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Ok, Icebrood Saga over… now what?


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I completed the half-year return to journey replaying all living world content. There is still a gap between ice brood saga and the next End of Dragons expansion. How does your character know they need to go to Cantha? How does a new player finishing Icebrood saga know what’s next in the story? Heart of Thorns and Path of fire had some awesome cinematic that told the story of what is going to happen next for your character. The dialogue between Taimi and Gorrik is still speculation as what is going on with the dragon cycle. Still nothing substantial that says we’re going to Cantha! Can we get an EoD prologue, Icebrood Epilogue, or something? It can even be just a quick instance with a cinematic or something. This is driving me nuts!

Edited by Dark Red Killian.3946
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Totally agree with you, and I am even more concerned about how will be the transition from ibs to cantha eod.

The last dialogue between taimi and gorrik is heavily disapointing. I expected at least the world aetherblade after that dialogue saying someome is stealing and researching in taimi labs datas and information.

But in same times it implies that taimi is very sick and i find that rassuring that is has not be forgotten, but i really expect taimi to die and not become deus ex machina or golem.

In recent interview with laranity i think they said that the aetherblade are the reason we go to cantha but it is a kind of vision in the past.

Edited by hugo.4705
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17 hours ago, Dark Red Killian.3946 said:

The dialogue between Taimi and Gorrik is still speculation

This is disappointing to hear. Flash forward to even just a single year from now; some player finishes IBS and then.. Cantha is just there? We get an in-game mail upon completion that says 'wawee, commander, you need to come see this' and you get summoned to an airship?

I really hope there's something like an introductory story step that bridges the gap, because you can't rely on time-limited ambient chatter at a festival (which may not be going on at the time someone does IBS) or even the buried 'go talk to Taimi & Gorrik' achievement to convey a major plot point like 'yo we're going to another nation'. I'll stay tuned.

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47 minutes ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:



I really hope there's something like an introductory story step that bridges the gap, because you can't rely on time-limited ambient chatter at a festival (which may not be going on at the time someone does IBS) or even the buried 'go talk to Taimi & Gorrik' achievement to convey a major plot point like 'yo we're going to another nation'. I'll stay tuned.

Would something like PoF's intro work? Have a conversation in an instance in LA, then get on an airship to head to Cantha?

This time, though, maybe we'll warn the person talking to us that the little narcissist is listening by writing a note so it can't be overheard.

Edited by Gibson.4036
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Im really hoping for something of a more substantial prologue too...

I get they didn't want to lock the EoD prologue behind the gigantic time (and potentially money-) sink that the Returns achievement is, but we really need something more... substantial.

 

Season 1 ended with Mordy awakening, meaning we had the next baddie on our radar, and S2 essentially served as one big epilogue to S1 and prologue to HoT. I mean, there's literally like 5 in-universe minutes between the last instance of S2 and the first instance of HoT, so much so that HoT is actively kinda confusing if you dont know what happens in S2 lmao. 

Then before PoF, we had the entirey of S3 to build up balthazar as the baddie that we have to chase after in the expansion. Again, a clear direction for the commander to go in. 

But right now? If youre just playing S5, there's literally nothing to tie you over to EoD. In-game, the only hints at the future are locked behind the returns achievement, and even then it's vague: "the magic is going so far south that i can't exactly tell where it is" and "hey maybe the Deep Sea Dragon exists, idk tho". 

Having something during Lunar new year or a current event would be cool, but then there would need to be a way to properly fit that into the story journal so it's replayable for latecomers. Or it's gotta be an actual prologue chapter in EoD, but i higly doubt people would enjoy having to play through a bunch of story in central tyria first before theyre allowed to go to cantha.

 

In my ideal world they have something like grothmar valley planned, meaning an actual prologue patch that properly sets up the story, slots into the story journal, and has some nice extra content around it.

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2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Seems to me it can easly be set up/explained during the beginning of EoD story?

Yeah most likely whatever prologue we end up getting will be the transition. But OP is right, season 2 clearly transitioned to HoT as did Season 3 for PoF. IBS to EoD just has no clear transition at this point. Just getting a mail in the prologue telling us to get on an airship would be a super lame way to handle this. Cantha opening up is a huge deal.

I could see maybe some stuff coming from the Cantha New Year festival maybe? Would be an interesting spot to start transitioning us to EoD story.

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23 minutes ago, Faridah.8431 said:

Yeah most likely whatever prologue we end up getting will be the transition. But OP is right, season 2 clearly transitioned to HoT as did Season 3 for PoF. IBS to EoD just has no clear transition at this point. Just getting a mail in the prologue telling us to get on an airship would be a super lame way to handle this. Cantha opening up is a huge deal.

I could see maybe some stuff coming from the Cantha New Year festival maybe? Would be an interesting spot to start transitioning us to EoD story.

Hypothetical of how it can go based on what we know right now (unless I'm missing something here, then correct me) :  

"a lot of the dragon magic went somewhere instead of into aurene" -> "we're back to testing some dragon stuff" -> EoD can easly start with revelation where the dragon magic went and whatnot, which sets a clear direction -and I'm just guessing here- to cantha. How is something like that not a clear transition?

Edited by Sobx.1758
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41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How is something like that not a clear transition?

sure, that's something, but it's still essentially coming up with the plan to go to cantha when we're already /in/ the cantha expansion.

while not great, that would be alright. but you see the problem is, all that hinting with "the magic is going south" "someone broke into my lab" etc is all locked behind a GIGANTIC achievement line, namely the returns achievements. If someone starts playing the story now or later, theyd either have to buy all of living story and sink lots of time into the achievement, or theyre just kinda stuck without that bit of transition storytelling that we all got.

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25 minutes ago, Lord Dumpling.7914 said:

sure, that's something, but it's still essentially coming up with the plan to go to cantha when we're already /in/ the cantha expansion.

"in cantha expansion" =/= "in cantha".

It seems weird how someone is set on complaining about previous content not sending you to another land you can't even access yet, but the idea of getting a reason to get to the new land when you actually can reach it is somehow not enough. I don't understand what the actual problem here is. We can see there is a -probable- set-up with dragon magic going somwhere, so it doesn't even seem like it's somehow open ended without any idea for how the story could possibly continue.

Quote

while not great, that would be alright. but you see the problem is, all that hinting with "the magic is going south" "someone broke into my lab" etc is all locked behind a GIGANTIC achievement line, namely the returns achievements. If someone starts playing the story now or later, theyd either have to buy all of living story and sink lots of time into the achievement, or theyre just kinda stuck without that bit of transition storytelling that we all got.

"magic missing aurene", which seems to be the key part for now, wasn't set-up in return achievements, it was set-up in ibs. "Return to" achievements will start popping up when you start going through the ibs story for the first time anyways, right? And how crucial "someone broke into my lab" is for the continuation of the story is still unknown. Maybe if you skip that dialogue line, it won't exactly make much of a difference aside of being an added flavor.

And sorry, but calling "return to" achievements GIGANTIC is a solid stretch. If you make a choice to go strictly through the story and nothing else then it is your choice. If you plan to play those maps AT ALL, it's not really a "gigantic achievement line", since a lot of it is more or less auto-complete while you're normally playing through the content.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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Like other people I assume the introduction will be within the Eod story itself. I imagine the first chapter will be in Tyria and will involve us investigating some domestic threat that somehow turns out to be related to Cantha, probably followed by figuring out how we get to Cantha and making contact with the people there. (Although I think the main reason Cantha was cut off was Zhaitan, so getting there might not be that difficult now.)

I know GW2 normally does it differently but in general a self-contained story where the introduction is part of the story itself is not unusual. Maybe they've noticed that a lot of people find the close ties between the Living World and expansions confusing and they're slightly shifting towards making things clearer, so if you want to play an expansion storyline you can just do that without having to do the whole Living World season which preceded it first? That might make getting into the game less confusing for new players and make them feel less like they've got hours and hours of catch-up to do if they want to understand what's going on.

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We also need to remember if the story, including the prologue, all happens in the expansion, than new players in the future don't have to buy the IBS living world episodes... there have been some statements where people are concerned about new players not completing the Return To LW achievements won't know the details given out by Taimi and Gorrik, but think how confused a player who had never going through LWS 2 or 3 would have been starting in HoT and PoF?  Having the entire story contained within EoD removes that problem for future players...
They could solve that by bundling the previous LW season with the expansion in the future, but I digress... 😁

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yeah,

 

the main difference of this Xpac from others, is that the main villain inst HUGE spoiled like was in interregum of LS2 to Hot and LS3 to POF.. .... EOD is something different, the only thing i fear is that because just cuz "rushing xpac".

On 12/1/2021 at 9:16 AM, hugo.4705 said:

Totally agree with you, and I am even more concerned about how will be the transition from ibs to cantha eod.

The last dialogue between taimi and gorrik is heavily disapointing. I expected at least the world aetherblade after that dialogue saying someome is stealing and researching in taimi labs datas and information.

But in same times it implies that taimi is very sick and i find that rassuring that is has not be forgotten, but i really expect taimi to die and not become deus ex machina or golem.

In recent interview with laranity i think they said that the aetherblade are the reason we go to cantha but it is a kind of vision in the past.

yeah i think the same. theres something weird in this execution.

Edited by ugrakarma.9416
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On 12/1/2021 at 1:33 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

Would something like PoF's intro work? Have a conversation in an instance in LA, then get on an airship to head to Cantha?

This time, though, maybe we'll warn the person talking to us that the little narcissist is listening by writing a note so it can't be overheard.

The main issue I have is that there is no exciting finale to icebrood saga, one that would get us hyped for what is to come in end of dragons. I’m sure there will be a proper prologue to end of dragons to get us going into Cantha, but if you’re someone without end of dragons you could very well end icebrood saga without knowing there is more to do, and could be less inclined to purchase next expansion. Season 2 and 3 had great endings that showed us oh crap now we have this problem to deal with. They made it exciting as well as kind of a cliffhanger like what is coming next? Ice brood saga there is a big poof, and then dialogue that did not progress us anywhere thinking we gotta jump over to Cantha now.

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5 hours ago, Dark Red Killian.3946 said:

and then dialogue that did not progress us anywhere thinking we gotta jump over to Cantha now.

Except the dialogue where they talk about Aurene not being able to absorb all the dragon energy, it flying off somewhere, and us seeing a giant glow of magic going south(presumably to Cantha).

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I see a lot of folks say what Sajuuk just said. To dumb down: "We know it went south, and Cantha is south, so that's why we're going to Cantha."

One of the major issues with this is that there is a lot of places between Anvil Rock and Cantha.

Even ignoring the closer places in Tyria like Lion's Arch ley-nexus, the Shiverpeaks Bloodstone, Crucible of Eternity, and Artesian Waters ley-nexus and those in Elona that could be checked by this time, there's the entire Unending Ocean which has a bunch of Krait Obelisks that were established by the Priory to be like the Bloodstones. And there's still two Bloodstones in unknown locations.

And as Season 3 established, Bloodstones absorb magic in the world. And if Krait Obelisks function like Bloodstones, then there's a decent chance they, too, can absorb magic (at least, when not shattered like the one found in S1).

There's really no reason to think "the magic went to Cantha!" over "the magic was absorbed by the four Bloodstones!" until we check them, and even then there's the entire possibility of the largos nation having something, or the krait homelands having something. Or even the Battle Isles if they didn't remain submerged after Zhaitan's tidal wave.

 

And even then, while it went south from Anvil Rock, there's no solid evidence that it didn't angle at some point, as the ley-lines are very well versed at doing. And even then, no evidence the magic didn't simply disperse over the long, lengthy distance (if Jormag couldn't get a fair share of Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic to evolve a decent amount of minions in S3, why would the magic remain solid enough to reach Cantha which is at least 3x the distance?).

 

It seems from the latest stream that Cantha is re-opening its borders, and this is utterly unrelated to the events of Dragonstorm and Taimi dialogues (so far), which seems that it's just a wild guess of "well, we can go there now might as well check it out" instead of any actual deduction that the magic flowed to Cantha.

Ultimately, despite a promise from ANet that there would be a story update between Champions part 4 and EoD launch that would create a solid bridge, instead of that we got simply more retcons and subtle hints.

The closest thing to a solid bridge to bring us to Cantha is "someone is ransacking labs studying the Elder Dragons". Which doesn't exactly declare "to Cantha!" in of itself.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

There's really no reason to think "the magic went to Cantha!" over "the magic was absorbed by the four Bloodstones!" until we check them, and even then there's the entire possibility of the largos nation having something, or the krait homelands having something. Or even the Battle Isles if they didn't remain submerged after Zhaitan's tidal wave.

Except we have been explicitly told in the past that the magic released by an Elder Dragon's death inherently seeks out other Elder Dragons to be absorbed by them. Which is why Kralk has various magics in him despite, you know, not being around Zhaitan or Mordrmeoth when they died, and despite various things like Bloodstones being closer to those dragons then Kralk was.

Raw dragon magic(which we have been told is different then other magic) naturally seeks out other dragons. The bloodstones and such have only been confirmed to absorb/hold natural ley magic.

Also, Taimi's EoTN dialogue that was updated with the "Return To Champions" achievement

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi#Research_in_the_Eye_of_the_North

Quote

Player: Any update on the flow of magic from the dragons' deaths?

Taimi: Directionally, it went south. The distance is unexpectedly far, so it'll take longer to triangulate. But we're getting closer to knowing.

And its just common sense narrative development.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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15 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except we have been explicitly told in the past that the magic released by an Elder Dragon's death inherently seeks out other Elder Dragons to be absorbed by them. Which is why Kralk has various magics in him despite, you know, not being around Zhaitan or Mordrmeoth when they died, and despite various things like Bloodstones being closer to those dragons then Kralk was.

Raw dragon magic(which we have been told is different then other magic) naturally seeks out other dragons. The bloodstones and such have only been confirmed to absorb/hold natural ley magic.

That's actually false. Replay Rising Flames and Transfer Chaser side story achievements.

Taimi: According to what I documented, Primordus is awake—you know this. But here's the more part...
Taimi: It's moved! Tunneled its way down to the Fire Islands, south of Maguuma.
Rytlock Brimstone: If we know where it is now, let's just go knock on its door and give it a welcome basket.
<Character name>: Why did it move?
Taimi: I posit Mordremoth's death and the subsequent magic release must have jump-started Primordus. And then, with a lot of energy pooling in the south...
Taimi: What better place to feed?
 
 
I used my magic to track a disturbance from here to the coast. Decided it was an Elder Dragon, moving deep down.
But you were ignored?
Those Priory page-counters! "You said the dragon was west of Orr, but we found destroyers in Ember Bay, which is SOUTHwest of Orr."
Sometimes magic is imprecise.
Ah, but the next thing you know, they're saying a dragon turned up after all, right where I said it would.

Primordus moved to the magic, which had balled up in a ley-line nexus at the Ring of Fire, not the other way around. Also remember in A Crack in the Ice, Jormag showed little ability in Plant and Death magic, and Taimi suggested it was due to distance. This would explain why Kralkatorrik shows a lot more use of death magic than plant magic as Mordremoth was much further away from Kralkatorrik's position on its death.

Taimi: If I were a supposing kind of genius—which I am—I'd suppose Primordus must have soaked up more Mordremoth energy.
Taimi: Maybe proximity matters, and since Jormag's so far away, it didn't receive as much Mordy juice.
<Character name>: Makes sense. That would explain why I'm not seeing any altered ones yet. I'll keep looking thought.

And as Out of the Shadows established via the Conspiracy of Dunces journals, both Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's deaths enhanced the Maguuma Bloodstone.

Progress is slow. My research on the harvested bloodstone shards has nearly stalled completely. The fragments refuse all attempts to extract their magic in an efficient manner. Slow-diffusing magic will not serve our purposes. Unseen ones, guide my thoughts that i might find the answer! The bloodstone itself continues to grow. Over the past few days, hundreds of new crystals have appeared in the clearing surrounding the stone. This phenomenon coincided with Zhaitan's death just days ago, and I would be foolish to assume the events were unrelated. It's amazing to think the stone could be affected from as far away as Orr!

[...]

Another dragon felled, and the stone reacted far more than when Zhaitan died. We have now harvested enough magic to activate the Unseen One's ancient guardians. While they are bound to large pillars and thus lack the mobility of jade constructs, their strength is far greater. They will make excellent defenders for our more critical locations.

Mordremoth's magic was also ultimately the cause of the Conservation of Magic and Anomalous Occurrences side story events, alongside the Maguuma Bloodstone's explosion in the later, which Taimi had indirectly commented upon when she discovered that "killing more Elder Dragons is bad".

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...
Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?
Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

So no, the magic from dead dragons did not inherently seek out other Elder Dragons while skipping everything else. And if the Maguuma Bloodstone was affected by Zhaitan's death, there's a strong chance that the other two closer Bloodstones in the Ring of Fire and Shiverpeaks were also affected by Zhaitan's death (and same for them being affected by Mordremoth's deaths).

Which stands to reason that at the very least the Shiverpeak Bloodstone should have been affected by the events of Dragonstorm, unless whatever drew the magic could somehow keep that magic without spreading out or sitting in locations.

Quote

And its just common sense narrative development.

Not really. It's only common sense because we know from a doylist perspective that we're going to Cantha.

From a watsonian perspective, it makes sense to go to the deep sea dragon, which all in-game lore hints is in the Unending Ocean (despite Taimi's peculiar claim).

If we had no indication of where End of Dragons took place, and only had a name and logo, most people would probably be thinking Unending Ocean, not Cantha. Of course, with the large amount of people who had been thinking the DSD was in the Jade Sea despite no implication of such (and it not making sense given krait, quaggan, karka, and largos lore), the playerbase would probably be more-or-less equally split between the two.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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15 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except we have been explicitly told in the past that the magic released by an Elder Dragon's death inherently seeks out other Elder Dragons to be absorbed by them. Which is why Kralk has various magics in him despite, you know, not being around Zhaitan or Mordrmeoth when they died, and despite various things like Bloodstones being closer to those dragons then Kralk was.

Raw dragon magic(which we have been told is different then other magic) naturally seeks out other dragons. The bloodstones and such have only been confirmed to absorb/hold natural ley magic.

Also, Taimi's EoTN dialogue that was updated with the "Return To Champions" achievement

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi#Research_in_the_Eye_of_the_North

And its just common sense narrative development.

Konig does make a point that proximity does matter. He mentioned Primordius and the story of Ember Bay, how he came down all that way in order to consume the magic of Mordremoth and Zhaitan. Jormag was shown to have gotten a pitiful amount of said magic, barely enough for a single viable minion while Primordius has vine touched and death touched minions all over the place. As for Krakkatorrik, we do have to remember that up until Living World Season 4 he is still not shown to have any death or plant magic imbued in his minions. It isn't until he consumes Balthazar's magic that he suddenly starts producing said powers. And Balthazar's magic came from the Bloodstone which we are fairly certain did take in a decent share of dragon magic based on the way Mordremoth's magic spread upon his death.

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1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That's actually false. Replay Rising Flames and Transfer Chaser side story achievements.

Primordus moved to the magic, which had balled up in a ley-line nexus at the Ring of Fire, not the other way around. Also remember in A Crack in the Ice, Jormag showed little ability in Plant and Death magic, and Taimi suggested it was due to distance. This would explain why Kralkatorrik shows a lot more use of death magic than plant magic as Mordremoth was much further away from Kralkatorrik's position on its death.

I think you should probably re-read the very dialogue you posted, because it directly counters your claim.

As Taimi says, and you directly quoted

Quote

Taimi: I posit Mordremoth's death and the subsequent magic release must have jump-started Primordus. And then, with a lot of energy pooling in the south...

Mordremoth died, its energy got released, it went to Primordus to jump start him, then Primordus moved south to suck up the ley energy pooling in the south. I.E. the dragon energy bypassed all the Bloodstones, went to Primordus, and the other Elder Dragons, then he went south.

Which we know also happened to Kralkatorrik

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Path_of_Fire—Road_to_the_Desert

Quote

Heroes kill the Jungle Elder Dragon Mordremoth in the distant Maguuma Jungle. After absorbing a portion of the magic released by Mordremoth’s demise, Kralkatorrik rises from its lair in the Crystal Desert and heads south, toward the more populated areas of the Elonian region.

Mordremoth's magic bypassed the two Bloodstones(one in the Magumma and the other near Orr), which were far closer to it, to beam over to Kralk.

Yes, distance affects how much of said magic goes to which Elder Dragon(which was never debated in the first place). Primordus got the lion's share since it was the closest, but the rest of it beamed off to Aurene, Jormag, Kralk, and presumably Bubbles, bypassing several major magic absorbers in the process. But guess what, all the other Elder Dragons are dead, so theres only two people it can rush off to. One being Aurene, who is still new, and unable to absorb that much magic... and Bubbles in the far south.

Quote

And as Out of the Shadows established via the Conspiracy of Dunces journals, both Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's deaths enhanced the Maguuma Bloodstone.

Mordremoth's magic was also ultimately the cause of the Conservation of Magic and Anomalous Occurrences side story events, alongside the Maguuma Bloodstone's explosion in the later, which Taimi had indirectly commented upon when she discovered that "killing more Elder Dragons is bad".

So no, the magic from dead dragons did not inherently seek out other Elder Dragons while skipping everything else. And if the Maguuma Bloodstone was affected by Zhaitan's death, there's a strong chance that the other two closer Bloodstones in the Ring of Fire and Shiverpeaks were also affected by Zhaitan's death (and same for them being affected by Mordremoth's deaths).

Which stands to reason that at the very least the Shiverpeak Bloodstone should have been affected by the events of Dragonstorm, unless whatever drew the magic could somehow keep that magic without spreading out or sitting in locations.

Well no.

The death of Elder Dragons messes with the environment because they are no longer around to suck up ley magic, causing a build up of ley magic, which throws the world out of whack because it can't handle that much ley magic in the environment. We see this in the unbound magic in LWS3, the volatile magic in LWS4, the ley infused bounties in LWS4, the Ley-Line Anomalies, and the ley-line coalescence, from the conservation of Magic, and Anomalous Occurrences, achievement chains.

But you know what all of that is? Not dragon magic, which the game has repeatedly stated to be different from ley magic, and god magic. They aren't dragon energy infused bounties, or dragon anomalies, or dragon energy coalescences, they are ley energy based. Which is a different thing entirely. The bloodstone, and all these other events, would be affected by an Elder Dragon's death because they are no longer around to suck up the ley energy. But they aren't absorbing the dragon magic, they are absorbing the ley magic.

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Not really. It's only common sense because we know from a doylist perspective that we're going to Cantha.

From a watsonian perspective, it makes sense to go to the deep sea dragon, which all in-game lore hints is in the Unending Ocean (despite Taimi's peculiar claim).

If we had no indication of where End of Dragons took place, and only had a name and logo, most people would probably be thinking Unending Ocean, not Cantha. Of course, with the large amount of people who had been thinking the DSD was in the Jade Sea despite no implication of such (and it not making sense given krait, quaggan, karka, and largos lore), the playerbase would probably be more-or-less equally split between the two.

Its in the Unending Ocean near Cantha, hence it attack on Canthan and Elonian ships(as has been repeatedly stated by several sources both in and out of game), but lack of presence in Tyira, and the waterways leading from Amnoon to Istan(suggesting its in the ocean somewhere in-between Elona and Cantha).

I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was in the triangular area between Istan, Cantha, and where the Battle Isles were.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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