Hammer is still terrible

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

It has no flow other than spam your 3, and really the 5% buffs are pretty negligible in 95% of content. All the combos are slow and deal pitiful damage, its basically a golem benchmark weapon. All the number 2 skills except for fire need to be completely reworked into something usable if this weapon is going to be used at all.

[Avatara.1042]

It also does not do enough burns and bleeds, and you still get smashed meleeing with it.

Hammer 3 needs to die.

[Infusion.7149]

I disagree with your assessment of #2 skill reworks. Honestly the #2 skills aren't what needs help damage-wise, the only one that was absolutely terrible before this patch was whirling stones on a non-condi build.

Hammer #1 on earth could easily be rebalanced with bleeding. Right now if your orb is down it does no conditions. Hammer #1 on fire/air should seriously be piercing or something that hits 3-5 targets as the damage is low enough to warrant that.

Hammer #3 skill should be lengthier and the bonuses ought to be defensive. You're using hammer in melee with no evades or any form of sustain besides the block and heal (weakness spam on air orb as well but it doesn't do anything otherwise). Since Grand Finale is offensive , it innately builds in a shift from defense to offense : you trade defensive capability to do damage.

I feel there aren't many scenario where hammer #4 Wind Storm is actually useful : you're using a predominantly melee weapon so knocking yourself back penalizes you for using it. If it knocked your target back it could see use in competitive modes. It's akin to ride the lightning but in reverse, in most cases you'd be better off if it just knocked down and didn't have any movement at all (maybe the movement should be a flip skill but that just adds even more complexity).

For a spec based off comboing hammer is actually weaker in that regard than scepter or staff let alone dagger.

• Fire 4 (triple sear) is on 20s cooldown and doesn't have fire field, but this isn't as large a problem now that you can stack jade spheres.
• Fire 5 (molten end) is on 30s cooldown for blasting. This isn't a skill you save as it does damage and provides might and fury.
• Water 4 (Crashing font) is a 20s cooldown leap. It's more an engagement skill and damage is not quite high (only 1.25 coefficient).
• Water 5 (Cleansing Typhoon) is on 25s cooldown and is a whirl. Since it's condi clear you would want to save it in theory but it does 1.5 power coefficient and fights where you don't have incoming condi that has no value so you'd still use it.
• Air 5 (shock blast) is 25s cooldown blast. Since it's a CC skill you won't haphazardly use it especially since the damage is low.
• Earth 5 (Ground Pound) is 30s cooldown blast. Bleed and immob on top of 1.3 coefficient so you'd use it on engagement.

If you rely on #5 skills only to upkeep the bonus on Empowering Aura (which stacks up to 5 stacks) or Elemental Epitome it is extremely unwieldy even with a 10s duration on the buffs. If you don't have alacrity you are looking at 1/30s , 1/20s , 1/25s, 1/25s, 1/30s which is about once every 5s.

If you use staff or scepter you have a 6s cooldown blast , so perhaps this spec weapon ought to focus on whirl and add whirl onto hurricane of pain and whirling stones (which gives extra value to fire fields and poison fields ; light fields in WVW/PVP). Whirling Stones is 8s cooldown and Hurricane of Pain is on 10s cooldown meaning even without alac you have some semblence of keeping your bonuses if you are saving skills for opportune times (especially since shock blast does minimal damage).

All the 5 skills feel as though they are meant as #3 skills right now.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Avatara.1042]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I disagree with your assessment of #2 skill reworks. Honestly the #2 skills aren't what needs help damage-wise, the only one that was absolutely terrible before this patch was whirling stones on a non-condi build.

Hammer #1 on earth could easily be rebalanced with bleeding. Right now if your orb is down it does no conditions. Hammer #1 on fire/air should seriously be piercing or something that hits 3-5 targets as the damage is low enough to warrant that.

Hammer #3 skill should be lengthier and the bonuses ought to be defensive. You're using hammer in melee with no evades or any form of sustain besides the block and heal (weakness spam on air orb as well but it doesn't do anything otherwise). Since Grand Finale is offensive , it innately builds in a shift from defense to offense : you trade defensive capability to do damage.

I feel there aren't many scenario where hammer #4 Wind Storm is actually useful : you're using a predominantly melee weapon so knocking yourself back penalizes you for using it. If it knocked your target back it could see use in competitive modes. It's akin to ride the lightning but in reverse, in most cases you'd be better off if it just knocked down and didn't have any movement at all (maybe the movement should be a flip skill but that just adds even more complexity).

For a spec based off comboing hammer is actually weaker in that regard than scepter or staff let alone dagger.

• Fire 4 (triple sear) is on 20s cooldown and doesn't have fire field, but this isn't as large a problem now that you can stack jade spheres.
• Fire 5 (molten end) is on 30s cooldown for blasting. This isn't a skill you save as it does damage and provides might and fury.
• Water 4 (Crashing font) is a 20s cooldown leap. It's more an engagement skill and damage is not quite high (only 1.25 coefficient).
• Water 5 (Cleansing Typhoon) is on 25s cooldown and is a whirl. Since it's condi clear you would want to save it in theory but it does 1.5 power coefficient and fights where you don't have incoming condi that has no value so you'd still use it.
• Air 5 (shock blast) is 25s cooldown blast. Since it's a CC skill you won't haphazardly use it especially since the damage is low.
• Earth 5 (Ground Pound) is 30s cooldown blast. Bleed and immob on top of 1.3 coefficient so you'd use it on engagement.

If you rely on #5 skills only to upkeep the bonus on Empowering Aura (which stacks up to 5 stacks) or Elemental Epitome it is extremely unwieldy even with a 10s duration on the buffs. If you don't have alacrity you are looking at 1/30s , 1/20s , 1/25s, 1/25s, 1/30s which is about once every 5s.

If you use staff or scepter you have a 6s cooldown blast , so perhaps this spec weapon ought to focus on whirl and add whirl onto hurricane of pain and whirling stones (which gives extra value to fire fields and poison fields ; light fields in WVW/PVP). Whirling Stones is 8s cooldown and Hurricane of Pain is on 10s cooldown meaning even without alac you have some semblence of keeping your bonuses if you are saving skills for opportune times (especially since shock blast does minimal damage).

All the 5 skills feel as though they are meant as #3 skills right now.

Well said.  Hammer 2 was the only part which felt fun and right (though the damage and condition application is lacking).  And yeah Hammer 3 needs to be replaced with gap closers, blast finishers and cripples, etc.

Edit - Do not get me wrong.  Hammer 2 skills still need to do a lot more, and only work if Hammer 3 dies the horrible death it deserves.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Avatara.1042

[Snow.6105]

Hammer feels faster, needs to be sped up more and damage needs to be increased.

Even in berserker gear it hits for absolutely nothing which is insane.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Well said.  Hammer 2 was the only part which felt fun and right (though the damage and condition application is lacking).  And yeah Hammer 3 needs to be replaced with gap closers, blast finishers and cripples, etc.

Maybe in pve hammer 2 is "fine" because mobs stand still and take it. In pvp it does pathetic damage and is incredibly easy to avoid. You are better off auto attacking or immediately stowing the skill to bait your opponent. But regardless of damage, i think having 3 long channelled attacks on the number 2 skill is too many. It pauses the flow of combat too much and punishes you if you dont get value from them. Its the same thing with meteor shower, barrage, 100 blades, etc. They only have value if you land them, which isnt realistic in a lot of situations.

[Downstate.4697]

For pvp the damage is there. The sustain is not. There is not much you can do when getting bursted down on hammer. It has mediocre sustain with mediocre range and mobility. Good players will train you down.  I wish anet would be open to changing the design instead of tweaking it.

[Avatara.1042]

9 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Maybe in pve hammer 2 is "fine" because mobs stand still and take it. In pvp it does pathetic damage and is incredibly easy to avoid. You are better off auto attacking or immediately stowing the skill to bait your opponent. But regardless of damage, i think having 3 long channelled attacks on the number 2 skill is too many. It pauses the flow of combat too much and punishes you if you dont get value from them. Its the same thing with meteor shower, barrage, 100 blades, etc. They only have value if you land them, which isnt realistic in a lot of situations.

I know the entire spec lacks, well, everything, but these skills actually felt fun which is a miracle seeing how kitten the spec is.  I never said 'fine', btw, I meant they do not need to be scrapped like Hammer 3 and the utilities.

 

Water 2 needs to chill on first hit and not re-use the 100 blades animation with the end cut off.

Fire 2 needs more burn stacks.

Earth 2 needs more bleed stacks and to be a whirl finisher.

Air 2 needs to cripple or pull people in.

[scerevisiae.1972]

Agree, hammer is just all wrong.

 

• I REALLY HATE that water and earth don't have any ranged attacks. It forces you to go into melee but hammer doesn't have the evades and sustain to melee.  
• At the very least, water 1 and earth 1 should be 600 range to match air/fire
• I would strongly argue all of the 5 skills should also be 600 range
• The hammer 3s feel pointless, I don't like them at all. They don't last long enough and don't really do anything useful. The finale skill never seems available when I want to use it.

 

Overall, hammer is just too melee-oriented and the ABSOLUTE LAST thing I want is yet another melee weapon.

 

I think a 600 range *could* maybe work, but hammer does not deliver on this brief. 

 

As a WVW player, I'm quite sick of staff being the only real go-to weapon in WVW. After 9 years, I think Anet should have done a LOT better than hammer, and TBH I couldn' really be more disappointed.

 

update 2/11: played hammer for 4hr in WVW yesterday, even in full marauder gear, the damage was pathetic, I couldn't get higher than ~65% of the numbers achieved by "regular" DPS classes, despite high APM and good skill usage and damage-oritented build. Lack of range is a serious limitation but the AOE skills are all also only 180 radius.

conclusion: hammer is total trash.

Edited December 1, 2021 by scerevisiae.1972

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Maybe in pve hammer 2 is "fine" because mobs stand still and take it. In pvp it does pathetic damage and is incredibly easy to avoid. You are better off auto attacking or immediately stowing the skill to bait your opponent. But regardless of damage, i think having 3 long channelled attacks on the number 2 skill is too many. It pauses the flow of combat too much and punishes you if you dont get value from them. Its the same thing with meteor shower, barrage, 100 blades, etc. They only have value if you land them, which isnt realistic in a lot of situations.

You're not rooted while using them unlike meteor/hundred blades/barrage.

If your point is about 95% of content: 95% of players probably don't PVP. In WVW you could land hurricane of pain / surging flames or melee ranged whirling stones/ rain of blows vs CC-ed targets and in well bombs, it's the mobility/sustain that's the problem which can be alleviated to an extent with superspeed heal scrapper and heralds. I think the larger issue at hand is there's not many reasons to run it as a spec overall other than hammer. Intrinsically that means hammer has to be improved. Catalyst is competing against DPS such as berserker, holo (which works in PVP too), immob soulbeast , herald (which works in PVP), weaver, DH , staff daredevil, etc. It doesn't fill in for say a spellbreaker or power scourge / power reaper which have boon rips.

I highly doubt you're better off autoattacking since the damage over the channel time is higher than auto attacks especially when you factor in traits that apply conditions on hit or Shattering Ice.

• Surging flames  = 1.13 coefficient + burn in PVP/WVW , 0.75s channel time --- singeing strike is 0.5 coefficient with 0.5 cast
• Rain of blows = 1.2 coefficient in PVP/WVW  , 1.5s channel time --- auto is 0.53, 0.6, 0.8 and it is far harder to connect an entire autochain over 1.5s cast before aftercast
• Hurricane of Pain = 2.43 in PVP /WVW , 3s channel --- wind slam is 0.6 coefficient with 0.75 channel time before aftercast and has zero cleave
• Whirling Stones  = 1.705 + bleed , reflect on 2s channel --- Stonestrike is 0.7 coefficient with 0.75 channel time before aftercast , you'd have a point before the activation time dropped to 2s

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You're not rooted while using them unlike meteor/hundred blades/barrage.

If your point is about 95% of content: 95% of players probably don't PVP. In WVW you could land hurricane of pain / surging flames or melee ranged whirling stones/ rain of blows vs CC-ed targets and in well bombs, it's the mobility/sustain that's the problem which can be alleviated to an extent with superspeed heal scrapper and heralds. I think the larger issue at hand is there's not many reasons to run it as a spec overall other than hammer. Intrinsically that means hammer has to be improved. Catalyst is competing against DPS such as berserker, holo (which works in PVP too), immob soulbeast , herald (which works in PVP), weaver, DH , staff daredevil, etc. It doesn't fill in for say a spellbreaker or power scourge / power reaper which have boon rips.

I highly doubt you're better off autoattacking since the damage over the channel time is higher than auto attacks especially when you factor in traits that apply conditions on hit or Shattering Ice.

• Surging flames  = 1.13 coefficient + burn in PVP/WVW , 0.75s channel time --- singeing strike is 0.5 coefficient with 0.5 cast
• Rain of blows = 1.2 coefficient in PVP/WVW  , 1.5s channel time --- auto is 0.53, 0.6, 0.8 and it is far harder to connect an entire autochain over 1.5s cast before aftercast
• Hurricane of Pain = 2.43 in PVP /WVW , 3s channel --- wind slam is 0.6 coefficient with 0.75 channel time before aftercast and has zero cleave
• Whirling Stones  = 1.705 + bleed , reflect on 2s channel --- Stonestrike is 0.7 coefficient with 0.75 channel time before aftercast , you'd have a point before the activation time dropped to 2s

Temporary 5% damage buffs are pretty negligible outside of raiding and fractal, and the mitigation is hardly ever going to amount to anything. And yeah, auto attacking is better than sitting in a pointless channeled attack where your opponent can easily counter attack. Not everything about combat comes down to theoretical spreadsheet dps.

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Temporary 5% damage buffs are pretty negligible outside of raiding and fractal, and the mitigation is hardly ever going to amount to anything. And yeah, auto attacking is better than sitting in a pointless channeled attack where your opponent can easily counter attack. Not everything about combat comes down to theoretical spreadsheet dps.

Your missing the part where there's a projectile block on whirling stones and vuln on hurricane of pain.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149
not reflect

[Henrik.7560]

It's horrible, I won't ever use it unless completely reworked.

[Arheundel.6451]

They're just scared to give ele the ability to do actual dmg....

[scerevisiae.1972]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Your missing the part where there's a projectile reflect on whirling stones and vuln on hurricane of pain.

Not reflect, only block FWIW

[The Fear.3865]

I manage to make a correct bruiser build in pvp, and it's fun. 

There's some minor modifications needed, like the 1.5 sphere CD on swap and energy management which should not rely on hit. 

Hammer skill 3 needs to last longer, it's interesting but you can almost never use grand finale with the 4 elements up. But with 2 or 3 is pretty easy. 

Fire hits really hard, earth is the perfect anti projectile kit, water heals like crazy. 

It can struggle a bit against some condi builds. 

It's really hard to chase ennemies. 

[volca.7234]

Actually hammer is the most fluid weapon ele has right now, Just because you aren't familiar with it doesn't mean its bad, the no cast time on the 3 skill allows you to cast it mid animation with a grace period of 2/3 skills between each 3 activation for maximum fluidity, this entire thread feels like people who didn't find the rhythm of a musical instrument yet so they call it trash lmao  

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, volca.7234 said:

Actually hammer is the most fluid weapon ele has right now, Just because you aren't familiar with it doesn't mean its bad, the no cast time on the 3 skill allows you to cast it mid animation with a grace period of 2/3 skills between each 3 activation for maximum fluidity, this entire thread feels like people who didn't find the rhythm of a musical instrument yet so they call it trash lmao  

It's trash because it's a trash.
You may call it fluid, but reality is, it's only fluid against static targets like PvE benchmark golem and nothing beside that, since you can focus on your piano skills without paying attention to the surroundings and what happens in front of you.
F5 breaks the fluidity as kitten, the 3 skill is just lazy attempt to NOT MAKE more valuable skills that actually could make hammer more usable.
The fluidity is Dagger/Dagger, to a degree Weaver and Tempest, Craptalyst is just trying to play piano with both hands while also trying to adjust your violin with 1 leg and other leg used to flip pages in your "How to not be hated by cats" guide book.

[Agrios.9071]

I think catalyst hammer has a big discrepancy in its performance for pve and for wvw/pvp. In pve it appears extremely fluid and looks very promising (this was already the case in beta 1). Now in beta 2 it seems to overperform quite a bit in pve.

 

However in wvw and spvp it has many issues and the fluidity fails because it means you have to lock yourself out of skills you might need seconds later.  The 3 skills are not real skills in a competetive environment because they are difficult to set up, very telegraphed and you only have a small window for the grand finale. If they only touch projectile hate they are gone completely. In 1v1s it might work somewhat (depending on the match up) but in larger fights there is simply too much projectile hate to make this combination of skills work at all.

 

And a large part of the damage catalyst can do comes from the jade sphere (17 %) and the orbs (31 %). The % numbers are based on the log of Roul's video on small hitbox. Now take away the dmg from the jade sphere and negate the orbs with projectile hate (or dont stand afk next to the catalyst) and suddenly catalys doesnt do damage anymore.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Agrios.9071

[volca.7234]

10 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

It's trash because it's a trash.
You may call it fluid, but reality is, it's only fluid against static targets like PvE benchmark golem and nothing beside that, since you can focus on your piano skills without paying attention to the surroundings and what happens in front of you.
F5 breaks the fluidity as kitten, the 3 skill is just lazy attempt to NOT MAKE more valuable skills that actually could make hammer more usable.
The fluidity is Dagger/Dagger, to a degree Weaver and Tempest, Craptalyst is just trying to play piano with both hands while also trying to adjust your violin with 1 leg and other leg used to flip pages in your "How to not be hated by cats" guide book.

Problem is i base my opinion on the PVP matches i have played not PVE, the hammer is just too good in a team fight mid noder and as a duelist, F5 doesnt break fluidity its 100% fluid its an instant cast no animation that u can cast mid slow hammer animations for a combo enabling you to not only cast mid animation for combo, u can cast a field for boon, then swap for a combo finisher in another attunment, then swap to which element u want your aura in, thats so much control in your hand its crazy, the fact u still looking at your skills instead of the fight is just cuz we still new to catalyst bro, till now playing catalyst as a team fighter i haven't lost a single match

[Rising Blade.9206]

edit: i seem to have gotten lost and didn't realized this wasn't the catalyst feedback thread. still yeah, hammer is still crap, just not fun to play with. if you're looking for fluidity, look at D/D, better fluidity and utility. overall has a better feel.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Rising Blade.9206
posted in the incorrect thread

[Flori.2194]

1 hour ago, volca.7234 said:

Problem is i base my opinion on the PVP matches i have played not PVE, the hammer is just too good in a team fight mid noder and as a duelist

Have you played against a real sidenoder or duelist? And in at least high gold or low platinum? They rip pieces into this piece of kitten, it has no built in survivability, waiting a few moments to deploy this useless sphere often means death or at least enough pressure to make you retreat...

[Stallic.2397]

10 hours ago, The Fear.3865 said:

I manage to make a correct bruiser build in pvp, and it's fun. 

There's some minor modifications needed, like the 1.5 sphere CD on swap and energy management which should not rely on hit. 

Hammer skill 3 needs to last longer, it's interesting but you can almost never use grand finale with the 4 elements up. But with 2 or 3 is pretty easy. 

Fire hits really hard, earth is the perfect anti projectile kit, water heals like crazy. 

It can struggle a bit against some condi builds. 

It's really hard to chase ennemies. 

 

Agree with so many points here. Jade sphere is much better as instant cast, but also needs to be available upon attunement swap. Not 1.5 sec later

 

Energy should always be building, no matter if spheres are active or not

 

Hammer 3 orbs need way longer durations. So much upkeep with catalyst, it's definitely piano play but lacking any chance to actually read your opponent (pvp). 

 

I would also add shortening cast time of Fire 5 and Earth 5. 1 sec as is right now. Not bad, but with hammer catalyst, you don't even have time for that. You'll lose all the buffs you were trying so hard to keep throughout your rotation.

I've been using instant cast utilities cause anything else would destroy rotation. I thought weaver or core was bad. Catalyst sounds like I'm typing a thesis paper for college finals with all the buttons I'm pressing, all at once

Edited December 1, 2021 by Stallic.2397

[anbujackson.9564]

Sure, the effects and the attack ranges are all over the place. But to be honest, I would still rather take that hammer over my gunsaber. At least players cant sidewalk or jump your hardest hitting attacks.

And I dare to say its much better than staff (which is a nerfed broken mess though). It just needs some movement/leaps to compete with sword/dagger. The spec in itself has a good foundation and appropriate changes shouldnt be too hard.

Edited December 1, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[Mattmatt.4962]

4 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Sure, the effects and the attack ranges are all over the place. But to be honest, I would still rather take that hammer over my gunsaber. At least players cant sidewalk or jump your hardest hitting attacks.

And I dare to say its much better than staff (which is a nerfed broken mess though). It just needs some movement/leaps to compete with sword/dagger. The spec in itself has a good foundation and appropriate changes shouldnt be too hard.

No it doesnt need anything to compete woth dagger/sword cause it shouldnt even compete with it in the first place.

Hammer should do something new, something ele has not covered with its current weapon pool (and there is quite a lot of hole in ele's weapon kit)