want to dole out boon shares so we have more second, third, fourth place classes, sure, I don't have a problem with that ... but I'm 100% sure that's not what the OP of the thread is talking about as the problem they want fixed.  

Idk i really do think the problem with quickness stackers rn is that fb has the boon monopoly, also you say that mirage i just ok but it does good dmg for the kitten it also brings easy 25 might and alacrity.

 

We have 3 specs that share quickness bit onpy one of them shares aegis and prot liberally. Who do you think ppl will pick. Ots hot chrono all over again but for diff boons this time.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Idk i really do think the problem with quickness stackers rn is that fb has the boon monopoly, also you say that mirage i just ok but it does good dmg for the kitten it also brings easy 25 might and alacrity.

 

We have 3 specs that share quickness bit onpy one of them shares aegis and prot liberally. Who do you think ppl will pick. Ots hot chrono all over again but for diff boons this time.

Who people will pick? Whatever they want based on what they believe is meta, no matter WHO has what abilities. Again, this thread isn't about some calculation the game does for players to tell them what classes to want in their teams. It's about their perception on what classes they want. 

Sure, maybe some more reasonable people realize that it doesn't really matter what class they take, as long as they get whatever boon they are looking for ... but that's not what the OP is talking about here. The OP's problem isn't some class pushing out other classes. It's the fact that many players have the PERCEPTION they have to take that ONE class to mitigate risk of failure.  

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[zealex.9410]

1 minute ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

For PvE I'd argue that Revenant is actually as good if not better than Guardian at providing Stability if needed.  Dwarf Road has no allied target limit, effectively making it 10man.  With a 7.5s CD with Alacrity and 30 energy cost the road is fairly spammable and can provide permanent stability uptime to an entire raid group.  With boon duration the Stab lasts for up to 6s as well, which allows for some added flexibility. 

Aegis however is definitely a problem.  Chrono is the only good other source of it for a party and its ability to share it was neutered over the years (used to be Invuln share) which is one of the reasons Chrono isn't on par with or better than Guard anymore.  The other reason is that Chrono's healing is just not nearly as good as FB's.  Not giving Aegis (or other powerful defensive abilities) to other support options definitely limits class diversity as FB will always be sought after as long as it can nullify entire attacks with its boons.  Quickness Scrapper has failed to find a following in the community largely because of this.  I'm disappointed they decided to remove Spectre quickness as I was looking forward to having another solid, safe option alongside FB for quickness.

Honestly they should remove aegis and open up prot to other specs. Invuln share was incredibly problematic in hot and aegis share spam is the same thing  now.

 

Fb doesnt need to heal give quickness aegis prot and a bunch of other utilities all together.

[zealex.9410]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Who people will pick? Whatever they want based on what they believe is meta, no matter WHO has what abilities. Again, this isn't about some calculation the game does for players and spits out to them. It's about their perception on what classes they want. 

Sure, maybe some more reasonable people realize that it doesn't really matter what class they take, as long as they get whatever boon they are looking for ... but that's not what the OP is talking about here. 

Its not about perception, fb has prot and aegis spam, the rest of the specs dont.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Its not about perception, fb has prot and aegis spam, the rest of the specs dont.

And there is no reason to believe if other classes had that, they would be on equal footing with FB in terms of what people want in their teams. Again, based on previous examples, there is good reason to believe that's NOT what would happen. Meta is NOT a broad collection of classes that provide certain desirable effects. 

it absolutely IS about perception, because we already know that we don't need to play meta to be successful in this game, yet for some reason, OP claims classes are pushed out because of another class. THAT is a perception problem. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[zealex.9410]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

And there is no reason to believe if other classes had that, they would be on equal footing with FB in terms of what people want in their teams. Meta is NOT a broad collection of classes that provide certain desirable effects. 

Meta might not be a broad collection but not allowing the meta to have monopoly over such powerful effects (or even have them at all in the case of aegis) is a very good way to bring whats meta and whats not closer.

The moment fb loses aegis and prot exclusivity the other options will become alot more apealing, like alacrity stackers became more apealimg the moment chrono lost exclusivity to that boon.

Edited November 26, 2021 by zealex.9410

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Meta might not be a broad collection but not allowing the meta to have monopoly over such powerful effects (or even have them at all in the case of aegis) is a very good way to bring whats meta and whats not closer.

Sure ... but that's not fixing the complaint of the OP because bringing something 'closer' is not what is causing classes to get pushed out by other classes. If something is pushed out, it's just because it's not part of of what people want as their primary choice. In their mind, you are either first, or irrelevant. 

Again, it's not a problem to allow more boons to be distributed, but don't pretend this opens up all these classes to sharing the spotlight with meta classes that share those same boons. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Honestly they should remove aegis and open up prot to other specs. Invuln share was incredibly problematic in hot and aegis share spam is the same thing  now.

 

Fb doesnt need to heal give quickness aegis prot and a bunch of other utilities all together.

I'd rather they not remove Aegis, but not just limit it extensively to one class.  Invuln share was problematic because it was too strong, but Aegis isn't nearly as strong as Invuln share was (still strong, don't get me wrong).  Chrono with slightly easier Aegis access and slightly better healing would be competitive with FB and I could easily see a Barrier Quickness Scrapper being competitive as well if it was allowed to be by Anet.  *Note i'm talking about the healing variants here, not the dps variants.  StM Chrono and Quick Scrapper only really need dps increases if they want to compete better with qCFB. 

I'm also not worried about FB giving Prot.  Plenty of other specs can already provide that for the raid group if necessary.  My only main concern is Aegis or other strong defensive options (i.e. Barrier) being provided to other supports.

[zealex.9410]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... but that's not fixing the complaint of the OP because bringing something 'closer' is not what is causing classes to get pushed out by other classes. 

The op complains that fb does too much compaired to the new alternatives, some of the stuff it does nobody else can do on top of that. Raining down on its power and boon exclusivity will give other specs room ro breathe.

I mean look at lfg, every day i see ppl ask for alac and dps but only hfb is asked by name, rene is never specified in the pugs when they ask for alacrity nor is a specific dps.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

The op complains that fb does too much compaired to the new alternatives, some of the stuff it does nobody else can do on top of that. Raining down on its power and boon exclusivity will give other specs room ro breathe.

OK and he does that because he wants more teams not playing FB ... but giving other specs 'room to breathe' doesn't make them meta, so they aren't going to compete with FB for spots in those teams even if they get FB exclusive boons unless the team doesn't find a FB. 

I mean, I get people telling me they prefer Renegade Alacrity all the time. It's 10 man, it's easy to share. Everything else is second rate. Players know what they want, whether it's logical or not. No one is going to tell a team looking for Aegis and Prot to take the second rate class when they can get FB. 

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[zealex.9410]

1 minute ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I'd rather they not remove Aegis, but not just limit it extensively to one class.  Invuln share was problematic because it was too strong, but Aegis isn't nearly as strong as Invuln share was (still strong, don't get me wrong).  Chrono with slightly easier Aegis access and slightly better healing would be competitive with FB and I could easily see a Barrier Quickness Scrapper being competitive as well if it was allowed to be by Anet.  *Note i'm talking about the healing variants here, not the dps variants.  StM Chrono and Quick Scrapper only really need dps increases if they want to compete better with qCFB. 

I'm also not worried about FB giving Prot.  Plenty of other specs can already provide that for the raid group if necessary.  My only main concern is Aegis or other strong defensive options (i.e. Barrier) being provided to other supports.

Sure aegis is not as powerful as distort share was but tbf distort share was tighter to pull off, by comparison aegis share is much more spammable.

For me its the principle of having such (easily) accessible effects nulify entire attacks, i dont think it was good back with chrono even tho it was harder and i certainly dont think its good now with fb. Tho i guess each to their own about that.

Hell to compensate they can then make it so the ally targeting of the boons isnt stupid.

[zealex.9410]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK and he does that because he wants more teams ... but giving other specs 'room to breathe' doesn't make them meta, so they aren't going to compete with FB based on distributing those boons unless the team doesn't find a FB. 

Hfb is taken because it is assumed on top of healing it will also provide aegis and prot. If other classes could compete with that it would be alot easier for pugs to forgo asking for one specific spec and instead ask from a pull of specs that provide these bonuses.

Edited November 26, 2021 by zealex.9410

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Hfb os taking because it is assumed on top of healing it will also provide aegis and prot. If other classes could compete with that it would be alot easier for pugs to forgo asking for one specific apec and instead as from a pull of specs that provide these bonuses.

That's my point though ... they AREN'T going to compete because there is no way for Anet to take class A and class B and make them equal since it takes more than equivalent boon sharing to make them equally optimal. 

I mean, honestly ... what would it take for ANY other class to compete with FB in terms of Aegis, Prot and it's healing? It would literally have to be a duplicate of FB. That's wishful thinking. It's a waste of Anet's effort (there is NO reason for this redundancy) It hasn't happened in 9 years. Why would it happen all the sudden now?

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[zealex.9410]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's my point though ... they AREN'T going to compete because there is no way for Anet to take class A and class B and make them equal since it takes more than equivalent boon sharing to make them equally optimal. 

I mean, honestly ... what would it take for ANY other class to compete with FB in terms of Aegis, Prot and it's healing? It would literally have to be a duplicate of FB. That's wishful thinking. It's a waste of Anet's effort (if you want to play what FB has ... guess what, you play FB) It hasn't happened in 9 years. Why would it happen all the sudden now?

If you wanted to play what chrono had you played chrono until that changed, if they bring firebrand in line the status quo will also change here.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

If you wanted to play what chrono had you played chrono until that changed, if they bring firebrand in line the status quo will also change here.

Yes, exactly ... the META changes. What doesn't happen is that we got all these meta builds between classes that people accept as equal. If they bring FB 'inline' there one of two things that can happen; it's either remains meta or it doesn't. If something else is meta, no problem has been fixed. It's simply a shift of what people want in their teams. If that happens, we just get some other thread like this one, complaining about some other class. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[zealex.9410]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes, exactly ... the META changed. What DIDN'T happen is that we got all these meta builds between classes that people accept as equal. If they bring FB 'inline' there are two things that happens; it's either meta or it's not. If something else is meta, no problem has been fixed. It's simply a shift of what people want in their teams. 

You give to much credit for meta in a game with soon to have like 27 elite specs and content that doesnt really need this lvl of optimisation. Ofc its up to the group to decide what they want to do but you can also see in other games where the designs are much more homogenous (lile ff14) how having a meta is quite meaningless.

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

You give to much credit for meta in a game with soon to have like 27 elite specs and content that doesnt really need this lvl of optimisation. Ofc its up to the group to decide what they want to do but you can also see in other games where the designs are much more homogenous (lile ff14) how having a meta is quite meaningless.

Well, how do you explain the existence of this thread then? If people wanting meta isn't worth the 'credit' you say it's being given, then this thread wouldn't exist right? I'm not the one complaining about meta builds pushing out classes I want to play. The OP is ... so maybe what you WANT to do here is tell the OP they are giving it too much credit for how it affects him, not me. 

Listen you can't say how the meta influences people's team choices is not very significant, then turn around and say it's significant enough that Anet needs to chase meta for some fool's errand to create meta-equivalent class choices. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952