Is Jade Tech only 8 years old?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Randulf.7614 said:

What is Taimi’s most recent in game claim?

TL;DR

Taimi is suddenly calling into doubt the DSD's very existence and says that the in-universe claims of it being in the Unending Ocean depths is unfounded speculation.

 

Which is weird given she had direct study of The All via Omadd's Machine, which the Commander also went into (and recently revisited via Return To events), and two dialogues ago from the same Return To stuff, Taimi and the Commander were talking about the DSD with no question of its existence.

[Randulf.7614]

Right, yes not sure why she is questioning it either then based on the above quoted dialogue given Omadd’s Machine. Does make me wonder how these things slip through when it is all supposedly a culmination of everything we know so far and planned far ahead.

[Faridah.8431]

4 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Right, yes not sure why she is questioning it either then based on the above quoted dialogue given Omadd’s Machine. Does make me wonder how these things slip through when it is all supposedly a culmination of everything we know so far and planned far ahead.

Lack of continuity in the writing it feels like.

This is a very strange angle to take now given Omadd's Machine.

Quote

Gorrik: And if there is another Elder Dragon-

Taimi: Which we don't know for sure-

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Faridah.8431

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Faridah.8431 said:

This is a very strange angle to take now given Omadd's Machine.

Not really.

Omadd's Machine was something that no one but Omadd truly understood how it worked. Not only that, but Taimi didn't see what we saw since we pulled her out, and got the full brunt of the effect in her place. Its not something you can take as evidence in a scientific manner.

There is a fundamental difference between "well you saw something in a machine we don't understand how it works, and has been known to drive people mad", and actually having concrete evidence of something's existence. No one has concrete proof the DSD's existence since no one has seen it, or gotten a confirmed sighting of its minions. There's just vague tales of something in the depths, and something attacking ships at sea.

Taimi is just taking the scientific stance of "we can't say something exists until we can prove it". Her own dialogue has her talking about the DSD as if she believes it exists, but also has her clarifying there is no empirical data for it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Current_Events

Quote

Taimi: The most popular theory is the water dragon's somewhere in the depths of the Unending Ocean.

Gorrik: Not exactly a narrow search range.

Taimi: It's a hypothesis with no empirical basis.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi#Eye_of_the_North

Quote

Player: Been thinking about another Elder Dragon. The remaining one.

Taimi: Understandable. Its existence has been the leading hypothesis in my models, but how have we not seen more of it by now? Zhaitan's death, Kralkatorrik's... Why isn't it active?

Player: I think it's only a matter of time.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragons:_Notes_from_the_Field

Quote

Scholars have long debated the possible existence of another Elder Dragon—one that may possess a degree of control over water and the oceans. Canthan and Elonian sailors have recounted tales of strange creatures heretofore unknown emerging from the oceans, possibly tied to this dragon's resurgence, but as of this writing, that folklore has yet to be empirically verified.

Even going back to the start of Icebrood Saga, the existence of the DSD was considered debated, with Taimi considering it to exist, but notating there was no empiric evidence for it.

This is just the difference between common speak, and scientific speak.

Even going back to LWS2 its existence was considered believed but not proven

Quote

Magister Ela Makkay: In conclusion, let's recap. The five confirmed dragons are Kralkatorrik, Jormag, Primordus, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan.

Magister Ela Makkay: We believe there is another deep in the oceans, but its entry in the Scroll of the Five True Gods is partially missing.

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

33 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Omadd's Machine was something that no one but Omadd truly understood how it worked. Not only that, but Taimi didn't see what we saw since we pulled her out, and got the full brunt of the effect in her place. Its not something you can take as evidence in a scientific manner.

There is a fundamental difference between "well you saw something in a machine we don't understand how it works, and has been known to drive people mad", and actually having concrete evidence of something's existence.

I'll probably regret even bothering with this but:

She went into the machine during Season 3, off-screen:

Taimi: The experiment was a success! And I'm having the heart of Omadd's machine delivered to Rata Novus.

Taimi: With it, I should be able to see the Eternal Alchemy and manipulate the dragons' energies to pit 'em against one another.

Taimi: Spencer's research is continuing to pay dividends!

<Character name>: I haven't had the best track record guiding members of this guild, so I'll say this as a word of caution: Scarlet.

If sylvari:

Taimi: Okay, A: I'm not a dragon minion—no offense.

Otherwise:

Taimi: Okay, A: I'm not a dragon minion.

Taimi: And B: The lives we'll save are worth the risk, and I think you might agree with that.

<Character name>: I do, just...be careful.

Taimi: What could go— You know what, it feels like I shouldn't say that. I bet a ton of stuff can go wrong. Bye!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eyes_on_Lake_Doric

So she should have seen The All herself, no need to take the Commander's account alone.

And that's not even going into all the other records and accounts that name six Elder Dragons - that range from the dwarven records and jotun records to the Apostate and the Six Gods. Tarir's challenges also reference a sixth Elder Dragon. Basically, everything and anything talking about the Elder Dragons beyond "those very directly and closely influencing Central Tyria in the past 200 years", refer to there being six.

33 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

No one has concrete proof the DSD's existence since no one has seen it, or gotten a confirmed sighting of its minions. There's just vague tales of something in the depths, and something attacking ships at sea.

Without even going into the circle of referencing the quaggan, hylek, and largos that actively talk about there being dragon influence in the Unending Ocean depths, there's the fact the Inquest got one of its minions, apparently. Zojja took records from the Infinite Coil Reactor aka Crucible of Eternity, and Taimi apparently investigated the place to. Just because we the players haven't seen such, doesn't mean Tyrians haven't.

It is indeed more than a little weird that she would go from showing no doubt in its existence, to suddenly questioning its existence simply because the tiny portion of the world Central Tyria is at hasn't interacted with it.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

She went into the machine during Season 3, off-screen:

So she should have seen The All herself, no need to take the Commander's account alone.

Please re-read what you posted after going back, and looking at the plot of the previous chapters in LWS3. Once again, you are claiming something happened that the dialogue you posted literally does not say.

1. The experiment she is referring to is her experiment with the chak organ, and the labs at Rata Novus, to pit various magics against each other.
2. As the dialogue states, she had the core of the machine taken out of the machine and brought to her. She did not go into the machine. If she had, she wouldn't have needed to have the core taken out, and brought to her, so she could use it to look at the Eternal Alchemy. She would have seen it when she went in it.
3. By taking the core out of the machine, any previous results we experienced from the machine while the core was still in it is unusable as evidence of what she saw after it had been taken out.
4. She only states she is going to use it to look at the eternal alchemy to see how to pit the magics against each other. She makes no mention of using it to view The All in its entirety.

So literally nothing you claimed actually happened by actually reading the dialogue posted, said dialogue being written in basic, plain, English.

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And that's not even going into all the other records and accounts that name six Elder Dragons - that range from the dwarven records and jotun records to the Apostate and the Six Gods. Tarir's challenges also reference a sixth Elder Dragon.

Without even going into the circle of referencing the quaggan, hylek, and largos that actively talk about there being dragon influence in the Unending Ocean depths, there's the fact the Inquest got one of its minions, apparently. Zojja took records from the Infinite Coil Reactor aka Crucible of Eternity, and Taimi apparently investigated the place to. Just because we the players haven't seen such, doesn't mean Tyrians haven't.

It is indeed more than a little weird that she would go from showing no doubt in its existence, to suddenly questioning its existence simply because the tiny portion of the world Central Tyria is at hasn't interacted with it.

None of which are scientifically verifiable evidence. Even the Durmand Priory, who have the Tome of the Five True Gods, the Jotun Records, the Dwarven records, and the Apostate's writings, state they believe there is a 6th, not that they know for a fact there is a 6th.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana

Quote

Magister Ela Makkay: In conclusion, let's recap. The five confirmed dragons are Kralkatorrik, Jormag, Primordus, Mordremoth, and Zhaitan.

Magister Ela Makkay: We believe there is another deep in the oceans, but its entry in the Scroll of the Five True Gods is partially missing.

And they say so then for the same reason Taimi says what she does now.

Literally none of that counts as empirical evidence. Its all hearsay until someone manages to drag the corpse of a DSD minion, or the dragon itself, to the surface to be directly observed and recorded.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Randulf.7614]

I wish I hadn’t asked. Lesson learnt with this subforum.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

18 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Please re-read what you posted after going back, and looking at the plot of the previous chapters in LWS3. Once again, you are claiming something happened that the dialogue you posted literally does not say.

Let me isolate the important part for you:

Taimi: With it, I should be able to see the Eternal Alchemy

And consider this: How did she create a fully accurate simulation of The All as the Commander saw it in Season 2, if she wasn't able to use the heart of Omadd's Machine to see the Eternal Alchemy?

18 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

None of which are scientifically verifiable evidence.

Yes, the physical minion the Inquest had captured is not verifiable. Gotcha.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Let me isolate the important part for you:

Taimi: With it, I should be able to see the Eternal Alchemy

And consider this: How did she create a fully accurate simulation of The All as the Commander saw it in Season 2, if she wasn't able to use the heart of Omadd's Machine to see the Eternal Alchemy?

A map of The All, and a basic description of its function, has been something people have had since before Taimi used the machine. The Durmand Priory has had it since they got the Apostate's texts. Even still, the Durmand Priory only believes it may exist, they don't treat it as a fact because they have no evidence for it. A picture of the All is not scientific evidence indicating the existence of a 6th Dragon.

Also the Dragons =/= Eternal Alchemy =/= The All. The Eternal Alchemy is a massive meta-universal construct detailing how everything in the universe fits together. The All is a construct depicting the existence/structure of Tyria. And the Elder Dragons are entities on Tyira who are currently tied to the All, and the balance of the world. But, as Glint's whole plan was built around, the dragons are not the All itself. They can be killed, replaced, substituted with other things. Hell, her plan was going to have Aurene and Vlast replace the 6 Elder Dragons, leaving the world with only 2 spheres, not 6.

You can understand the existence of the All, but still not have proof of a 6th Elder Dragons, because the dragons are not The All itself, just the current vessels for it. For all we know Bubbles died in the millennia between awakenings, and the current thing keeping the balance is Dragon Jade, or there was some other similar thing like the Bloodstones facilitating a similar purpose this whole time, and the 6th dragon never existed(unlikely but just a quick hypothetical)

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yes, the physical minion the Inquest had captured is not verifiable. Gotcha.

Which wasn't actually present at the Crucible of Eternity, no one ever actually saw, and we've never seen any actual data on. Let alone any data actually confirming its a dragon minion. We overheard one conversation that the Inquest had it, that's it.

But its good to know that if I dredged up some old texts from ancient times saying air was the primary thing that moved through veins, and got a random person to say it was true, you would believe it. Because that is literally the standard of evidence you are using right now. I would hope however the people of Tyria would use more rigorous, and more realistic, standards.

 

The major problem with these claims is the high likelihood of cross contamination between the various sources. We know the Jotun and Dwarves were ancient allies. So if one of them believed a 6th Elder Dragon existed, the other could have adopted that same idea regardless of if actual hard evidence showing its existence was given or not. The human gods got most of their knowledge about the Elder Dragons from these ancient races, doing little of their own investigations into the matter(Hell, they didn't even know they were building over one. The likelihood they had Abbadon swim around in the ocean to find Bubbles to confirm its existence is slim to none).  Similarly, the Apostate almost certainly got his information from Abbadon's knowledge, who got his information from the same sources. So if one of them was wrong, all of them were wrong. Which is why you don't just blindly accept ancient texts, even if several of them say the same thing.

Likewise the supposed DSD minion the Inquest had was never seen, and nothing regarding data about it has ever been obtained. And the various ocean races like the Krait, and Largos, have only mentioned they have been fighting monsters in the deep. None of them have actually confirmed its an Elder Dragon, or its minions. With the kind of fauna Tyria has naturally it can't be ruled out that it isn't a non Dragon source like the Karka.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[The Greyhawk.9107]

10 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I wish I hadn’t asked. Lesson learnt with this subforum.

I know the feeling all too well.  Frankly the Lore subforum is increasingly becoming a shadow of its former self, and the persistent quarrel as seen above has not been helping.

Edited December 9, 2021 by The Greyhawk.9107

[PseudoNewb.5468]

On 12/8/2021 at 12:11 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Let me isolate the important part for you:

Taimi: With it, I should be able to see the Eternal Alchemy

And consider this: How did she create a fully accurate simulation of The All as the Commander saw it in Season 2, if she wasn't able to use the heart of Omadd's Machine to see the Eternal Alchemy?

Taimi only say she 'should' be able to see into it, and I don't think she ever confirmed she was able to develop a full true representation of the All. She has simulations of the All, but they are simulations and she expresses doubt about it even when she shows. Not only that, but she is running the simulation after losing Omadd's machine. 

Quote

Taimi: Ugh, Phlunt and his nosy little puppets are picking this place clean! Okay...not sure how to even start this...

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...

Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?

Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

<Character name>: What's worse than being consumed by a dragon?

Taimi: Well, when Balthazar stole the machine, it got me thinking, so I ran a scenario in the simulation room.

Taimi: And... I should have done this before! This is all my fault! I was so exhausted!

Taimi: Keeping the lab secret, working all hours, I didn't... A— All the lives!

Taimi: I've doomed everyone! Probably? I don't know!

<Character name>: What are you getting at? What's going on?

<Character name>: Are—? Taimi?

Taimi: I'm here. There's a communicator dock near the submarine you arrived on. Plug into that and you'll see...

Which means she couldn't even cross reference her simulation parameters and re check her data against Omadd's machine. We really don't know how much data she pulled from it. And, with it stolen, she probably didn't get everything she expected to get from it.