it's almost 2022

[Ayakaru.6583]

And we still need to wait 3 hours for a party to form for a story mode dungeon run.

Just give us an NPC party, or scale everything down, there's literally no need for a party for the story mode. I mean, for Grenth's sake,

it's supposed to be _your experience_ with destiny's edge, not a rando's?

 

Edit:  I just thought of the simplest solution. Completely remove the story mode from the dungeons. Add "Destiny's Edge" to the story journal. Story mode can now be entered via a green star in front of the dungeon. Done.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Ayakaru.6583

[Stelawrat.6589]

2 hours ago, Ayakaru.6583 said:

And we still need to wait 3 hours for a party to form for a story mode dungeon run.

Just give us an NPC party, or scale everything down, there's literally no need for a party for the story mode. I mean, for Grenth's sake,

it's supposed to be _your experience_ with destiny's edge, not a rando's?

I understand that GW style Heroes will most likely, never be a feature in GW2 & that's fine.

I agree with the OP though & would really appreciate it if ArenaNet could scale down the difficulty, so that I could complete story mode dungeons on my own. It's something that I'd love to do but to date, haven't been able to & I know that I'm missing out on some really well done content. 

[Gibson.4036]

I have been thinking about downscaling recently and whether it was such a great idea.

There has been a lot of experimentation with games in the last decade or so to have them dynamically scale difficulty in response to how players are playing. MMOs have long had the mechanic of letting players find their "sweet spot" of difficulty by letting them outlevel content and come back and try it with more power. This also lets players who are more likely to duo or trio come back and do content designed for larger groups.

Of course, the downside to this is you can outlevel it to the point where it becomes ridiculously easy.

Downscaling, as far as I understand it, was intended to lengthen the lifespan of content because you couldn't trivialize it by outleveling and outgearing it. But has that actually been the result? Players who tackle the content at the beginning get all the rewards they want and move on. Players who aren't inclied to join 5 person groups or who aren't able to reaching the skill requirement just never do it. Even new players who are skilled and interested in grouping are more inclined to skip it for later content that now offers better rewards.

It seems to me that if there wasn't downscaling in core dungeons, new solo or duo players would still be doing them for the story. I'd definitely go back with my son and duo them for the DE story and to get some of the rewards I just skipped long ago. I might even carry my daughter (who tends to be a stand still and spam 1 player) through them so she could experience the story as well.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[AgentMoore.9453]

+1 to OP's suggestion.

I like dungeons quite a lot even though I know they've moved on to fractals (then raids, then DRMs, then strike missions, etc.), and would love seeing a big ol overhaul to address the many bugs and other pain points people have raised about them over the years. Dungeons are intrinsically linked to the base story in this game, and it will always be weird to me that ArenaNet doesn't curate that core experience (personal story, core maps, dungeons, the absence of LS1). It'd take some resources, time, and effort; we know this. Still worth it.

They must know they still get new players who play through that content for the first time and sit there like 'why is this like this after 9 years??' They have to know. The forums tell them all the time.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

I was in this situation a few weeks ago. One of the newbies/returners I currently help wanted to play some dungeons, but did not feel comfortable playing with other people. So I've picked one of my overpowered alt-characters, which perform a little different and ran those Dungeons with the person as a 2-player-team. As long as it is story-dungeons, the difficulty is acceptable - for a team of two, where one is insanely powerful and knows every square-inch blindly.

We did a few Dungeons and I've spent my time explaining the mechanics, giving some side-information about the lore and fighting of course. Did I carry the encounter? In most cases, sadly yes. I was able to cover my tracks well enough, so it was not that obvious. But my impact was way too great to be ignored. I really wanted to use a normal character, so our contribution would have been almost equal. But even with the current level of the non-existent power-creep, the difficulty scale is still too high.

Having an NPC that did my job, would probably help. But it would have to scale with the difficulty. The more players there are in the group, the less powerful it should be. Its strength should scale with their performance and its support-capabilities match their survivability. That is a lot of data-tracking, calculating and balancing involved. A too-powerful carry NPC would make the encounters too easy.

My dear farmers ❤️ would straight up abuse it for daily dungeon-runs and do something else, while the NPC does the work. Right at the end of the dungeon, they would disable the NPC, sell 4 party-slots and make huge profit. Yes they sadly are that annoying. Every oversight or common-sense mechanic is considered a "THE DEVELOPERS INTENDED ME TO GET FREE GOLD HERE"-invitation until the mechanic is disabled/fixed. 

There is however one solution for this request. Sadly I cannot go too deep into details, as it would violate my personal code regarding exploits. My dear farmers ❤️ are watchful regarding this kind of information. But you will get the point:

-

I've experienced a strange situation in an instance. I took a break between multiple phases and returned about 15 minutes later. To my huge surprise, someone disposed of one encounter and continued with the instance. After a few tests, I realized that it was a certain NPC that was programmed to auto-operate, the moment you reach a certain point in the instance. The NPC was by design immortal and dealt hilariously low damage. But it was technically capable of soloing the entire instance, all by itself. It just took an eternity.

If we had such an immortal NPC in dungeons, which just progressed with the player and assisted with the damage, it would be fine. The players would still feel powerful, even if they had little to no knowledge about their class and the place they walk. The farmers would refuse to abuse this mechanic, as it would take way too long.

I've made an ingame report about this. If any staff-member reads this post, they can easily find the report in question and check about the details. I think it would be worth a try. Just one NPC with the AI of a necromancer-minion should not eat too many resources. 

[Randulf.7614]

The op has a valid point and I for one would like to see the story mode reworked as solo instances like Arah was and even linked into the personal story a bit more organically. I like the Destiny’s Edge story. I suspect most players skip this content when levelling or never even try it out later. I’m in favour of keeping explorable as it is, but story as solo seems like a good change to make once the expac is in place.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Randulf.7614

[Mesket.5728]

7 hours ago, Ayakaru.6583 said:

Just give us an NPC party,

GW1 heroes,.. the kind of Mastery track that would've been nice to have in EoD.

[sorudo.9054]

every dungeon has an NPC at the gate (or so i remember), why not just have an option so you can indicate what size the party is going to be?

that way bigger groups can get in with the appropriate challenge level while solo or duo players don't have to deal with a full party difficulty.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I’m in favour of keeping explorable as it is, but story as solo seems like a good change to make once the expac is in place.

Sounds ok.

23 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

GW1 heroes,.. the kind of Mastery track that would've been nice to have in EoD.

No self-playing mmorpgs please, ty.

[Gibson.4036]

17 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

 

No self-playing mmorpgs please, ty.

Maybe my memory's fuzzy, it's been a decade after all, but I remember having to play my heroes as well as my main in GW1.

Of course, that wouldn't really work in GW2 with the action combat.

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Maybe my memory's fuzzy, it's been a decade after all, but I remember having to play my heroes as well as my main in GW1.

Of course, that wouldn't really work in GW2 with the action combat.

Did I try to say it wasn't a thing in gw1 or anywhere else? What exactly are you responding to?

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Gibson.4036]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Did I try to say it wasn't a thing in gw1 or anywhere else? What exactly are you responding to?

You said

23 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No self-playing mmorpgs please, ty.

In response to

48 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

GW1 heroes,.. the kind of Mastery track that would've been nice to have in EoD.

I don't remember GW1 heroes making it into "self-playing". They had to be managed.

[Sobx.1758]

13 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

You said

In response to

I don't remember GW1 heroes making it into "self-playing". They had to be managed.

Most ideas in regards of adding heroes I've seen on this forum boil down to getting carried by the party of legal bots. I don't count "you can customize/set priorities to the npcs" as active management or active gameplay, which is why I said "no self-playing mmorpgs please, ty".

 

But I get what you were saying now.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Randulf.7614]

12 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Calm down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZBhs0qtzk

"Nothing like what I'm picturing it"? Is this what an active gameplay looks to you? 8 AI controlled characters following your every step and auto-using skills at your targets? This is basically a legal bot train. This is awful, so still no autoplay in mmorpgs please, ty.

Absolutely explain how this is "nothing like what I'm picturing it".

GW1 heroes (not to be confused with henchman) were a mix of auto play and manual. They were akin to strategy games. You set the skills and can actively utilise their skills at your command like your own character. Their positions, their movement, their strategies could be manually controlled. In fact doing so was key to hard mode play in solo mode. I agree that they aren’t suited for an mmo like GW2, but we aren’t talking full auto play either

Its not really what this thread is about though. This is more about scaling and solo mode. Heroes requires new tech and flatter pathways. The on,y way npc parties could work is using the existing characters who follow you in, but they’d need better ai and stats. I’d prefer the scaling route to be honest.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Randulf.7614

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

yeah this is the equivalent of afk farming engies or necros, or even a ranger if he wants to afk and have its pet kills things for him... this is not an instanced dungeon. So I guess I was right, you have no idea what you are talking about and just imagining things from selected footage and comments.

When did I say anything about "afk farming engies or necros"? Sure, you need to press 1 on your target to initiate  the party of the bots to start jumping all over your target, if that's somehow supposed to be the proof of that legal bot train not being pretty much self-play, then I think we're done here.

Quote

I don't know why I'm feeding your ignorance but just so you know, besides what it seems, you don't start the game with that party. Not all maps are that easy, he is showcasing a vanilla map. You have to get each and every ability for each heroe, and plan your strategy and synergy among them.. so if you end up having a strong party that can kill on its own, it still is part of your progression/effort. AND, here is the good part... YOU ARE NOT FORCED to use them, so you can easily opt out.

And there it is. Now it's not selfplay "since it doesn't start that way". I'm not even talking about the map or whether or not that particular content is easy. I'm talking about the gameplay pattern and proposed here ""solution"" boiling down to being a bot train on your back (except not always on your back, you just have to press that "1" and then stay behind, w/e).

Me "not being forced to use them" doesn't make them any less self-play or any less of a bot train.

14 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

Also, wooden potatoes

Irrelevant, I'm not following him nor do I have any opinion about him, just linked "some video" so you can see the example of what I'm talking about.

18 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Its not really what this thread is about though. This is more about scaling and solo mode.

I mean, it seems to be part of the discussion? Which is why I said: I think scaling down the story modes might be good, but introducing legal bot train? Nah.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

This is the level of confusion you get when listening to people like wooden potatoes. You keep repeating yourself without knowing what you're talking about.

The creator of the video was never relevant to this discussion -I don't follow him nor do I have any opinion about him, so lay off your cheap attempts at the insults. I've just linked some video so you can see the example of what I'm talking about. Dodge all you want, try pretending the video is a lie or w/e -it clearly shows the behavior and ""gameplay"" pattern that... mechanic provides. The moment anet introduces legal bots to the game will be the sign to me that they gave up. Doesn't mean it will be the fact, but that is definitely what I will see it as.

Repeating something along the lines of "you need to level/gear them up" really, REALLY doesn't change anything I said here.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

I don't need to dodge, I've been there. Played the game. Know how it worked. You don't. You posted a video about an OP synergy between skills, (one among hundreds of skills) and boxed a whole game mechanic there. Like it means anything. I'm not dodging, you are just saying nothing that matters because you know nothing and it shows.

 

You say they're not passive. We can clearly see a bot train that spams skills at whatever the player uses an attack on. Nothing I said here seems to be false, not sure why you're so defensive and constantly try to insult me instead of responding to what I'm saying.

Again, this is not about "this specific comp" or "this specific content". It is about having a bot train on ""your"" back while you pretend that's not what it is.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Randulf.7614]

Out of curiosity since I didn’t click the vid to save on data, is it showing heroes or henchman?

[Astralporing.1957]

6 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Out of curiosity since I didn’t click the vid to save on data, is it showing heroes or henchman?

Heroes - a full (due to WP splurging on a mercenary pack) mesmer Energy Surge team. Shown on some easy Prophecies maps mobs.

[Randulf.7614]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Heroes - a full (due to WP splurging on a mercenary pack) mesmer Energy Surge team. Shown on some easy Prophecies maps mobs.

Ah ok, thanks. 

[Gibson.4036]

Isn't that the same guy who did core GW2 story letting his ranger pet do the entire thing?

[Linken.6345]

29 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Isn't that the same guy who did core GW2 story letting his ranger pet do the entire thing?

it is yea to show how easy that is.

[Ashantara.8731]

6 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I have been thinking about downscaling recently and whether it was such a great idea.

There has been a lot of experimentation with games in the last decade or so to have them dynamically scale difficulty in response to how players are playing. MMOs have long had the mechanic of letting players find their "sweet spot" of difficulty by letting them outlevel content and come back and try it with more power. This also lets players who are more likely to duo or trio come back and do content designed for larger groups.

Of course, the downside to this is you can outlevel it to the point where it becomes ridiculously easy.

Well, story mode isn't the same as running the explorable Dungeon paths, so the whole point is to have it easier if you are entering alone so that you can play through the story mode alone.

I think the only Dungeon I've solo'd in story mode so far was Ascalon. But I know I have characters/professions that I wouldn't be able to do any of them solo - however, I would love to be able to do it so that each of my characters can complete the story mode for Dungeons. In the current state, I couldn't be arsed to play story mode with more than two of my chars simply because I don't want to have to group up for them and then feel rushed to skip cinematics and have no time for exploration, either.

[Gibson.4036]

2 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Well, story mode isn't the same as running the explorable Dungeon paths, so the whole point is to have it easier if you are entering alone so that you can play through the story mode alone.

I think the only Dungeon I've solo'd in story mode so far was Ascalon. But I know I have characters/professions that I wouldn't be able to do any of them solo - however, I would love to be able to do it so that each of my characters can complete the story mode for Dungeons. In the current state, I couldn't be arsed to play story mode with more than two of my chars simply because I don't want to have to group up for them and then feel rushed to skip cinematics and have no time for exploration, either.

Yeah, it'd be great if it was possible to find that sweet spot where it would be doable solo or duo with just enough challenge to make it interesting.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

7 hours ago, Stelawrat.6589 said:

I understand that GW style Heroes will most likely, never be a feature in GW2 & that's fine.

I agree with the OP though & would really appreciate it if ArenaNet could scale down the difficulty, so that I could complete story mode dungeons on my own. It's something that I'd love to do but to date, haven't been able to & I know that I'm missing out on some really well done content. 

Dungeons are  set in the game balance of 2014.  Dungeons are already easy due to powercreep.  Most, if not all dungeon story modes can be solo'd with minimal game knowledge (Break bars and do some damage).