Can someone explain to me why one of the new human female hairstyles is a historical hairstyle for MEN?

[moxxi.1902]

First things first and I want to say I'm all for inclusivity. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that. But it is something I want to bring more attention to cause quite frankly it's an embarassing oversight and quite frankly shows the lack of respect towards asian (or more specifically korean) culture.

 

I'm talking about the human female hairstyle with topknot and a headband. This one.
The hairstyle is actually a historical korean hairstyle, worn by men, called sangtu. The headband is called manggeon and is exclusively worn by men, mostly used to keep sangtu, as well as possible headgear (such as gat), in place. Here is a great example illustration about how the hairstyle worked and how it was used under different headgear!
It was considered a bad thing to cut your hair, so men would tie up theirs. Women mostly braided theirs. Sangtu was specifically worn by men after marriage or coming-of-age - it was the whole symbolism to growing into a man from a boy. The only situation a woman would wear a topknot with manggeon would be if she was dressing up as a man.

 

Details aside, even a brief research would've brought up the fact that only men wear this hairstyle. There are so many amazing historical asian hairstyles for women, so why are human females getting a one that is historically a male one? Why is it not an option for human males instead? Even if this was some weird attempt to be incredibly woke and unisex, why is it female only then?

Things like these might not matter to some people and lot of people will probably just go past it not caring, but for some of us it is part of the history and has meaning. It's just disrespectful. I love GW2 and it just makes me sad to see them put so little effort to this, especially after PoF where we got lots of fantastic looking options to have more varied looking characters from different cultures.

Also here are some great reads about the history of the topknot for anyone who is interested more about the subject.

 

EDIT// Because some people don't seem to understand, I just want to emphasize that I'm only trying to bring some light to the issue in hopes that Arena.net notices and can actually fix their error.

Edited December 1, 2021 by moxxi.1902

[AgentMoore.9453]

Honestly, my first thought was 'oh, that's the 3am jogging in yoga pants hairstyle'. I understand it was added with looks that are obviously meant to be Asian-inspired, but after EoD, they're just going to be default character creation options and won't be limited to just Asian-inspired characters.

So, if the goal was cultural authenticity? Womp. The fact that it exists isn't terrible though; it's going to get mileage outside of Cantha.

[Debesyla.7102]

This is a videogame.

[moxxi.1902]

1 minute ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

Honestly, my first thought was 'oh, that's the 3am jogging in yoga pants hairstyle'. I understand it was added with looks that are obviously meant to be Asian-inspired, but after EoD, they're just going to be default character creation options and won't be limited to just Asian-inspired characters.

So, if the goal was cultural authenticity? Womp. The fact that it exists isn't terrible though; it's going to get mileage outside of Cantha.

If it was just a general "jogging in yoga pants hairstyle" it wouldn't be a problem - but it's not though. It is the sangtu hairstyle - the headband is identical and even has the buttons on right spots by the ears. It's accurate. A general headband with topknot wouldn't be an issue - but this isn't just general topknot with hairband hairstyle. That is the issue.

 

3 minutes ago, Debesyla.7102 said:

This is a videogame.

And? The reference taken is from real life. Cantha may not be real but the original source for these references are part of real life.

[AgentMoore.9453]

52 minutes ago, moxxi.1902 said:

the headband is identical and even has the buttons on right spots by the ears. It's accurate. A general headband with topknot wouldn't be an issue - but this isn't just general topknot with hairband hairstyle. That is the issue.

Ah, I see. If it's referencing a specific cultural aesthetic (not just a generic headband as you've pointed out) yet not adhering to the manner in which that aesthetic was used, I understand your position a bit more. I doubt it was done for inclusivity or trend, but I can see why it would be annoying for them to get everything right except allowing it to be worn by the gender that typically wears it in real life. Sure, Cantha's not real, but the custom they're emulating is.

An easy fix for this would simply be to allow both genders to wear it (since the work for female is already done). There are already calls for gender-free hairstyle selection besides just cultural reasons, so I can't imagine that solution would generate any problems. What do you think?

[BlueJin.4127]

My guess is that the artists involved had no idea since they're not familiar with foreign cultures and styles. There's no way people can know everything, especially about foreign countries, so all we can do is tell Anet about these errors and hope these get fixed soon.

 

EDIT: With the added info that this hairstyle is actually available for both genders, I personally don’t think this is an issue, any more. Giving the hairstyle to the wrong gender may be considered insensitive to a culture, but giving it to both genders for gameplay reasons seems fine in a game that isn’t about historical accuracy.

Edited December 1, 2021 by BlueJin.4127

[Ashantara.8731]

2 hours ago, moxxi.1902 said:

and quite frankly shows the lack of respect towards asian (or more specifically korean) culture.

1. This isn't Asia, it's Cantha, located in a fantasy world called Tyria. That's the beauty of fantasy worlds: you aren't limited to cultural dictates from Earth history. 😉

2. Quite a few options have been added recently to allow people to create non-binary characters. I find that okay. We are no longer living in a culture where people are trapped in mindsets of what's "typically male" and "typically female" (or shouldn't be, at least - your post proves that we are not there yet).

Edited December 1, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Its also REALLY lazy to just re-use the male hairstyle for females instead of creating a unique one for human females.

[Ashantara.8731]

13 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Its also REALLY lazy to just re-use the male hairstyle for females instead of creating a unique one for human females.

That is true.😄

I am in general a bit disappointed with the small amount of new options we got - I hope there will be more with the release of EoD. I also don't understand why 5 out of the 6 new male human faces have to have such narrow space between the eyes and crossed-eyed irises.

[moxxi.1902]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

1. This isn't Asia, it's Cantha, located in a fantasy world called Tyria. That's the beauty of fantasy worlds: you aren't limited to cultural dictates from Earth history. 😉

2. Quite a few options have been added recently to allow people to create non-binary characters. I find that okay. We are no longer living in a culture where people are trapped in mindsets of what's "typically male" and "typically female" (or shouldn't be, at least - your post proves that we are not there yet).

Evidently you didn't even read the whole post. Like I said in it, even if this was some weak attempt towards more unisex character options, the fact that it is only available for female characters kinad proves that if anything this is just a result of their ignorance on the subject. If it was about unisex characters, it should be availvable for both.

And quite honestly, every answer that says "but this is in Tyria, not real life" is just a lazy excuse to continue being ignorant. As I mentioned in one of the previous replies, as long as the source material and reference comes from real life, it does matter and is problematic. Alas, why I wanted to bring the attention to it.

[MikeG.6389]

2 hours ago, moxxi.1902 said:

And? The reference taken is from real life. Cantha may not be real but the original source for these references are part of real life.

It's an interesting counter-point to the thread about the immersion breaking of the teapot skin: some things shouldn't be like they are in real life, like the teapot, other things should follow facts strictly, like historical hairstyles... How do we decide what to adapt "as is" and what we can take liberties with?

[moxxi.1902]

5 minutes ago, MikeG.6389 said:

It's an interesting counter-point to the thread about the immersion breaking of the teapot skin: some things shouldn't be like they are in real life, like the teapot, other things should follow facts strictly, like historical hairstyles... How do we decide what to adapt "as is" and what we can take liberties with?

You're trying way too hard to be way too deep. Isn't usually the rule of thumb on things like these a simple what actually has a significant cultural meaning and what doesn't?

[MikeG.6389]

Just now, moxxi.1902 said:

You're trying way too hard to be way too deep. Isn't usually the rule of thumb on things like these a simple what actually has a significant cultural meaning and what doesn't?

And who decides what has and doesn't have cultural meaning?

[kettering.6823]

I won't disagree with your point, but I'd just like to point out that human males do have the same hair style. It seems they just imported it for both genders. 

[moxxi.1902]

2 minutes ago, kettering.6823 said:

I won't disagree with your point, but I'd just like to point out that human males do have the same hair style. It seems they just imported it for both genders. 

Ah, thank you , I somehow must've missed it! I stand corrected in that sense then.
Maybe it really was then a weak attempt at making it unisex? A really weird choice and still culturally kinda insensitive but hey, who knows.

[Raknar.4735]

4 hours ago, Debesyla.7102 said:

This is a videogame.

This is pretty much it.
Maybe someone likes that hairstyle on their female toon, even if it historically has been only used by men in the real world. The more variety is allowed in customization, the better in my opinion.

Videogames get things wrong. I mean, how often have you seen the terminology of Alpha-Wolves used in games to determine the strongest wolf in a pack, when that isn‘t a thing for real life wolfpacks?
Same thing here with the hair. But if the mistake nets us more customization, I‘ll just see it as a net positive.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Raknar.4735

[Fueki.4753]

It's possible that Arenanet simply didn't care what gender that haircut historically belonged to.

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Zebulous.2934]

Actually, why don't we have a personal story start with the classic "Woman impersonates young man, in order to enlist in army, to go find her Lover who is MIA?"  That is a classic fantasy trope and would have women sporting male hairstyles.  I mean yeah, we have go find your sister who is MIA, but that isn't as romantic nor does it require a disguise.

(nvm, I just remembered the humans in this world display a great deal of gender equality. In Tyria women can enlist to join the army regularly, unlike historical Earth.)  Actually it is a bit jarring how progressive and inclusive the cultures in this game are, it sidesteps a great many points of conflict that I would expect to encounter.  It's like bracing yourself for a hit but the hit never comes. It is a bit disappointing because you got all prepared and you were gonna handle it like a pro. 
anyway, so should this hairstyle should be placed on the level of native American Feather-War-Bonnets? is the hairband sacred like the War Bonnet, or was it just a convenient way to display your house crest while keeping hair out of your eyes?

More long flowing locks are also needed for the flamboyant devil-may-care male characters.

[Stelawrat.6589]

3 hours ago, BlueJin.4127 said:

My guess is that the artists involved had no idea since they're not familiar with foreign cultures and styles. There's no way people can know everything, especially about foreign countries, so all we can do is tell Anet about these errors and hope these get fixed soon.

I'd like to think this as well except that, according to the OP, "It is the sangtu hairstyle - the headband is identical and even has the buttons on right spots by the ears. It's accurate."

I imagine that the artist did do some research, adopted the exact appearance of this male hairstyle & by mistake, attributed it to females. 

I know that it's just a game, but if I had an Asian background, specifically if I was Korean, while I probably wouldn't be offended, I would still wonder wth? If I was a Korean man, then it would definitely irk me, given that the style isn't also available for use with male characters.

[Raknar.4735]

4 minutes ago, Stelawrat.6589 said:

I know that it's just a game, but if I had an Asian background, specifically if I was Korean, while I probably wouldn't be offended, I would still wonder wth? If I was a Korean man, then it would definitely irk me, given that the style isn't also available for use with male characters.

Small correction: it is available for male characters. OP just didn‘t look good enough for it (3rd one):

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Human_male_hair_styles_3.jpg

[Stelawrat.6589]

1 hour ago, kettering.6823 said:

I won't disagree with your point, but I'd just like to point out that human males do have the same hair style. It seems they just imported it for both genders. 

 

8 minutes ago, Stelawrat.6589 said:

I'd like to think this as well except that, according to the OP, "It is the sangtu hairstyle - the headband is identical and even has the buttons on right spots by the ears. It's accurate."

I imagine that the artist did do some research, adopted the exact appearance of this male hairstyle & by mistake, attributed it to females. 

I know that it's just a game, but if I had an Asian background, specifically if I was Korean, while I probably wouldn't be offended, I would still wonder wth? If I was a Korean man, then it would definitely irk me, given that the style isn't also available for use with male characters.

Okay, well just disregard my post then, as it seems all is well with the world now, at least in game... 

That'll teach me to read the whole thread through before replying. 😳

Edited December 1, 2021 by Stelawrat.6589

[The Greyhawk.9107]

44 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

More long flowing locks are also needed for the flamboyant devil-may-care male characters.

I want more long flowing hair for my female characters, the majority of it is either cut short or done up to be short.  There's like one really long hair style for human females but it doesn't have bangs.

[kharmin.7683]

26 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I want more long flowing hair for my female characters, the majority of it is either cut short or done up to be short.  There's like one really long hair style for human females but it doesn't have bangs.

Me, too, but I suppose Anet doesn't want to do more of these and get a bunch of complaints about clipping issues, especially after the implementation of capes.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

I spy with my little eye, Great Collapse 2.0

[robertthebard.8150]

1 hour ago, BlueJin.4127 said:

Talking about historical accuracy is now considered angry? You’re really setting the bar low.

Hmm, interesting.  Is GW set in our future, or another reality altogether?  If it's not set in our future, then "historical accuracy" does not apply.  In order for that to be relevant, it would have to be historically accurate to GW, not Earth.  Reading through the thread, I hadn't planned to respond because I asked myself a couple of questions:

1.  Does it need to be said?

2.  Does it need to be said by me?

I'm not going to go off the rails looking for a reason to be offended by either a hairstyle in a video game, or someone taking offense to it w/out having all the pertinent information, which is what happened here.  I am, however, curious about how "historical accuracy" applies to a fictional world?