Things I want to try with Virtuoso in Beta 4

[Flow.2947]

Despite all the negative themes for Virtuoso, I still think the class is a perfect thematic fit for Mesmer. I am still hyped and want to try things out.

Looking at the bug fixes, I now see some more synergies to try. Especially with traids that aren't used as often. 

 

Healing and Sustain 

Illusionary Inspiration certainly isn't much healing, but along with Eather Signet you get at least ~450 healing every 3 seconds with Infinite Forge. You ar not actively creating a blade there. 

I would actually like to see if there is a synergy using Sword 4 or Scepter 2 with Psyonic Reposete and storing 4 blades at once, if will also get healed for ~2000 hp?

 

Restorative illusions were not mentioned in the fixes and I hope this will be updated to 5 illusions/blades

 

The second one is with phantasms

 I will try a boon version of this with persistance of memory: Fury, Aegis, Power, Quickness, now additonally Regeneration triggering chaos lines. 

I'm also curious how strong Phantasm can hit. Because there is a strong synergy in domination, where you rip your opponent's boons with Shatter and cast a Phantasm on them. This gives the Phantasm a better chance to hit for the 15% increased damage.

I'm also excited to see if Blade renual activates all of your passives as well (Healing from your Signet, Illusionary Inspiration, Illusionary Defense, Inspiring Destruction, Compounding Power) preparing you to go!

 

Sice shatters are a "core mecanic" i will try focuse on this a bit more and combo skills like powerblock or signet of domination into it.
Especially with Psychic Riposte gives you an unblockable bladesong? you can guarantee at least a 20% boost from Shatter and if you time it right ~42%+ boost that is unblockable. Max Dmg modifyer for pvp and wvw is 84,5% for shatters if i am not wrong (in ideal condition). 

 

I can see an Expertise build

I'm still thinking about a power expertise build (works with Condi too xD). Becauseyou can have a 38% condiduration increase with no gear...  up to 6 seconds immob are possible. Its strong for any build i guess  and that's on a 25s cooldown at a 1200 range with a skill like mimic 12s, don't forget there are tons of coverconditions possible. I guess you should be able to hit your elite within this time. Side note 20s of vulnerablility with Rain of swords.

 

looking forward seeing what you want to try out.

 

 

[LucianDK.8615]

Good to see some positivity for once.

[Mik.3401]

Embarking to inspiration is the only way to use this kit so your reasoning is right. Your damage will be bad and you will be kind of like inspi mirage just without mirage cloak and random aegis instead.

Maybe it could work as tank in raids but still  chrono is better.

The devs stated the identity of this spec is to be a dps dealer so this is quite interesting.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Mik.3401

[OriOri.8724]

18 hours ago, Flow.2947 said:

Healing and Sustain 

Illusionary Inspiration certainly isn't much healing, but along with Eather Signet you get at least ~450 healing every 3 seconds with Infinite Forge. You ar not actively creating a blade there. 

I would actually like to see if there is a synergy using Sword 4 or Scepter 2 with Psyonic Reposete and storing 4 blades at once, if will also get healed for ~2000 hp?

Virtuoso is supposed to be a selfish DPS spec, as confirmed by the devs. There's nothing wrong with trying stuff out, but  the mere fact that a healing/sustain build is one of the first thoughts in terms of how virtuoso is designed and how it interacts with core mesmer should be a huge red flag to the devs that the design is extremely flawed

 

18 hours ago, Flow.2947 said:

Sice shatters are a "core mecanic" i will try focuse on this a bit more and combo skills like powerblock or signet of domination into it.
Especially with Psychic Riposte gives you an unblockable bladesong? you can guarantee at least a 20% boost from Shatter and if you time it right ~42%+ boost that is unblockable. Max Dmg modifyer for pvp and wvw is 84,5% for shatters if i am not wrong (in ideal condition). 

Psyhic riposte is dependent on the enemy taking a specific action. You can't activate it if you can't evade/block an attack. Even if it can be used for a spike, it needs to be rethought. Bladesongs need to be not projectiles by default, which already negates a lot of the need to have psychic riposte in its current form in the first place.

 

And bladesongs need other work too. Lower cast times, and faster travel time for the blades when you do cast it

[Flow.2947]

1 hour ago, OriOri.8724 said:

Virtuoso is supposed to be a selfish DPS spec, as confirmed by the devs. There's nothing wrong with trying stuff out, but  the mere fact that a healing/sustain build is one of the first thoughts in terms of how virtuoso is designed and how it interacts with core mesmer should be a huge red flag to the devs that the design is extremely flawed

 

Psyhic riposte is dependent on the enemy taking a specific action. You can't activate it if you can't evade/block an attack. Even if it can be used for a spike, it needs to be rethought. Bladesongs need to be not projectiles by default, which already negates a lot of the need to have psychic riposte in its current form in the first place.

 

And bladesongs need other work too. Lower cast times, and faster travel time for the blades when you do cast it

Well, I just saw the interview with cmc on Teapots channel; dps/shatter oriented class, but says notthing about selfish. CmC said it "the changes we made will not get us there yet..."

I think the class had so many bugs (core mechanics like shatter traids not working as they should) that I guess they decided to fix that first. After that, they can tweak the numbers and start bigger changes.

(I take the inspiration line most of the time because you have 3 out of 5 active core abilities in that line (mantras, illusions, sigils).Topic for its owne.

Don't you want to try a certain thing/rotation/build? Or do you already know how they work and synergize with each other? I mean, the text isn't too deep in this spec, but still.

 

 

[LucianDK.8615]

35 minutes ago, Flow.2947 said:

Well, I just saw the interview with cmc on Teapots channel; dps/shatter oriented class, but says notthing about selfish. CmC said it "the changes we made will not get us there yet..."

I think the class had so many bugs (core mechanics like shatter traids not working as they should) that I guess they decided to fix that first. After that, they can tweak the numbers and start bigger changes.

(I take the inspiration line most of the time because you have 3 out of 5 active core abilities in that line (mantras, illusions, sigils).Topic for its owne.

Don't you want to try a certain thing/rotation/build? Or do you already know how they work and synergize with each other? I mean, the text isn't too deep in this spec, but still.

 

 

Hopefully that means its still unfinished and have more changes lined up, that wasnt ready for beta4. But I am not going to place my bets on it.

[Levetty.1279]

44 minutes ago, Flow.2947 said:

"the changes we made will not get us there yet..."

That was purely about the unblockable trait.

 

We are going into the second beta, 3 months out from launch (one of which contains Christmas) and the spec still doesn't actually have a replacement for clones. Don't expect this spec to be anything but utter kitten. 

[Lethion.8745]

On 11/29/2021 at 10:49 PM, OriOri.8724 said:

Virtuoso is supposed to be a selfish DPS spec,

Would anyone really want that kind of thing in their party/squad tho

[Tayga.3192]

I tested my variant of the sustain build in pvp. As far as I understand, it's way worse vs a competent player but it does decently against relatively weaker players. 

[babak.3654]

On 11/30/2021 at 12:52 AM, LucianDK.8615 said:

Hopefully that means its still unfinished and have more changes lined up, that wasnt ready for beta4. But I am not going to place my bets on it.

It would be great if that were true but that’s where two-way feedback is really important. They could have said something along the lines “further changes are planned to address other feedback. Our priority for this beta was to fix a large number of bugs and the interaction of virtuoso and core Mesmer traits”. 

But they didn’t. And there’s a very small window to make further changes, which as far as I know we won’t get to test again. So reasonable to expect it not to happen.

 

 

[OriOri.8724]

17 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

Would anyone really want that kind of thing in their party/squad tho

Ask the devs, not me. I don't like the idea of it being selfish DPS. But that's what the devs have publicly stated they want it to be

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, OriOri.8724 said:

Ask the devs, not me. I don't like the idea of it being selfish DPS. But that's what the devs have publicly stated they want it to be

Then why did they gut the DPS?

[OriOri.8724]

11 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Then why did they gut the DPS?

Again, ask the devs. From the moment the first beta dropped I've been confused as hell about virtuoso, because the spec was not coherently designed. And then they ignored all our feedback in favor of giving us more blade generation, which isn't even useful if bladesong cooldowns aren't lowered anyway.

 

Seems like the most logical answer is there's no one on the design team that actually cares about mesmer anymore, and they just don't give it any thoughts whatsoever. Of all the new elite specs, this one had the least cohesive design, this one had no changes to the core f skills (and the change to the clone mechanic is tiny, and sloppily done imo), mesmer remains the only class to not get a 2H weapon in any elite spec so far, and they then ignored all of the feedback from mesmer players about what changes we'd like to see in the spec (no changes to bladesongs, no removing a half baked condi traitline on a power dps spec and replacing it with utility focused traits, no changes to dagger to make it actually usable at range, they kept the condi traitline in but didn't address the fact that no more clones means that staff and scepter lose a huge amount of their condi damage potential, no tools added to keep enemies at range (no mobility, no cripple/immob, nothing)).

 

There just isn't anyone left on the design team that cares about mesmers, so its given far and away the least amount of effort, and it shows

[Mik.3401]

40 minutes ago, OriOri.8724 said:

Again, ask the devs. From the moment the first beta dropped I've been confused as hell about virtuoso, because the spec was not coherently designed. And then they ignored all our feedback in favor of giving us more blade generation, which isn't even useful if bladesong cooldowns aren't lowered anyway.

 

Seems like the most logical answer is there's no one on the design team that actually cares about mesmer anymore, and they just don't give it any thoughts whatsoever. Of all the new elite specs, this one had the least cohesive design, this one had no changes to the core f skills (and the change to the clone mechanic is tiny, and sloppily done imo), mesmer remains the only class to not get a 2H weapon in any elite spec so far, and they then ignored all of the feedback from mesmer players about what changes we'd like to see in the spec (no changes to bladesongs, no removing a half baked condi traitline on a power dps spec and replacing it with utility focused traits, no changes to dagger to make it actually usable at range, they kept the condi traitline in but didn't address the fact that no more clones means that staff and scepter lose a huge amount of their condi damage potential, no tools added to keep enemies at range (no mobility, no cripple/immob, nothing)).

 

There just isn't anyone left on the design team that cares about mesmers, so its given far and away the least amount of effort, and it shows

That’s one thing, also something tells me they are struggling with low staff levels/resources. Like 1 or two people designed legendaries (gen 3 ) which all look the same. 
Then specs like virtuoso - it’s clear they know it’s bad but it is too late to amend the code etc.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

20 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

That’s one thing, also something tells me they are struggling with low staff levels/resources. Like 1 or two people designed legendaries (gen 3 ) which all look the same. 
Then specs like virtuoso - it’s clear they know it’s bad but it is too late to amend the code etc.

If I was at ANerf I would rather not release anything new than release something bad. 

By delaying the xpac they're working on their own future, by releasing half-assed kitten they're just putting nails in their own coffin, if the xpac is bad it will be the last one, NCsoft is tired of their BS. 

[Mik.3401]

11 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

If I was at ANerf I would rather not release anything new than release something bad. 

By delaying the xpac they're working on their own future, by releasing half-assed kitten they're just putting nails in their own coffin, if the xpac is bad it will be the last one, NCsoft is tired of their BS. 

And this is why I don’t see GW2 lasting beyond EoD given bad content like that is being implemented. The PvE metas and the strike missions they will release with the expansion would need to be drop dead legendary to make up mistakes like most of the new especs. Will they be? I don’t hold my breath but fingers crossed.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Flow.2947]

I played in pve raids because wvw was not content. First i tested a power spec wich was okish need to get uesed to blocks and so on. the healing was meh, because the blade generation was not good.

 

But omg when i tryed out expertise build the bloodesong blade generation is insanely good with the inspiration. You basically have always 5 blades and generate them soo fast that you cant eaven spent them in terms of shatters. Which brought me to a bug: there is no overlapping in blades. When you have 5 blades and dont trigger your passives any more

[OriOri.8724]

47 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

That’s one thing, also something tells me they are struggling with low staff levels/resources. Like 1 or two people designed legendaries (gen 3 ) which all look the same. 
Then specs like virtuoso - it’s clear they know it’s bad but it is too late to amend the code etc.

I don't think its clear that they do know its bad. Reading through the changes made for beta 4, it sure sounded like ANet didn't even recognize that virtuoso's core design is lacking in multiple pretty big ways. They didn't even acknowledge any of the feedback about this, or about how its kit does not match what role they intend it to fill. It seems like they think its in a good spot.

 

Also, its not too late. They had months between the first beta and the 4th, and multiple other specs got pretty large reworks done in that time. The time and the staffing are there, the desire is what's missing.

 

5 minutes ago, Flow.2947 said:

But omg when i tryed out expertise build the bloodesong blade generation is insanely good with the inspiration. You basically have always 5 blades and generate them soo fast that you cant eaven spent them in terms of shatters. Which brought me to a bug: there is no overlapping in blades. When you have 5 blades and dont trigger your passives any more

That's not a bug, its by design. A bad design choice imo. And yea, like you found out, the new increased blade generation is pointless if bladesogn cooldowns aren't reduced in order to actually use them up.

 

Which is beside the point anyway, since virtuoso is supposed to be a pure, selfish DPS spec, you shouldn't be pairing it up with inspirations at all. It should be full damage, and the fact that inspirations has the highest synergy with virtuoso is telling of how poor the current design for the spec is.

[OriOri.8724]

At this point I almost want them to reverse the blade mechanic entirely. Have bladesongs and "blade" weapon skills generate blades, and then have the psionic skills scale off of how many blades you have when you use them. At 3 and 5 blades you could even add new effects to each psionic skill, idk.

 

Haven't really thought this out at all, but it already feels like it would be a more cohesive design, and it also fundamentally changes mesmer f skills, which neither chrono or mirage did

[Levetty.1279]

30 minutes ago, Flow.2947 said:

When you have 5 blades and dont trigger your passives any more

Yeah another major weakness of the spec and lack of synergy with traits.

[Levetty.1279]

24 minutes ago, OriOri.8724 said:

At this point I almost want them to reverse the blade mechanic entirely. Have bladesongs and "blade" weapon skills generate blades, and then have the psionic skills scale off of how many blades you have when you use them. At 3 and 5 blades you could even add new effects to each psionic skill, idk.

 

Haven't really thought this out at all, but it already feels like it would be a more cohesive design, and it also fundamentally changes mesmer f skills, which neither chrono or mirage did

Knocking out a more interesting concept in 5 minutes.

[Mik.3401]

3 hours ago, OriOri.8724 said:

I don't think its clear that they do know its bad. Reading through the changes made for beta 4, it sure sounded like ANet didn't even recognize that virtuoso's core design is lacking in multiple pretty big ways. They didn't even acknowledge any of the feedback about this, or about how its kit does not match what role they intend it to fill. It seems like they think its in a good spot.

 

Also, its not too late. They had months between the first beta and the 4th, and multiple other specs got pretty large reworks done in that time. The time and the staffing are there, the desire is what's missing.

 

That's not a bug, its by design. A bad design choice imo. And yea, like you found out, the new increased blade generation is pointless if bladesogn cooldowns aren't reduced in order to actually use them up.

 

Which is beside the point anyway, since virtuoso is supposed to be a pure, selfish DPS spec, you shouldn't be pairing it up with inspirations at all. It should be full damage, and the fact that inspirations has the highest synergy with virtuoso is telling of how poor the current design for the spec is.

To me their behaviour looks like they are avoiding the topic of virtuoso because they don’t have the capacity to rework it until the release. But hopefully your guess is the right one.

[Yoci.2481]

Don't put too much faith into anything they say publicly. That is corporate speech, they will say only what they are allowed to say. It doesn't represent what they actually think and do.

[Ludovide.1967]

I tried the healing/sustain build with signet of ether and the inspiration traitline, and as far as I can tell it just doesn't trigger if you have max blades. Like you can't stock a blade when you have max blades so it just doesnt work. I really hope they fix this, because it doesn't feel like an intentional decision. Also I don't think the heal on shatter ability scales to five blades right now, unfortunately