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Can someone explain to me why one of the new human female hairstyles is a historical hairstyle for MEN?


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On 12/1/2021 at 1:57 PM, Raknar.4735 said:

I mean, how often have you seen the terminology of Alpha-Wolves used in games to determine the strongest wolf in a pack, when that isn‘t a thing for real life wolfpacks?
Same thing here with the hair. But if the mistake nets us more customization, I‘ll just see it as a net positive.

Wolves don't get offended if they're misrepresented. But humans do.

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First things first and I want to say I'm all for inclusivity. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that. But it is something I want to bring more attention to cause quite frankly it's an embaras

1. This isn't Asia, it's Cantha, located in a fantasy world called Tyria. That's the beauty of fantasy worlds: you aren't limited to cultural dictates from Earth history. 😉 2. Quite a few options

This is a videogame.

I totally agree with you, @moxxi.1902. It's super obvious that ArenaNet gets inspiration from real-life cultures, and Cantha is heavily inspired by Southeast Asian countries like Japan, China, Korea. The least they could do is be more careful when bringing those cultural elements to the game. No one would have been offended or at least negatively surprised if they had just done it right: give that hairstyle to males and a similar one to females. Unless they were going for a roleplay moment in which players create a Mulan-type of girl 😛 But jokes aside, being culturally appropriate matters. Some people will say "it's just a game" until it affects them personally. 

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On 12/1/2021 at 5:33 PM, moxxi.1902 said:

First things first and I want to say I'm all for inclusivity. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that. But it is something I want to bring more attention to cause quite frankly it's an embarassing oversight and quite frankly shows the lack of respect towards asian (or more specifically korean) culture.

They lack knowledge and research obviously to Asian culture. They think its just one same/similar culture. The truth is.... its not.
Even just one country in Asia have have enormous difference in cultures living in one single country.
 

 

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1 hour ago, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

No one would have been offended or at least negatively surprised if they had just done it right: give that hairstyle to males and a similar one to females. 

They did give the hairstyle to males. It has even been pointed out multiple times in this very thread. I guess wolves are just better than humans 😅.

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3 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

That makes no sense which isn't surprising coming from the source.

It does make sense.  There's two reasons why.  First is universal appeal:  A company will try to stay away from controversial topics, because they want to sell to all parties involved.  For example, when asked why he doesn't talk about politics, Michael Jordan (the spokesman for Nike at the time) said "Republicans buy shoes, too."  Second is incentives.  A company with bizarre politics has goals that exist outside of servicing you.  To paraphrase famous comic artist Ethan Van Sciver:" Once you hire a zealot, your company's goal is no longer to make widgets.  Your new goal is political activism, and you can only produce widgets so long as it is in service of that  activism."  In contrast, the greedy company is going to give you as good a product as they can for as cheap as they can, because that is the best way to ensure that they will make money.  As an example of this, here is a TED video talking about how illicit sellers on the dark web develop excellent customer service and cheap prices.  This is all done to stay competitive and ensure future sales.

When it comes to politics, the best thing for a company to do is to try and stay out of it.  Leave politics to off-hours, or else you'll end up creating inferior products and alienating  at least half of the potential customers.  

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1 hour ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

nobody cares lol. 

the world dont bring to a  end when cher used a native american male outfit showing lots of skin lolzzz.

 

 

WHO cares lmao.
Why do you think NU and XI were skipped and gave Omicron name instead.
They don't want the world to end.

Edited by Norbe.7630
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On 12/1/2021 at 2:01 AM, moxxi.1902 said:

If it was just a general "jogging in yoga pants hairstyle" it wouldn't be a problem - but it's not though. It is the sangtu hairstyle - the headband is identical and even has the buttons on right spots by the ears. It's accurate. A general headband with topknot wouldn't be an issue - but this isn't just general topknot with hairband hairstyle. That is the issue.

 

And? The reference taken is from real life. Cantha may not be real but the original source for these references are part of real life.

And katana's are represented inaccurately (by real world standards), and medieval style armor's are represented inaccurately (by real world standards).

 

It does not matter where the game, the individual artist, or whoever got the idea. They are using it in a fictional manner.

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6 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It does make sense. 

No, it really doesn't.  "I would rather have my corporations greedy than virtuous. It's more trustworthy," makes no sense.  Companies will do whatever is best for them to make a profit anyway, trustworthy or not.  

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16 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

What, the fact that the district did get destroyed, and actual dev statements are not enough proof for you?

according to wiki

" Shortly before release, developers were told to remove it, and no official reason has ever been given. Due to time constraints the district was replaced by the Great Collapse."

 

 

i did a search on old forum and find this quote from user Nick.6972

" this mix of styles received negative feedback from China and Korea, since those gaming markets traditionally prefer a uniform design"

 

ok   until here it all seem believable.   but then i did some further reading, and find this quote from game designer AnthonyOrdon

(https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/cutthroat/New-thing-in-Great-Collapse/page/1#post2473180)

 

"So, I’m not going to spoil anything but I’d like to take this opportunity to remind you guys that according to game lore, there was never a Canthan district. If you’ve done your research, you’ll know that the great collapse was formally an arts district."

 

"Just a final quick note, I’m certainly not denying that at one point a Canthan district was planned and partially implemented. But the actual lore of the district that the game shipped doesn’t support it very well right now."

 

 

from what i have read here it is more of a design choice.  

 

 

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I admit I’ve never heard of this Korean hairstyle and have no idea whether Koreans are upset by it being included in a video game and available to female characters. However this is the internet and a forum, therefore I have an opinion. 
 

My opinion is: Swapping ideas, items and learning things from other cultures is a defining thing that humans do and is the thing that has allowed us change and grow from our long ago ancestors’s knowledge and technology to the world we have today. Even thousands of years ago people traveled hundreds or thousands of miles to trade and they swapped items, information and culture. One could argue that it’s so deeply ingrained in us to learn and appropriate from other cultures that it might even be fundamental to humanity and how we think. 
 

Therefore my opinion is that saying “you can’t use items from my culture or you can’t use it in that way” is expecting something that goes against human nature and if this belief in exclusivity was something that became widespread, where people can police who can use what items or how because “you using it offends me”, that it would be detrimental to us all.  

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53 minutes ago, Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

I admit I’ve never heard of this Korean hairstyle and have no idea whether Koreans are upset by it being included in a video game and available to female characters. However this is the internet and a forum, therefore I have an opinion. 
 

My opinion is: Swapping ideas, items and learning things from other cultures is a defining thing that humans do and is the thing that has allowed us change and grow from our long ago ancestors’s knowledge and technology to the world we have today. Even thousands of years ago people traveled hundreds or thousands of miles to trade and they swapped items, information and culture. One could argue that it’s so deeply ingrained in us to learn and appropriate from other cultures that it might even be fundamental to humanity and how we think. 
 

Therefore my opinion is that saying “you can’t use items from my culture or you can’t use it in that way” is expecting something that goes against human nature and if this belief in exclusivity was something that became widespread, where people can police who can use what items or how because “you using it offends me”, that it would be detrimental to us all.  

Well put. On the other hand, though, some uses can definitely be very offensive and there are even some people who do things just to offend other people. It's always important to consider all sides and be respectful.

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6 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

No, it really doesn't.  "I would rather have my corporations greedy than virtuous. It's more trustworthy," makes no sense.  Companies will do whatever is best for them to make a profit anyway, trustworthy or not.  

It does make sense.  There's two reasons why.  First is universal appeal:  A company will try to stay away from controversial topics, because they want to sell to all parties involved.  For example, when asked why he doesn't talk about politics, Michael Jordan (the spokesman for Nike at the time) said "Republicans buy shoes, too."  Second is incentives.  A company with bizarre politics has goals that exist outside of servicing you.  To paraphrase famous comic artist Ethan Van Sciver:" Once you hire a zealot, your company's goal is no longer to make widgets.  Your new goal is political activism, and you can only produce widgets so long as it is in service of that  activism."  In contrast, the greedy company is going to give you as good a product as they can for as cheap as they can, because that is the best way to ensure that they will make money.  As an example of this, here is a TED video talking about how illicit sellers on the dark web develop excellent customer service and cheap prices.  This is all done to stay competitive and ensure future sales.

When it comes to politics, the best thing for a company to do is to try and stay out of it.  Leave politics to off-hours, or else you'll end up creating inferior products and alienating  at least half of the potential customers.  

EDIT: Me being cheeky aside, watch the TED talk video.  It demonstrates my point quite well.  

Edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493
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The explanation seems pretty simple:

They're drawing on historical styles but Canthan society doesn't have quite as rigid gender roles as Joseon-era Korea. (Not just because we're being "progressive" but because Guild Wars is fundamentally an action-fantasy kind of story so you want most characters, both PCs and NPCs, to credibly be someone who can go out on adventures and kill stuff.) Anet probably picked this up as a hairstyle associated with scholar or warrior figures, it's obviously carefully styled and fancy but less "tricky"/"dainty" than the other Canthan-themed hairstyles introduced for women.

Edited by ASP.8093
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5 hours ago, decease.3215 said:

according to wiki

" Shortly before release, developers were told to remove it, and no official reason has ever been given. Due to time constraints the district was replaced by the Great Collapse."

i did a search on old forum and find this quote from user Nick.6972

" this mix of styles received negative feedback from China and Korea, since those gaming markets traditionally prefer a uniform design"

ok   until here it all seem believable.   but then i did some further reading, and find this quote from game designer AnthonyOrdon

(https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/cutthroat/New-thing-in-Great-Collapse/page/1#post2473180)

"So, I’m not going to spoil anything but I’d like to take this opportunity to remind you guys that according to game lore, there was never a Canthan district. If you’ve done your research, you’ll know that the great collapse was formally an arts district."

"Just a final quick note, I’m certainly not denying that at one point a Canthan district was planned and partially implemented. But the actual lore of the district that the game shipped doesn’t support it very well right now."

from what i have read here it is more of a design choice. 

You are mixing in-game and out-of-game explanations. Sure, according to in-game there never was a Canthan district. In reality however we do know there was one (it's present in the trailers and previews for Divinity's Reach, and got replaced by a hole in the ground only shortly before release - you can look up a screenshot of that district just two posts down from the one you linked). And while there was no official explanation for that, there were sure enough unofficial ones.

There's some in this podcast.

relevant quote:

Quote

Josh Foreman: We had a Cantha district there. It was built out, it was polished, it was beautiful, and we kept getting feedback about the Asian market. And everyone was having a problem with it because the Chinese don't like having their architecture mixed with Koreans, and the Koreans don't like their architecture mixed with Chinese. And of course it's fantasy smorgasbord, right? You know, gothic mixed with nordic...it's the way fantasy works, but not over there, apparently. It got to the point where we were, like, well, what do we do with this? We don't have time to rebuild it. Nuke it.

also you can look here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-Cantha-Thread-Merged/1394252

(and i think few other posts of his in this thread, not going to look through all of it just to find some more quotes, though)

None of that is official, because officially Nothing Happened (TM) (in fact, from what we've heard JF got into trouble for speaking about some things - including this one - too openly), but that's still an inside info you can trust.

 

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17 hours ago, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

I totally agree with you, @moxxi.1902. It's super obvious that ArenaNet gets inspiration from real-life cultures, and Cantha is heavily inspired by Southeast Asian countries like Japan, China, Korea. The least they could do is be more careful when bringing those cultural elements to the game. No one would have been offended or at least negatively surprised if they had just done it right: give that hairstyle to males and a similar one to females. Unless they were going for a roleplay moment in which players create a Mulan-type of girl 😛 But jokes aside, being culturally appropriate matters. Some people will say "it's just a game" until it affects them personally. 

They did give the hairstyle to men.  The OP missed it when scouring hairstyles to support their level of offense.

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43 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Kryta is a mishmash of historically inaccurate European details.

Elona is a mishmash of historically inaccurate African details.

Why would Cantha be a historically accurate reproduction of a specific culture?

In Guild Wars Factions, Empire of the Dragon was inspired by a blend of different Asian cultures.

Kurzick and Luxon names were respectively more German- and Greek-flavored.

The overall art direction for the Kurzicks faction was inspired by Gothic architecture.

The overall art direction for the Luxons faction was inspired by Southeast Asian cultures.

Luxon may be a reference to Luzon island. (Philippines)

Kaineng City may be a reference to Kaifeng 开封, a major ancient capital of several dynasties.

The design of Kaineng City was inspired by Kowloon Walled City.[40]

At one point, Divinity's Reach contained a Canthan and Arts district similar to the Ossan Quarter and Rurikton; however, developers have pointed out that the canonicity of the Canthan district's existence is dubious due to changes made prior to the game's launch.[41] The district was removed late in development and was replaced with the Great Collapse.[42] Map artist Josh Foreman has said that a lot of the development team would like to return to Cantha and encourages interested players to ask for a future Canthan region.[43]

The upcoming expansion Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons will take place in Cantha.

Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cantha

By the story and references, Kurzicks are the Chinese Japanese Korean blend.
The Luxons are the South East Asian ones, the balanced skin color brown, roundish almond eyes.

Its not specific culture.

If they want Luxons to have the SEA culture inspiration they should have looked on the Boxer Codex

Edited by Norbe.7630
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17 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Kryta is a mishmash of historically inaccurate European details.

Elona is a mishmash of historically inaccurate African details.

Why would Cantha be a historically accurate reproduction of a specific culture?

Because apparently a lot of Asians actually do get offended by mixing of elements of differing Asian cultures as Astralporing's above comment quotes.  Its something I find weird to get bent out of shape over and frankly not something I'm personally willing bend to.  Its not only how fantasy works, its how real world culture works, things from other places get mixed in over time.

On topic I can only re-iterate that my problem with this hairstyle being on both human males and female was that I found it really lazy to use the same hairstyle for each.  Which was really annoying on top of all the other issues with much of this batch of new custom features (anyone else notice the mods locked the thread about the low quality of the Asian female faces? SMH).

Edited by The Greyhawk.9107
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24 minutes ago, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

What I said was giving that one to males AND a different one to females. Right now we have that hairstyle for females.

What you're saying here makes no sense, since the males ALREADY have this "sangtu"-hairstyle.

 

You previously said this:

On 12/2/2021 at 5:59 PM, TheLadyOfTheRings.9148 said:

give that hairstyle to males and a similar one to females.

Which is how it is at the moment.  The male characters have the sangtu hairstyle, while the female characters have a similiar one that looks like the sangtu hairstyle.

Edited by Raknar.4735
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