If catalyst tuning stays as is, what's the purpose of weaver?

[Zenith.7301]

One spec is not only a high octane DPS, but has significant support aspects available, while the other is nothing more than a pure dedicated DPS spec tied to a melee range weapon. Yet in this bizarro world, the spec that should be serving the role of a Quickbrand or a Quickness scrapper is both the DPS beast and the boon support spec while weaver is...a completely irrelevant spec by virtue of being undertuned.

 

You could buff weaver if you wanted, but it would change nothing. Catalyst has utility and range flexibility, weaver doesn't. Unless weaver has good DPS margin over Catalyst, it will never be picked as a spec.

 

You should be balancing Catalyst DPS around 33-34k and pushing mainhand power sword weaver to be 38-40k DPS.

 

Ele is in need of both a competitive dedicated DPS spec and a support/DPS hybrid spec.

 

You can then revise Tempest to be a competitive boon support spec if you give it access to barrier, stability, resolution, might, fury, and either alacrity or quickness to be an alternative to HB.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Daddy.8125]

To remind Weaver it was Never good i guess

Catalyst i guess is suspose to Just replace it :P, but on the bright side..EoD is looking good for the ele

[Flori.2194]

well, catalyst won't replace tempest or weaver in pvp or wvw because it's dogshit in competitive game modes...

[Ace.1784]

Catalyst's damage is likely to get nerf. Either that or the boon uptime is getting reduced.

[ClickToKill.8473]

I believe Catalyst competes more with Tempest than Weaver, because Weaver is just way better at dueling. 

[Jski.6180]

Well all of the ele elite spec fill the same roll they are all cele classes that can be pushed to play all ways base off there gear and atument lines taken. That why anet mostly failed at ele over all and often they only made 3 more core eles out of its elite spec but with varying power creep.

Weaver is a bit more tankly, Tempest has a bit more aoe (wish it still had 10 targets in wvw), and Cata has more boons.

Think of ele less about healing vs dps and more about what one elite spec can do that the others cant. Weaver has barrier and self support as well as more vit, Tempest has 10 target skills, and Cata has boons that tempest nor weaver have. Its not "Good" and it needs to be fixed but that is the differences between the elite specs on ele.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Jski.6180

[Infusion.7149]

It's naive to think orb damage is staying in its current state , this is a first revision of the hammer orbs after all. In PVP/WVW the jade sphere does 0.01 power coefficient so I would not be surprised if that is merged between modes as well : it never was intended as a damage source  only a field.

In theory catalyst is quickness/might boon support (so you could run it with say mechanist / specter / alac rev / alac mirage), weaver is full DPS , tempest is support (because even as DPS you can rebound , heal allies with warhorn, increase boon uptime, and stack might with 0 boon duration).

Edited December 1, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Shiyo.3578]

12 hours ago, Flori.2194 said:

well, catalyst won't replace tempest or weaver in pvp or wvw because it's dogshit in competitive game modes...

All of ele is since PoF release with random meta specs that get phased out or nerfed after a bit. Hasn't been a reliable class in pvp since PoF.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

I really gotta rebind f5. I'm always trying to hit it and always missing with my fingers 😅

[Bakeneko.5826]

On 12/1/2021 at 6:15 AM, Zenith.7301 said:

One spec is not only a high octane DPS, but has significant support aspects available, while the other is nothing more than a pure dedicated DPS spec tied to a melee range weapon. Yet in this bizarro world, the spec that should be serving the role of a Quickbrand or a Quickness scrapper is both the DPS beast and the boon support spec while weaver is...a completely irrelevant spec by virtue of being undertuned.

 

You could buff weaver if you wanted, but it would change nothing. Catalyst has utility and range flexibility, weaver doesn't. Unless weaver has good DPS margin over Catalyst, it will never be picked as a spec.

 

You should be balancing Catalyst DPS around 33-34k and pushing mainhand power sword weaver to be 38-40k DPS.

 

Ele is in need of both a competitive dedicated DPS spec and a support/DPS hybrid spec.

 

You can then revise Tempest to be a competitive boon support spec if you give it access to barrier, stability, resolution, might, fury, and either alacrity or quickness to be an alternative to HB.

Ele lacks anything useful to be support as tempest, and there are better boonbots than catalyst - ele is good for dmg and burst heal on couple raid encounters, or ambulance carry for noob in raids in general as staff healer

[Zenith.7301]

5 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Ele lacks anything useful to be support as tempest, and there are better boonbots than catalyst - ele is good for dmg and burst heal on couple raid encounters, or ambulance carry for noob in raids in general as staff healer

 

 

Catalyst is a perfectly viable alternative to Quickness scrapper, and the only reason firebrand dominates is because Firebrand is grossly overpowered and was given access to every boon but alacrity on top of reflects, and for some reason guardian has a monopoly on stability, aegis, and resolution.

[Bakeneko.5826]

On 12/2/2021 at 8:28 PM, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Catalyst is a perfectly viable alternative to Quickness scrapper, and the only reason firebrand dominates is because Firebrand is grossly overpowered and was given access to every boon but alacrity on top of reflects, and for some reason guardian has a monopoly on stability, aegis, and resolution.

So you said same thing, as I did... "there are better boonbots than catalyst " Good job?

[EpicName.4523]

The real question is: What is the purpose of Catalyst if we already have Weaver?

 

Catalyst was trash and remains so to this day. Just because they turned up the damage numbers on a golem doesn't make it good and more importantly - FUN. 

[Arheundel.6451]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:27 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

To remind Weaver it was Never good i guess

Catalyst i guess is suspose to Just replace it :P, but on the bright side..EoD is looking good for the ele

You are actually 100% correct...they know they messed up with weaver, creating an overly complicated mess...so they went back to more simplistic design, a good start I guess.......maybe by expansion 7 eles will get an actual ranged elite..fingers crossed

[Arheundel.6451]

On 12/1/2021 at 3:35 PM, Vinteros Asteano.1209 said:

Catalyst's damage is likely to get nerf. Either that or the boon uptime is getting reduced.

You would guess at this time, the entire ele community should well know that any ele "DPSSS BENCHMARKKKKK" get oblitared by nerfs because...we can't have a class with hard rotations, low or no sustain to reach that dmg..it sends a wrong message to those wishing to buy GW2. 

 

"To be the best in anything in GW2..we don't want you to put effort" and that's why they promote things like dragonhunter, scourges, reapers....press 2 buttons and do what ele do with 20 button press...while having 1/5 of the sustain.

[Daddy.8125]

25 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

You would guess at this time, the entire ele community should well know that any ele "DPSSS BENCHMARKKKKK" get oblitared by nerfs because...we can't have a class with hard rotations, low or no sustain to reach that dmg..it sends a wrong message to those wishing to buy GW2. 

 

"To be the best in anything in GW2..we don't want you to put effort" and that's why they promote things like dragonhunter, scourges, reapers....press 2 buttons and do what ele do with 20 button press...while having 1/5 of the sustain.

As far as I'm aware catalyst was doing 55k DPS so I'd imagine it will be brought down abit as I don't think they're intending the new speccs to do that sorta damage 😂 be one Hella a power creep to catch others uptoo. 

I don't think they will overnerf it however. It would suprise me if Anet didn't try make up for the fact ele has had almost 0 representation for a entire expansion almost. 

While I know catalyst isn't entirely what the community wanted, at the same time I think it will be decent. It's boon uptime and stuff seems pretty reasonable compared to the other options

Id prefer staff and sceptar get a rework then a ranged elite imho. The problem with ranged in this game is gw2 PvE just does terrible at ranged combat, your forced to clump which puts you in melee even if you wield a 1200 ranged weapon. 

Where ranged does have some good use in open world / PvP builds and WvWvW which is why I'd like to see something accessible by all the speccs be made instead of the new elite used to exclusively bring that. 

To the whole reason of balancing differences and disparities. I'd likely say it's more down to popularity, Guardian and necromancer have always been super popular proffessions realistically and generally you see throughout mmorpgs the Devs target what they know will hit the majority. 

Saying this catalysts position looks alot better then willbender as of current 😂 so maybe this is about to take a turn 

Vindicator untamed and catalyst I'd say are prolly shaping up the best overall so far providing they keep on track and get them finished to the same quality we saw in beta 4. 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Infusion.7149]

To put some reality into this thread...
If catalyst has power damage removed completely from hammer 3 orbs then it is 35-36K regardless of hitbox. If you run quickness with Sphere Specialist it will be ~32K.

While weaver could probably use a damage bump/restoration , claiming catalyst is going to stay 55K even on large hitbox after Bladesworn and Harbinger were both nerfed from 45K+ (even Virtuoso was nerfed from 42K) is quite naive.

 

Spoiler

Large hitbox, 55K : hammer 3 orbs count for ~ 14K power damage ~25% meaning ~41K with no power damage on orbs (bleeding only counts for 900DPS as well)

Small hitbox 50.5K : hammer 3 orbs count for ~14K of power damage or about 28% meaning it's ~36K with no power damage on orbs (bleeding only counts for 600 DPS as well)

Small hitbox outside golem so orb doesn't hit much,  42.3K : hammer 3 orbs count for ~6.9K power damage around 16% meaning ~35.4K with no power damage on orbs (bleeding only counted for ~500DPS)

Standard golem permaquickness,  43.7K : hammer 3 orbs count for ~11.5K power damage or around 32K not counting hammer orbs running Sphere Specialist for quickness uptime

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Infusion.7149
add numbers breakdown

[Daddy.8125]

34 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

To put some reality into this thread...
If catalyst has power damage removed completely from hammer 3 orbs then it is 35-36K regardless of hitbox. If you run quickness with Sphere Specialist it will be ~32K.

While weaver could probably use a damage bump/restoration , claiming catalyst is going to stay 55K even on large hitbox after Bladesworn and Harbinger were both nerfed from 45K+ (even Virtuoso was nerfed from 42K) is quite naive.

tbh virts nerfs arent really known to exactly why tho... it was equal to Chrono DPS, so it seems like if anything that just removed virts PvE Role lol. while i agree as i said i doubt your gonna see catas Damage untouched. i think catas gonna be in a better state then people expect after Weaver

It wouldnt suprise me if they make Catalyst better then Weaver because of the problems surrounding weaver. Anet seem to like making GW2 more and more accessible and Weavers considered Very hard to play for quite alot of the community. so the idea they may just ride over Weaver to make Elementalist percieved easier to play wouldnt suprise me in the slightest.

it isnt really the first time we've seen a proffession given a Easierr to play Elite specc thats kinda just replaced the prior one realistically.

I say holosmith defintly made engineer more popular as a example, i think catalysts gonna be decent PvE Wise.. im unsure to exactly where it'll land PvP Wise, but i hope it gets to a Successful Place, the concept of D/D Returning is rly cool.

[Infusion.7149]

14 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

tbh virts nerfs arent really known to exactly why tho... it was equal to Chrono DPS, so it seems like if anything that just removed virts PvE Role lol. while i agree as i said i doubt your gonna see catas Damage untouched. i think catas gonna be in a better state then people expect after Weaver

It wouldnt suprise me if they make Catalyst better then Weaver because of the problems surrounding weaver. Anet seem to like making GW2 more and more accessible and Weavers considered Very hard to play for quite alot of the community. so the idea they may just ride over Weaver to make Elementalist percieved easier to play wouldnt suprise me in the slightest.

it isnt really the first time we've seen a proffession given a Easierr to play Elite specc thats kinda just replaced the prior one realistically.

I say holosmith defintly made engineer more popular as a example, i think catalysts gonna be decent PvE Wise.. im unsure to exactly where it'll land PvP Wise, but i hope it gets to a Successful Place, the concept of D/D Returning is rly cool.

Chrono was 39K with danger time and 36K or so without dT.
Virtuoso was 42K last beta , 37-38K or so this one.

[Daddy.8125]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

Chrono was 39K with danger time and 36K or so without dT.
Virtuoso was 42K last beta , 37-38K or so this one.

ah so nerfs werent as severe as Some  were stating. People were saying it was doing 34k DPS after nerfs.

Either way, i'd likely argue virtuoso should do more DPS Then chrono. given its clearly susposed to be a Pure DPS Glass cannon realistically.

wasnt virts DPS on last beta tested against Large golem though?.. or its DPS shown to be the same on a Small aswell.. i've only found listing to its Large golem DPS.

[Infusion.7149]

5 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

ah so nerfs werent as severe as Some  were stating. People were saying it was doing 34k DPS after nerfs.

Either way, i'd likely argue virtuoso should do more DPS Then chrono. given its clearly susposed to be a Pure DPS Glass cannon realistically.

wasnt virts DPS on last beta tested against Large golem though?.. or its DPS shown to be the same on a Small aswell.. i've only found listing to its Large golem DPS.

This is why it's important to be quantitative rather than qualitative when talking about numbers.

edit: also see the other November 30 bench

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Infusion.7149
include 39k Nov bench

[Daddy.8125]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

This is why it's important to be quantitative rather than qualitative when talking about numbers.

ah weird Snowcrows Chose to only list the Large golem benchmark lol..

 

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

ah weird Snowcrows Chose to only list the Large golem benchmark lol..

 

Snowcrows also only listed 5 page FB for the longest time while LN had it for close to a year. If you're only looking on snowcrows you'd think scourge is 36K DPS a few months ago but it's 37.4K on nightmare rune as of June.

Ele-specific snowcrows doesn't have the ranged scepter+focus condi weaver at 39K when multiple benchmarkers have it at 38K-39.2K. Hybrid condi weaver with starcake has been pushed to 39.8K but they only list ~38.5K. Condi sword has been benchmarked 40K but it's listed as 38.5K on snowcrows.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Daddy.8125]

19 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Snowcrows also only listed 5 page FB for the longest time while LN had it for close to a year. If you're only looking on snowcrows you'd think scourge is 36K DPS a few months ago but it's 37.4K on nightmare rune as of June.

Ele-specific snowcrows doesn't have the ranged scepter+focus condi weaver at 39K when multiple benchmarkers have it at 38K-39.2K. Hybrid condi weaver with starcake has been pushed to 39.8K but they only list ~38.5K. Condi sword has been benchmarked 40K but it's listed as 38.5K on snowcrows.

tbh i knew scourge was higher as i see so many playing it, Ele was always one I see alot less of as we dont have many known Elementalists about. i think grimjack and blam are the only 2 i atleast know of.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I always thought the weaver's purpose was to be evasive and mobile.  Granted, a lot of its defensive abilities have been nerfed significantly, it is still meant to spam a lot of evades while generating plenty of self-barrier.