Petition requesting the return of the second dodge for the mirage in all game modes !

[Daniel Handler.4816]

38 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Yeah totally forgot mesmers are always on sword, silly me. And that's not to say that kitten is bugged since release and bugs out every time. Oh and the distance of thrust is affected by impairing conditions. 

Do you people even know how to read? Distance travel of a regular dodge is superior to distance travel of mirage cloak, and I'm counting only moving forward, because "dodge back or sideways" is non existant. 

You can twist and turn all you want, facts are facts. Mirage cloak does have trade-offs in itself. 

 

You aren't always on sword. But you are when you need to be, and if not you have other options like jaunt and blink.

I dont know what "you people" is supposed to mean. But there is no twisting and turning. You don't need the second dodge.

If you absolutely must bunker then run inspiration and/or chaos.  And you'll see a second dodge is completely unnecessary.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Yoci.2481]

Now apply that logic to Daredevil...

[Daniel Handler.4816]

5 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

Now apply that logic to Daredevil...

Because dd is extremely limited on the amount of stuff it can do during a dodge. 

And it isnt one dodge vs three. It's mirage cloak/shatters/jaunt/mirrors vs three modified dodges/steal/dagger storm. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Because dd is extremely limited on the amount of stuff it can do during a dodge. 

And it isnt one dodge vs three. It's mirage cloak/shatters/jaunt/mirrors vs three modified dodges/steal/dagger storm. 

shatters dont get affected by dodging it has always been the same including being CCed u can always shatter into distortion with IP.

the only thing our dodge benefits is avoid damage while being CC anything else mentioned is irrelevant. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

12 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

You aren't always on sword. But you are when you need to be, and if not you have other options like jaunt and blink.

I dont know what "you people" is supposed to mean. But there is no twisting and turning. You don't need the second dodge.

If you absolutely must bunker then run inspiration and/or chaos.  And you'll see a second dodge is completely unnecessary.

You need the second dodge.

Again mirage is one of the specs with the least amount of vigor. And mirrors are garbage and have been since release. 

And once more by having just one dodge you're required to spam it on full endurance to not waste resources, so instead of dodging when you need to, you just spam. 

[Mell.4873]

Good some people are bringing some sense to this thread. Basically they will never return the 2nd dodge unless they massively buff other classes.

 

Mirage is fine as well, it has massive burst still and is still used in high gold where I am. I have used mirage in pvp but its to fast for me. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

13 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Good some people are bringing some sense to this thread. Basically they will never return the 2nd dodge unless they massively buff other classes.

 

Mirage is fine as well, it has massive burst still and is still used in high gold where I am. I have used mirage in pvp but its to fast for me. 

I ask you again the same question you avoided.

How many people played mirage in ATs since it is so OP?

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again this person already stated that they are no expert in PvP so whatever that person has to say literally has no real input to the matter.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You need the second dodge.

Again mirage is one of the specs with the least amount of vigor. And mirrors are garbage and have been since release. 

And once more by having just one dodge you're required to spam it on full endurance to not waste resources, so instead of dodging when you need to, you just spam. 

No we don't. People just need to get better at the game. But no one is required to do anything.

I get that people may feel they need two dodges. It's why build like this are so popular.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Celestial_Signet_Roamer for WVW

https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/mirage/condition-alacrity-mirage for PVE

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Blurring_Inspiration for PVP

You can make mistakes and the build will carry you. It's why we don't have two dodges in competitive modes.

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I ask you again the same question you avoided.

How many people played mirage in ATs since it is so OP?

Not overpowered, but it can be oppressive in the right hands. Giving it an extra dodge is not balanced and would just result in something else getting nerfed. 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_Carrion_Axe play this and learn how to interrupt. It will prepare you to transition into using virtuoso.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

7 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again this person already stated that they are no expert in PvP so whatever that person has to say literally has no real input to the matter.

And can you post an arc dps log on axe mirage and a capture of you in platinum 3 or above?

No need to be randomly hostile.

[Salt Mode.3780]

35 minutes ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

And can you post an arc dps log on axe mirage and a capture of you in platinum 3 or above?

No need to be randomly hostile.

Not talking about you i just didnt want to be specific. Besides sPvP isn't the only competitive game mode in fact solo roaming in WvW can be just as difficult if not more then sPvP due to more stats, runes, and sigils being avaliable. Which causes more builds to be made rather then the very few builds that is available in sPvP. There is a reason why that game mode is dying faster then the rest. 

Instead of balancing they remove stats, runes, sigils and call it a day. You tell me how competitive sPvP really is.

[desu.2514]

Return dodges to normal, make dodge no longer usable while stunned but mirage have 100 endurance again. Fixed. Ambush condi really isn’t remotely as oppressive as people say unless they run no cleanses. In which case the only way to balance for ppl who run no cleanse is remove condi from the game. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, desu.2514 said:

Return dodges to normal, make dodge no longer usable while stunned but mirage have 100 endurance again. Fixed. Ambush condi really isn’t remotely as oppressive as people say unless they run no cleanses. In which case the only way to balance for ppl who run no cleanse is remove condi from the game. 

and what will compensate the stationary dodge? 

[Suff.1539]

I used to love playing mirage in sPvP and WvW. I took a 1-2yr break from GW2 because of this very issue with the change in the number of dodges from 2 to 1. There obviously were a variety of other reasons for the break... that change was just the tipping point. I'm really enjoying the game again though, however the transition from PvE to competitive on Mirage still feels horrible because of the change in the number of available dodges. It just plays bad after coming from PvE where you have access to both dodge slots. You get used to having that extra dodge available like every other profession and it's a very noticeable nerf when removed. More than enough to keep players away from the competitive game modes.

 

I understand the need to balance things so it's not too strong, but this was not and hasn't been a good solution. I would have much rather seen the dmg numbers come down than have this dodge removed. I'm not coming at this from a balance perspective as much as an actual gameplay perspective. I think almost everyone is ok with bringing damage numbers down on certain skills and traits in competitive modes, but when the actual class no longer performs or feels the same to the player... that's a problem. With the expansion coming out soon it's the perfect time to revisit a lot of these balance issues. I know emphasis will be on the new shiny elite specs, but hopefully someone working on these classes will have time to revisit this and see if there's anything they can do to make it play and feel better.

[Daishi.6027]

Power mirage never over performed and was never oppressive, even before jaunt nerfs, even before evasive mirror nerfs, even before mirage cloak duration nerf. Condi mirage only thrived so strongly because of the nature of condis, and that condi illusions added so much momentum and pressure regardless of ambush or not something that was never a luxury Power had yet it had all the other abilities. This is proof mirage, with all it's defensive mechanics intact; was fine and fair.

The comparison between DD and the "amount of options during evade" is ridiculous. Mesmer outside of shatters, phantasms, and auto attack do not do substantial damage and it's all majorly disconnected between the time of button input before landing, and most of it is cleavable or manipulatable AI... Outside of the GS combo that: Requires you to be melee with a ranged weapon often requiring your blink, be optimal distance to manipulate bounces, precast-ed (often using a 2 - 3 second window stealth), and blow practically the entire bar plus your shatter to do the equivalent of a thief. And through all this if even 1 part of it is avoided, or unproperly spaced you do next to nothing.. Without the ability to teleport away/ hide into stealth/ or spam evades until you can try again or escape.

For at least power mirage, where majority of your skills and attacks are not quick on demand damage (compare the disconnected nature of Phantasmal berserker, and a 3 clone mind wrack, to something like Pistolwhip or heartseeker, or the frequency of getting to re-attempt backstabs); Then you start to notice that on demand evasion, even if "limited" is still substantial damage, momentum, and pressure And is far FARRRR more powerful than what mirage is doing.

And I don't want to hear crap about mirage mirrors; they are literally giant "I have to go over here to be able to do more DPS or Evade, and if I don't use it, I lose it." tells (that you can't even easily access with the nerfed jaunts), once again another luxury thief does not afford their opponents. And is garbage design anyways, only added because some artist thought it was fancy, and some simp dev added it to the class.

Mirage got nerfed because of the nature of Condi in PvP after A-net being unable to properly balance it; What we have now is a cut up and glued puzzle piece barely designed to fit. As such condi now is balanced and does it's role. But it is now a clunky mess and destroyed any other way to play. Sure some people screw around with power, but excelling with a handicap doesn't matter when the handicap shouldn't exist. (And it's moot anyways, it can't even 1v1 reliably and exits to +1 fights, which thief does better- and faster.)

"PeOpLe JuSt NeEd To GeT bEtTeR aT tHe GaMe." That's a pretty haughty take when other classes are the ones not overcoming an artificially imposed in-built handicap. There was a time around... season 11? 10? 8? 9? (I forgot) Where people made the argument that the only way Condi Mirage would lose was if it made a mistake; Let's say that's true - As it is now this is the nature of Power Mirage except in reverse towards every other class. Seems fair.

Oh But Virtuoso if you want to play power 🙄 Ya cuz that's working out... 

Kitteny Kitty-Kat you A-net; Don't buy end of dragons.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[rune.9572]

Wow, a lot of salt in this thread.

 

Power mirage is a gimmick build, just dodge once and it dies to sneeze. 👀

 

Anyway, it's not like reverting the dodge change would make mirage viable in competitive again. Condi is useless in the current cleansing meta and again, power mirage is a meme everyone knows how to counter.

[Daishi.6027]

9 minutes ago, rune.9572 said:

Anyway, it's not like reverting the dodge change would make mirage viable in competitive again. Condi is useless in the current cleansing meta and again, power mirage is a meme everyone knows how to counter.

Ya well it was at least a fun meme that had the resources to live a bit longer. Can't even have that anymore.

Once they fix the evade we can kitten about the other stuff Mirage needs.

(Though I'd frankly just do a revert back to season 9, maybe keep some of the newer trait changes [that are actually completely new], and only thing nerfed being Elusive Mirror, and Mirage cloak duration in relation to power*)

Edited December 3, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[rune.9572]

^^^ mirage can chain i-frames for some 8-16 seconds depending on encounter conditions and player skill so I don't see any issues. And it's just i-frames, I'm not even talking about blocks or stealth.

I can literally *walk out of* a full wvw blob full bombing me without any preparation, given a proper build.

 

To me it seems like people complaining are just bad at knowing core mesmer trait interactions, which is THE thing that makes the class.

Anyway, virtuoso is going to be the top of all gamemodes a week after release, screenshot this.

Edited December 3, 2021 by rune.9572

[Leonidrex.5649]

17 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

And can you post an arc dps log on axe mirage and a capture of you in platinum 3 or above?

No need to be randomly hostile.

I ran some logs on axe mirage in plat 2, and it made me quit the class.
The fact that my top damage was made by burning from torch made me realize how dog kitten the class is

[phokus.8934]

I asked BenP about bringing the dodge back to Mirage during a tpot stream and he said being able to dodge while cc'd is not the gameplay they want.

Unless they change MC to where you can't dodge while cc'd Mirage will not see two dodges back.

[Mell.4873]

On 12/2/2021 at 9:58 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I ask you again the same question you avoided.

How many people played mirage in ATs since it is so OP?

It doesn't mater they have never mentioned bringing it back since they removed it, no mater how many times (including me) it gets brought up.

The obviously know something we don't. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Then fine dont return the 2 dodge for us but revert all nerfs that was because of the 2 dodges. Again nerfed cuz condi mirage dodge too strong, then nerf everything that isnt the source of the reason, then finally removing the source of reason while having everything else nerfed without the source of reason.

A+ work devs A+ work indeed.

[Daishi.6027]

16 hours ago, rune.9572 said:

^^^ mirage can chain i-frames for some 8-16 seconds depending on encounter conditions and player skill so I don't see any issues. And it's just i-frames, I'm not even talking about blocks or stealth.

I can literally *walk out of* a full wvw blob full bombing me without any preparation, given a proper build.

Sorry, but a "window of invulnerability" is ALWAYS going to be far more inferior to "on demand" evasion ESPECIALLY in a competitive setting, not to mention the calculation of all defensive options including blocks, aegis, etc  between condi mirage and DD was run around season 9/10 when everyone was arguing about condi mirage, and DD STILL had more uptime over I think it was a 3 min window, and that didn't even calculate blinds... AND only mirage got nerfed in this area since then. But, for argument's sake let's say we even take your situation as a standard that is something not situationally effective:

You only really pull this off with blurred inscriptions, and this perpetuates the double standard to other classes who only need to take one line to do one thing effectively. Power Mirage/power core(/lol power chrono) in almost all cases needs two lines just to do effective damage, even Condi Mirage in sPvP generally wants Chaos or Dom over Insp. WvW in particular is carried by PvE stats like trailblazer or the inflated cele that offer a bit more wiggle room; but even then Power STILL needs two lines.

This is inferior to something like ranger's Wilderness Survival which offers them all the defense they need to sustain in one package, irrespective of gear, same with Alchemy for engie. Or Thief's Trickery line to give them all the initiative they need to out cooldown-sustain more than half the roster.

Moreover this locks you to signet usage... Which for a class that creates illusions is a giant "btw this is me!" sign, which A-net and the balance discord seem to want to pretend is as effective as thief stealth when balancing, lol. Also you lose out on access to things like Portal- Literally the only reason why mes was (increasingly rarely) picked instead thief prior to HoT, mantra of distraction, or fun things like Illusionary Ambush.

It's a pretty conceited take to dismiss the rest of the game just because your build does fine with PvE stats and chopping it up to a skill or knowledge issue when it seems like you are not even considering a ton of context. Ya, sure; it's all meme builds and borderline useless ect, ect. But the point is it doesn't NEED to be that way, and frankly I'd rather Blurred inscriptions get nerfed than literally the core design of the elite spec.

Also without big changes, that even the new ones CMC himself admitted are likely not enough... Virtuoso isn't doing anything in sPvP, so I don't know where this "All game modes" idea you have is, but an argument could maybe be made for a specific role WvW particularly GvG; and I'm still pressing a massive X to doubt.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Daishi.6027

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 12/1/2021 at 2:04 PM, Zraurum.8493 said:

Let's take a look at what has been nerfed lately.
Сhaos vortex, reduced damage up to damage from auto attack.
Reduced the number of summoned clones, staff 3, scepter 2.
Reduced the Torment time of illusions.
Chaotic Interruption an absolutely meaningless skill. (used to give quickness when interrupt)
Reduced illusion defense to 2%.
Evasive Mirror increased cooldown.
Decreased time mirage cloak.
Removed one jaunt.
Damage from the axe was simply cut by 30%.
And after such nerfs, they also took away dodge! Don't you think this is overkill ?

dont forget
1 dodge mirage
Removal of F3 stun
removal of danger time from chrono
Mantra changes, both removal of charge, increasing cooldown, reducing damage AND adding LoS thingy
AT still bugged
Chaos storm rng change
Mirage cloak no longer gives superspeed ( now flat movespeed bonus, so chill/cripple screws you over big time )
axe 3/illu ambush no longer detarget
pistol 5 stun duration reduction
Revival trait nerf to 1%

[desu.2514]

dont forget mistrust (a vastly underrated trait, especially in wvw or team fights)

and CI was great trait, gain boons, and apply debilitating condis on interrupt. new CI is useless

Edited December 4, 2021 by desu.2514