The two ends of the GW2 skill spectrum

[Swagg.9236]

"Low End" - Strictly rock-paper-scissors; this skill level is where players engage with aggression and PvP interactions effectively resolve themselves by virtue of which builds are fielded. 

Hard counters are the overbearing fulcrum for decision-making across all PvP encounters within GW2, and the "low skill player" will generally be unaware of them or actively disregard them (for whatever reason--and occasionally with success by slipping in for a burst when a target has no cooldowns).

"High End" - Wherein the "meta" builds start to assert clear control over the gameplay paradigm.

Normally a metagame's mere existence is not an issue, however, GW2's PvP "metagame" is generally very homogenized across all classes.  While every class may indeed have at least one (or sometimes two) "viable" builds within the "high level" scope of play, each of these respective builds--regardless of class--generally utilize the same sort of idealized playstyle flowchart:  (1) poke passively, (2) burst while passively mitigating incoming damage and effects, (3) spend defensive cooldowns while waiting for burst to recharge, (4) burst again (or escape).  In the case of "support" builds, it is generally a solitaire-style PvE rotation interrupted mainly only to either leave a fight or to revive a downed ally.  Considering the rules of engagement are essentially identical and all builds are generally balanced by cooldowns rather than resources (either something universal like "activation time" or something more esoteric such as an in-game limiter resource), the rule of thumb for victory often boils down to being the second player to begin a substantial skill rotation.  The more passive that one can play, the better one's position generally remains (due to having extra cooldowns on tap).

The reason why people have so many grievances with GW2's PvP is generally because it fosters two very strict states of being:  one is either aggression towards all opponents:  effectively gambling outright (all agency is actively lost in the face of hard counters); or one is a cowardly vulture (all agency is lost prior to the match's outset; in an environment of mirror matches, it's best to find the easiest fight to win--2v1s or catching someone with low cooldowns--or simply avoid conflict entirely in order to find free circles while waiting for a "good" fight to appear).  This is to say, one is entirely free to try to play GW2 with a sense of "aggressive playmaking" or "creative experimentation," however this will ultimately hit a roadblock of very passive, reactive builds which use rotations to effortlessly undermine an attacker's timing, positioning and effort.  Therefore, if one wishes to "compete" with the best builds and players, that person will inevitably have to behave very passively and reactively as well--abandoning agency and aggression for the mentality of a scavenging opportunist.  Most importantly of all, these two skill levels are not separated by any sort of dramatic chasm of skill or insight.  The skill spectrum of GW2 isn't so much a range than it is a light switch.  The step between "novice" and "skilled" GW2 PvP'er is mostly achieved by the willingness to fit one's self into the metagame and play the way the patch notes tell someone to play.  This is not to say that GW2 has absolutely no skill curve, but when so much of a match can be boiled down to (1) run the best comp to hard-counter or mirror an opposing team and (2) look at the minimap to find the easiest fights and open capture points, the appeal of pushing one's self to "great heights" hits a plateau rather quickly.

tl;dr:  You're only allowed to be a gambler or a vulture in GW2 PvP.  There isn't an in-between.  Indeed, the average person is probably too skilled for GW2, which is the real reason why one might find it so frustrating to play at times; and also why anyone who seeks to levy criticisms against the game's apparent lack of a holistic design philosophy are generally rebuffed with insults, anecdotes and biased comparisons rather than counterpoints.  If you're seeking self expression through player agency, Tyria is not the place.

[saerni.2584]

I'd agree with some of what you wrote. For me, the people who I'd classify as "skilled" tend to be those who are better at reading a fight and pressing an advantage. Basically, running down the cool downs of opponents while retaining more of their own. 
 

That group can be divided into (1) those who use a rotation where they are always are using some type of cooldown but always have one in queue and (2) those who save their cooldowns and only use skills when needed. Both types use kiting to reposition and thereby retain the advantage in a fight.

 

Your so-called low-skilled players use their build more-so to win encounters. That isn't always actually a low-skill environment so much as a lower interaction environment where an "unskilled" player knows they can force cooldowns without reading the opponent as much (which is more tiresome and many people just want to have fun). Of course, this doesn't work as well on "skilled" players so there is a bit of a light switch moment like you said.

 

A lot of what you said though is more about map rotations and less about players actively fighting players. That's not just sPvP and you'd find a similar "3v1" default in WvW as well. But I don't think that's too much of an issue as this isn't a 1v1 game and taking an outnumbered fight is usually on the person being outnumbered. Most players taking these kinds of fights probably imagine they are better mechanically than they are. And so that's why we might see most discussions revolving around "don't solo rush mid 1v3" because that's what loses more games than any actual true mechanical lack of skill (or light switch between skilled vs non-skilled). 

[Genesis.5169]

You just explained the dichotomy of a RPG. This game is working as intended in most places this is a MMORPG let me emphasize the RPG part where as people need to have imbalances to give diversity this is not an Fighter there should be inherit imbalance to give your Role Playing Game a Role to play in said game. This complaint is not a good one. Skill ceilings and floors exist in every game this games ceiling is much higher due to how combat works thats your real issue and you dont even know it.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

10 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

You just explained the dichotomy of a RPG. This game is working as intended in most places this is a MMORPG let me emphasize the RPG part where as people need to have imbalances to give diversity this is not an Fighter there should be inherit imbalance to give your Role Playing Game a Role to play in said game. This complaint is not a good one. Skill ceilings and floors exist in every game this games ceiling is much higher due to how combat works thats your real issue and you dont even know it.

That is the point really. This is how most RPG’s tend to be, and “working as intended” means it follows a curriculum of design philosophies that are not really that different from the other run of the mill mmos…thus it indeed shows a lack of diversity.

 

when we talk about diversity and what makes things different, there really is a spectrum for that.

 

imagine you are watching films…you got Deep Impact, Day After Tomorrow, San Andreas…You know that these movies are different…but they all follow the same story roughly speaking…they have the same qualities, tropes…
 

Compare this now to a movie containing nothing but 1.5 hours of white noise. You know that there is a clear difference between this film of noise and the three mentioned above. (And this also shows that it isn’t always necessarily a good thing)

 

the example here is meant to illustrate that GW2’s design is not very clever but rather generic…just as how movies like San Andres and Day After Tomorrow are roughly the same movie…but with different characters…locations…and dialogue.

 

Gw2 has the same “plot” as a-lot of other MMO’s and to change that requires a real hardcore thinking in how to change their design philosophy to not have such a generic “plot” so to speak.

Edited November 30, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Genesis.5169]

24 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

That is the point really. This is how most RPG’s tend to be, and “working as intended” means it follows a curriculum of design philosophies that are not really that different from the other run of the mill mmos…thus it indeed shows a lack of diversity.

 

when we talk about diversity and what makes things different, there really is a spectrum for that.

 

imagine you are watching films…you got Deep Impact, Day After Tomorrow, San Andreas…You know that these movies are different…but they all follow the same story roughly speaking…they have the same qualities, tropes…
 

Compare this now to a movie containing nothing but 1.5 hours of white noise. You know that there is a clear difference between this film of noise and the three mentioned above. (And this also shows that it isn’t always necessarily a good thing)

 

the example here is meant to illustrate that GW2’s design is not very clever but rather generic…just as how movies like San Andres and Day After Tomorrow are roughly the same movie…but with different characters…locations…and dialogue.

 

Gw2 has the same “plot” as a-lot of other MMO’s and to change that requires a real hardcore thinking in how to change their design philosophy to not have such a generic “plot” so to speak.

You do know this is the pvp section right?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

11 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

You do know this is the pvp section right?

If you don’t understand the example and how the language is being used to describe the design paradigm of gaming, there’s really no point in going any further.
 

“plot” in quotations is referring to the paradigm for how games follow a design curriculum. Just as two different movies can have the same plot, so can two games follow different design structures to get the same player behavior. 
 

the point of this post is that the GW2 with its design, shows the same player behavior as other mmos. Therefor what is so different from playing this game to say playing World of Warcraft or whatever…they all inspire the same style of gameplay.

Edited November 30, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Shagie.7612]

On 11/28/2021 at 1:14 AM, Swagg.9236 said:

Indeed, the average person is probably too skilled for GW2

lol this cant be a serious post

[ASP.8093]

SPvP is a team game.

The most efficient style is for some team members to be creating opportunities for others to exploit. This isn't "passive," it's cooperative. You put some of your collective resources into creating pressure, you see how the other team responds, you then must decide whether you keep chasing that investment or refocus on something else. And they have to make choices like how to apply support, how to counter-pressure, and when to rotate out of a fight (and how to cover an ally's exit), as well.

And there's also the whole map-management aspect where you're balancing resources across multiple theaters of operation.

[Creativity.3816]

 "Swaggggggg" lol

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the low end isn't about builds its about players. a good player on berserker will destroy most players in silver but once they climb to where ever the drop off is meta builds start to shine.

[Morwath.9817]

19 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

SPvP is a team game.

The most efficient style is for some team members to be creating opportunities for others to exploit. This isn't "passive," it's cooperative. You put some of your collective resources into creating pressure, you see how the other team responds, you then must decide whether you keep chasing that investment or refocus on something else. And they have to make choices like how to apply support, how to counter-pressure, and when to rotate out of a fight (and how to cover an ally's exit), as well.

And there's also the whole map-management aspect where you're balancing resources across multiple theaters of operation.

 

Indeed, we often see "player feeding" totaly ignoring hes forcing himself into long 1v2/3 far away, so his team can play 4v3/2 on rest of map.