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Guardian leaves no room for Catalyst or Harbinger.


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Nobody cares about half the incoming elite specs because Guardian has been allowed to be so OP for so long.  Harbinger and Catalyst are obviously designed to fit into a DPS+Quickness role in PvE. Bu

That's very bold of you to assume that Catalyst had any kind of idea for design right there.

Yep.  Guardians dominate all facts of the game.

11 hours ago, Avatara.1042 said:

I meant your interpretation makes no sense.

Also, just because something has been broken for a long time, does not mean it is fine.

My apologies, but seems like you need some informations about playerbase of GW2 here.
A lot of people if not majority have this weird belief of "if it's in the game, it means it's supposed/intended to work in that way" mentality, which leads to a lot of problematic and ridiculous designs that players find "acceptable", even though they're blatantly broken (evade on rangers aa GS is good example).
So if there's something released in very broken state, people take it as "granted" and consider it as a "base" for furher tweaks. If someone will dare to bring it down to acceptable level of gameplay, then the kittenstorm will arise defending it into oblivion or claiming that it was supposed to work this way and it's balanced or some other memes.

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32 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

My apologies, but seems like you need some informations about playerbase of GW2 here.
A lot of people if not majority have this weird belief of "if it's in the game, it means it's supposed/intended to work in that way" mentality, which leads to a lot of problematic and ridiculous designs that players find "acceptable", even though they're blatantly broken (evade on rangers aa GS is good example).
So if there's something released in very broken state, people take it as "granted" and consider it as a "base" for furher tweaks. If someone will dare to bring it down to acceptable level of gameplay, then the kittenstorm will arise defending it into oblivion or claiming that it was supposed to work this way and it's balanced or some other memes.

Except this isn't a skill on a weapon we are talking about ... it's the fact that the game has optimal solutions for a given encounter. That's not something Anet can fix without creating a whole new game. In fact, that's not even UNIQUE to GW2 instanced endgame content. It happens frequently in lots of games.  

So ACTUALLY what is happening here is simply acknowledging how things work in many multi-class MMOs.

Edited by Obtena.7952
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18 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Here's the issue. 

If they nerf guardian the problem stays the exact same in a different order. 

You can't remove meta from the game, one will always be chosen over the others regardless, this isn't a fixable issue. 

Your never gonna see a level where someone takes any of the three in top performing groups. One will win even if it's by 0.5% they will win and that word will spread and people will follow it

While true, they can also mitigate the issue easily through the proper tweaks. Example, if they wished to nerf Firebrand's damage through burning. We all know this is caused by Amplified Wrath in the Radiance traitline. It currently does 15% increased burning damage and 20% duration increase. They could drop the damage increase down to say...13%, resulting in a nerf to Firebrand's condi damage without exactly destroying anything else it has.

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1 hour ago, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

While true, they can also mitigate the issue easily through the proper tweaks. Example, if they wished to nerf Firebrand's damage through burning. We all know this is caused by Amplified Wrath in the Radiance traitline. It currently does 15% increased burning damage and 20% duration increase. They could drop the damage increase down to say...13%, resulting in a nerf to Firebrand's condi damage without exactly destroying anything else it has.

20% F1 Passive proc duration only.

 

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11 hours ago, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

While true, they can also mitigate the issue easily through the proper tweaks. Example, if they wished to nerf Firebrand's damage through burning. We all know this is caused by Amplified Wrath in the Radiance traitline. It currently does 15% increased burning damage and 20% duration increase. They could drop the damage increase down to say...13%, resulting in a nerf to Firebrand's condi damage without exactly destroying anything else it has.

Except it's not that simple because the optimal class for a team in instanced content isn't just a measure of what DPS it has and it's team boon sharing.

Also, it's not that logical a proposal because you are proposing a general nerf  just to enable equality for a very specific teaming situation. 

Besides, even if it is easy, then there must be SOME reason Anet isn't doing it. Probably because ... they don't need to because inequality isn't actually a problem except for people that insist on self-imposed restrictions of playing optimally. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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That's really not something you can easily fix. While Firebrand for example is indeed overperforming (and should imo be tuned down with longer Mantra Cooldowns and effects and maybe have to spec into one of the 3 Tomes via GM's rather than getting them all at once), it's just that Guardian is a well designed profession (in the context of GW2 of today), while many others are just not. 

 

Let's compare Firebrand and Harbinger as quickness providers.

First, let's look at the core they are built upon.

 

What can core Guardian add to a group?

You got perma AoE Fury, some Might, Regen, Resolution and Swiftness baked into weapon skills, you got a dedicated AoE Healing and Might stacking core weapon, great DPS (with both support for strike as well as condi baked into the Profession mechanic), fantastic CC, great Stability access, fantastic projectile Mitigation, another Might stacking option via Traits, AoE healing via Traits, AoE Protection, Aegis, Regen, AoE Pulls, Skips, AoE Condi cleanses, Vulnerability application, minor Quickness baseline - etc. 

 

It's a fantastic core with access to vast Utility, balanced in the fact that it can't do all of these things at once, but spec into them as need be. Anything build upon this core further specialising into just about anything will likely be pretty good unless horribly butchered. 

Anet doesn't even need to consciously favour Guardian or conspire it to be "their favoured child" with further specs, just the core 2012 design turned out to work really well in the boon centric game we have today. 

 

What can core Necro add to a group? 

Some Regen, decent CC, Vuln, AoE pull, minor projectile destruction, boon corruption, Ress utility in blood and minor Might and Cleansing. 

 

It's mostly a walking giant HP bar. Any spec build upon this core essentially needs a completely broken Specialisation mechanic to add much of value since the core design of 2012 intended for this profession didn't pan out at all (mind you, talking PvE, boon removal oddly enough is what eventually made Necro not just relevant but great in PvP formats due to being the only viable counter to the boon explosion). 

 

What does Firebrand add to Guardian?

Perma quickness, vastly more cleanses, more healing, more Stability, more reflects, more pulls, more DPS, more Might, more Regen, vastly more Aegis, unique healing modifiers, etc., all AoE. 

What is the tradeoff?

Minor lost Utility in instant cast Virtues. 

 

In short, pretty insane additions to a fantastic core with very little tradeoff, both in terms as spec mechanically, as well as in what it has to sacrifice within it's kit to provide these aspects at a time.

 

What does Harbinger add to Necromancer?

More DPS and Perma Quickness, as well as minor Fury, Swiftness, Might and Resolution uptime.

What is the tradeoff?

The entire and only defense the whole of Core Necro is designed around.

 

In short, a pretty lacklustre kit build upon a lacklustre and outdated core, which has to make massive sacrifices, both in terms of the specialisation mechanic, as well as within that to provide these aspects.

 

Are people really surprised these don't compete? 

Even if Necromancer had gotten the Firebrand tool kit, and Guardian the Harbinger tool kit, it would be a hard sell considering what their core design supports.

 

There is certainly room for Guardian (and as mentioned above, Firebrand) nerfs, but honestly unless the Profession is completely butchered - which it shouldn't be since it's well designed for the game that GW2 turned out to become - it's not going to fix the issue. 

Anet can't get around updating some of these other professions to work well within the game GW2 became over the years, rather than what they thought it would be in 2012 - either that, or they drastically need to rework the game back to Boons being minor effects though Boon scarcity, impossible perma uptimes and lower efficacy. 

Boons aren't minor additions you sometimes have anymore, they are the bread and butter of GW2. Guardian has boons. 

 

You can't have "Boon professions" and "no Boon professions" anymore, especially with the Elite Specialisation mechanic building upon these cores trying to enable new playstyles and niches. Just slapping Quickness on a Necro doesn't suddenly make it a boon support, at least not one comparing to Guardian - it never will with that core.

Edited by Asum.4960
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On 11/25/2021 at 9:56 AM, Zenith.7301 said:

Ridiculous that they went and gave guardians alacrity. The class can now do every single boon support in the game while having an absolute monopoly on Aegis+Stability+Resolution for the group.

 

But it's fairly obvious they do not care about organized group PvE when doing class balancing. PvE is an afterthought, they just design primarily for PvP gimmicks.

Haha if only - PvP is abandoned by anet. They do focus on PvE, the thing is probably the devs in power just really like guardian. I don’t see any other reason why they made it so broken

Edited by Mik.3401
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The way guardian is balanced there realty not much need for any other class in the game at all points of the game. Sadly its the most boring class in the game over all and the only way anet can get ppl to play it is to overload it with every effect in the game.

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On 11/26/2021 at 5:33 PM, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

While true, they can also mitigate the issue easily through the proper tweaks. Example, if they wished to nerf Firebrand's damage through burning. We all know this is caused by Amplified Wrath in the Radiance traitline. It currently does 15% increased burning damage and 20% duration increase. They could drop the damage increase down to say...13%, resulting in a nerf to Firebrand's condi damage without exactly destroying anything else it has.

Firebrand and scourge need reworking its mechanic is too overpowered to some how balance without just making the specc bad effectively. 

 

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2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Firebrand and scourge need reworking its mechanic is too overpowered to some how balance without just making the specc bad effectively. 

 

 

 

Not true. Remove the aoe aegis off mantra of solace and just make it heal allies. Reduce the DPS on firebrand slightly so it reflects its powerful utility.

 

Healbrand will still be OP because it can stack any boon but alacrity and bring reflects on top, but the fact is that he other support builds like heal tempest, heal renegade, and druid, and support scourge need better supportive boon access and group mitigation utility. Scourge can have its DPS toned down in favor of giving them actual boon access and healing, not just being garbage rez bots that can't serve as a primary support.

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5 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Notrue. Remove the aoe aegis off mantra of solace and just make it heal allies. Reduce the DPS on firebrand slightly so it reflects its powerful utility

They're never gonna nerf it's DPS because they seem to want firebrand to fill the Condi DPS option for guardian. 

Ontop of this u can still admit it will be overpowered I'm talking if you wanna remove it's overpowred status entirely. 

There's a argument that can be made to say firebrand most defintly should not be supplying quickness. 

 

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The argument, that every class should be meta might sound good on paper, but how are you going to achieve it? ANET stated, that they want every class to be like guardian. This is a big no no. If every class is powercreeped like guardian, then you might as well not play this game at all anymore (not to mention the horror to balance competitive modes). 

This doesnt change the fact that firebrands, scourges and renegades need to be tuned down. And yes, maybe other classes will fill the meta roles then. BUT: These classes will not be as ridicoulus as these three. Keep the state of the game in mind. If new specs take over the meta roles with less damage and less overall utility compressed into them, then thats good for overall balance. 

Edited by anbujackson.9564
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On 11/24/2021 at 9:23 PM, Linnael.1069 said:

Nobody cares about half the incoming elite specs because Guardian has been allowed to be so OP for so long. 
Harbinger and Catalyst are obviously designed to fit into a DPS+Quickness role in PvE. But nobody will ever play these classes because of Guardian.

Same can be said for specter vs renegade. This inner-class balancing design does not work. You need to balance around the game as a whole, ESPECIALLY for supports.

  

On 11/26/2021 at 12:33 PM, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

While true, they can also mitigate the issue easily through the proper tweaks. Example, if they wished to nerf Firebrand's damage through burning. We all know this is caused by Amplified Wrath in the Radiance traitline. It currently does 15% increased burning damage and 20% duration increase. They could drop the damage increase down to say...13%, resulting in a nerf to Firebrand's condi damage without exactly destroying anything else it has.

DPS nerfs are the LAST thing supports need. This game should not ever have cheerleader specs, it goes against it's entire design and combat system

Edited by Shiyo.3578
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5 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

DPS nerfs are the LAST thing supports need. This game should not ever have cheerleader specs, it goes against it's entire design and combat system


It's the only way they can add new specs without the entire system imploding on itself

People want perma quikcness/alacrity
People want new specs every expansion

The only way they get this is either design focused specs or colossal nerfs to the very idea of "support" that knocks us back to the vanilla GW2 stone age days when bringing a blast finisher for the fire field, pre-fight might stack huddle was considered "support"

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12 hours ago, Substance E.4852 said:


It's the only way they can add new specs without the entire system imploding on itself

People want perma quikcness/alacrity
People want new specs every expansion

The only way they get this is either design focused specs or colossal nerfs to the very idea of "support" that knocks us back to the vanilla GW2 stone age days when bringing a blast finisher for the fire field, pre-fight might stack huddle was considered "support"

Even with designed focus specs. It doesn't turn out the way it's suppose to. Look at scourge it was played off as a support. But the only thing supportive about it is barriers, which is laughable. 

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13 hours ago, Substance E.4852 said:


It's the only way they can add new specs without the entire system imploding on itself

People want perma quikcness/alacrity
People want new specs every expansion

The only way they get this is either design focused specs or colossal nerfs to the very idea of "support" that knocks us back to the vanilla GW2 stone age days when bringing a blast finisher for the fire field, pre-fight might stack huddle was considered "support"

I am still of the mind any thing that is perma from one class (one player for at least a group of 5) is badly balanced.

The game needs more amplifying classes to make the boons of other classes pema yet is unable to give out the boon by it self.

Guardian has too many boons types and they are far too high in duration for the class to every be balanced vs other classes. The healing and dps for all classes are over all bland and mostly balanced out for benchmarks in pve. Healing out put and dps for pve is not a reason for a class to be used at this point its the boons that give classes use any more. Its just some classes have more then others and guardian is the worst offender of having such boons.

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1 hour ago, NasTheBass.7349 said:

Even with designed focus specs. It doesn't turn out the way it's suppose to. Look at scourge it was played off as a support. But the only thing supportive about it is barriers, which is laughable. 

Condi removal boon corrupt and converting condis to might in aoe is really really good for pvp. Too bad they make sure scourge is extremely weak in pvp so it can't do its intended role.

Edited by Shiyo.3578
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Maybe Guardians dominated all game modes (wvw also) because someone in Developper's team forget about "thinking of the future" when creating Guards. Catalyst need STRONG downstate skills. Anet should give for Catalyst healing utility skill: "commit suicide" to finish fight faster. Catalyst is still a joke - not funny one.   

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