Fast Hands Must Be Baseline

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

47 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

Yes and no? I believe @Lan Deathrider.5910 said they operate like bundles?

Attunement swap counts as weapon swap. Forge, kits, shroud, bundles, Celestial Avatar should all trigger weapon swap sigils.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon_swap

 

You have to go to the photon forge page for the info on it's weapon swap interaction.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge

Tomes on Firebrand also trigger swap effects. Dismount triggers on swap effects.

 

Kneel for deadeye does not because the skills are considered a sequence (flip overs) and is a single weapon with 10 skills.

 

Also note that swap sigils will trigger no matter which set you are equipping to/from.

 

Which is all why dragon trigger should be triggering on swap effects.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Lan Deathrider.5910
Links and info from links

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Whoever is confused above isn't following the post I was @'ed at.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Just play Sword/Warhorn + Hammer in Wvw without fast hand. A nightmare. 

It's fun to use both Warhorn skill and have to now wait 8-9 seconds until I can do anything. 

The only other skill worth pressing is sword 2 but that's useless without the ability to swap to hammer after. 

 

If warrior would be in a good state, I could see an argument against FH baseline. But Warrior is the second worst class in the game right now. (Ele being the weakest) 

Even if FH became baseline, nothing would change. Warrior would still run Disc because the other options in Arms and Defense are terrible. Also Warrior would still be in a terrible state anyway. 

 

[Sobx.1758]

20 hours ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

Well we are the only class in the game that weapon swap changes our profession mechanic. The only other profession that has any trait that weapon swap affects their profession mechanic is thief and that just refunds some initiative, so that's like our versatile rage trait that gives adrenaline. And thieves start with full initiative, we have to earn our adrenaline. Of classes that have traits that do anything with weapon swaps warrior has the most so to me it's pretty obvious that warrior was designed to be swapping weapons often.

And all these traits are in disci anyways, which is part of the point why outside of disci, warrior isn't as special about it as a lot of you try to make it seem in threads like this one.

 

e: yes, facts are super confusing. 🤷‍♂️ 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And all these traits are in disci anyways, which is part of the point why outside of disci, warrior isn't as special about it as a lot of you try to make it seem in threads like this one.

 

e: yes, facts are super confusing. 🤷‍♂️ 

No that just goes to show that we are stuck into the discipline trait line because of it. As I said in my first sentence warrior is the only class that swapping weapons changes our profession mechanic.

[Sobx.1758]

42 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

No that just goes to show that we are stuck into the discipline trait line because of it. As I said in my first sentence warrior is the only class that swapping weapons changes our profession mechanic.

"all that just goes to show that we are stuck into the disci trait line because of it"? What? You've just said in your previous post that FH is good for warrior due to the weapon swap traits, didn't you? And those traits are in disci. In other words: all the weaponswap traits you're trying to use as an argument aren't even active if you're not picking disci anyways.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"all that just goes to show that we are stuck into the disci trait line because of it"? What? You've just said in your previous post that FH is good for warrior due to the weapon swap traits, didn't you? And those traits are in disci. In other words: all the weaponswap traits you're trying to use as an argument aren't even active if you're not picking disci anyways.

No, the important thing is the profession mechanic changing since they're on different CD when you weapon swap between weapons. Did you read my post?

[Sobx.1758]

24 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

No, the important thing is the profession mechanic changing since they're on different CD when you weapon swap between weapons. Did you read my post?

I've been mentioning this in the previous threads too, it's really nothing new. Go read those threads, since as I've said, this is just repeating the conversations that already took place in this very subforum. The profession mechanic also has its own icd, which you decrease by... yup, picking disci. So using your own argumentation from few posts before: warrior isn't exactly built around weapon swap. Disci is.

But don't start with this "no" now, you WERE trying to use "weapon swap traits" as an argument to make fh baseline in your previous post ("Of classes that have traits that do anything with weapon swaps warrior has the most so to me it's pretty obvious that warrior was designed to be swapping weapons often."). And all those traits ARE in disci. So yes.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Kodama.6453]

On 12/4/2021 at 12:22 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Which is all why dragon trigger should be triggering on swap effects

I think you made a logical mistake here.

Doesn't dragon trigger efficiently work like the kneel mechanic on deadeye, so they are more flip-over skills for your gunsaber than they are an additional bundle?

Especially since you can just enter dragon trigger while in gunsaber makes me think it is coded that way. So them not triggering weapon swap sigills is consistent in my opinion.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I think you made a logical mistake here.

Doesn't dragon trigger efficiently work like the kneel mechanic on deadeye, so they are more flip-over skills for your gunsaber than they are an additional bundle?

Especially since you can just enter dragon trigger while in gunsaber makes me think it is coded that way. So them not triggering weapon swap sigills is consistent in my opinion.

The question is whether it is a sequence, aka flipover, or a separate bundle. You don't have a key on the Gunsaber bar to enter Dragon Trigger. It is it's own button like Photon Forge or Shroud which indicates more than that it is a separate bundle than a sequence set.

[Kodama.6453]

11 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The question is whether it is a sequence, aka flipover, or a separate bundle. You don't have a key on the Gunsaber bar to enter Dragon Trigger. It is it's own button like Photon Forge or Shroud which indicates more than that it is a separate bundle than a sequence set.

If it would be a complete seperate bundle, you would be able to enter dragon trigger while not having gunsaber equipped. I know, this is a change requested alot for bladesworn in the first place, but as it currently is, you can't enter dragon trigger without using a gunsaber. The only difference really is that the button is placed on F2 instead of on the gunsaber weapon itself, but besides this, it works mechanically exactly the same like kneeling.

And even the button not being placed on the weapon itself has another precedence now with untamed. There are 2 sets of hammer skills for untamed and the button to switch modes is placed on an F-key as well, yet no one would claim that this other set of hammer skills is a completely seperated bundle set.

Thematically, it also makes more sense to be a flip-over than being an own bundle. Deadeye uses rifle for both sets of skills. What changes is their stance while using the weapons, if they are standing/running or are kneeling to take aim.

Same applies for bladesworn and dragon trigger. Thematically, it is still using the gunsaber in that stance. It just changes the state of the weapon by either being sheathed or unsheathed.

Meanwhile shrouds or photon forge are entirely different beasts, both gameplaywise and thematically. I can enter photon forge as long as it is off cooldown from anywhere I want, if I currently use double pistol/flamethrower/grenades/bombs/mortar, it all doesn't matter. I press the button and enter the photon forge. Thematically, it doesn't use any other weapon in a different way, either. Instead, I activate a completely independant device, the photon forge which is placed on my arm.

How it currently is handled, dragon trigger resembles the kneeling mechanic of deadeye's more than any other mechanic in the game.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

No that just goes to show that we are stuck into the discipline trait line because of it. As I said in my first sentence warrior is the only class that swapping weapons changes our profession mechanic.

The problem here is that swapping weapons shouldn't be thing that determines the effectiveness of the profession mechanic ... Adrenaline should be that thing. 

Again, I keep saying it ... it seems to me like reduced swapping is affecting a whole bunch of choices that warriors have in ways that are convincing people they need it all the time. The reality is that these things it affects shouldn't be trivialized by reduced swapping, so it seems to me the argument here is that trivialization is another indication FH should get a fat ole nerf. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[oscuro.9720]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The problem here is that swapping weapons shouldn't be thing that determines the effectiveness of the profession mechanic ... Adrenaline should be that thing. 

Again, I keep saying it ... it seems to me like reduced swapping is affecting a whole bunch of choices that warriors have in ways that are convincing people they need it all the time. The reality is that these things it affects shouldn't be trivialized by reduced swapping, so it seems to me the argument here is that trivialization is another indication FH should get a fat ole nerf. 

This is a bad take. Warrior is heavily balanced around having a 5 second weapon swap via years of having 5 second weapon swap being a give in any viable build. Low CD low utility weapon skills, burst skills, high cool down low duration utilities, and reduction of prolonged sustain via traits are all things that have come about due to warrior’s ability to constantly swap and burst. The dependence on weapon swap is deep. Try playing warrior without discipline. While it can run more net sustain (spell+tactics+str), it is slow, clunky, and very difficult to line up burst with the already-difficult-to-land setups that are necessary for warrior to be able to pull off a burst. 
Removing a key component of warriors kit around which it is balanced doesn’t make these problems go away, it just makes them even worse, and by proxy, makes the entire class worse, regardless of spec, role, or build. 

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

20 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I've been mentioning this in the previous threads too, it's really nothing new. Go read those threads, since as I've said, this is just repeating the conversations that already took place in this very subforum. The profession mechanic also has its own icd, which you decrease by... yup, picking disci. So using your own argumentation from few posts before: warrior isn't exactly built around weapon swap. Disci is.

But don't start with this "no" now, you WERE trying to use "weapon swap traits" as an argument to make fh baseline in your previous post ("Of classes that have traits that do anything with weapon swaps warrior has the most so to me it's pretty obvious that warrior was designed to be swapping weapons often."). And all those traits ARE in disci. So yes.

I'm not going to go through your ~5000 posts, that would be dumb.  And yes discipline is the "weapon swap trait line" however none of the weapon swap traits are nearly as impactful as fast hands, they all have their part but fast hands is what really makes or breaks warrior.  And your argument that each profession mechanic button/burst has it's own ICD doesn't mean much because each weapon is independent on their ICD.  You can literally burst back to back on weapon swap.  For example you could skull crack weapon swap and go right into a eviscerate not hitting any skill CD's, which is one of the things warrior is built around and supposed to do.

 

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The problem here is that swapping weapons shouldn't be thing that determines the effectiveness of the profession mechanic ... Adrenaline should be that thing. 

Again, I keep saying it ... it seems to me like reduced swapping is affecting a whole bunch of choices that warriors have in ways that are convincing people they need it all the time. The reality is that these things it affects shouldn't be trivialized by reduced swapping, so it seems to me the argument here is that trivialization is another indication FH should get a fat ole nerf. 

Well unfortunately weapon swapping is one of the major things that determines the effectiveness.  For warrior it might be just as important as adrenaline (there are tons of ways to get adrenaline).

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

I'm not going to go through your ~5000 posts, that would be dumb.  And yes discipline is the "weapon swap trait line" however none of the weapon swap traits are nearly as impactful as fast hands, they all have their part but fast hands is what really makes or breaks warrior.  And your argument that each profession mechanic button/burst has it's own ICD doesn't mean much because each weapon is independent on their ICD.  You can literally burst back to back on weapon swap.  For example you could skull crack weapon swap and go right into a eviscerate not hitting any skill CD's, which is one of the things warrior is built around and supposed to do.

Right no, debate there ... FH is impactful because Discipline is full of swap mechanics. That's doesn't mean FH should be baseline. That probably means Discipline is just WAY to good and if FH is the foundation of it being too good, then it's nerf time. If Anet doesn't fix that, then other traitline choices will continue to be less meaningful to players.

There is an issue with your argument though ... being able to avoid CD to get successive bursts when swapping a weapon has nothing to do with how fast your weapon swap recharges.  As long as your swap is not CD, you can ALREADY do that as long you have the adrenaline. In otherwords, the claim that warrior is built around and supposed to be able to avoid the CD when swapping weapons for successive bursts ... has NOTHING to do with FH. 

Quote

 

Well unfortunately weapon swapping is one of the major things that determines the effectiveness.  For warrior it might be just as important as adrenaline (there are tons of ways to get adrenaline).

Yes, it is unfortunate because that's something that can easily argued that Anet needs to fix badly so players set reasonable expectations for how the class mechanics work. It's not unreasonable to objectively question people using mechanics like weapon swapping, to avoiding CD's on other skills.  That's a big red flag. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

A few might stacks, a single condi cleaner amongst a sea of condi vomit, and 5 adrenaline on swap is not what makes FH important.

That is all just minor utility next to the versatility and importance of FH itself.

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

A few might stacks, a single condi cleaner amongst a sea of condi vomit, and 5 adrenaline on swap is not what makes FH important.

That is all just minor utility next to the versatility and importance of FH itself.

Yeah, again, this isn't a debate about why FH is important because that has nothing to do with whether it should be baseline. I simply don't get how it doesn't occur to the baseline FH proponents that these points about it's importance should be ignored as reasons to nerf it. 

The problem with FH is that is tied directly to Discipline as a traitline choice and if the goal for the trait system is to provide players with meaningful choices ... and the effect of FH is so good that it makes Discipline result in other choices less meaningful, then you can't avoid this discussion in the proposals for FH as baseline. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yeah, again, this isn't a debate about why FH is important because that has nothing to do with whether it should be baseline. I simply don't get how it doesn't occur to the baseline FH proponents that these points about it's importance should be ignored as reasons to nerf it. 

Because there is no reason to nerf it. That would be like saying we should double to CD on Shroud because it is such an important survival tool.

 

Your whole point on whether FH should be nerfed due to minor conveniences is a red herring.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Because there is no reason to nerf it. That would be like saying we should double to CD on Shroud because it is such an important survival tool.

 

Your whole point on whether FH should be nerfed due to minor conveniences is a red herring.

Except I'm not proposing to nerf it. What I'm saying is that the arguments being presented to make it baseline can ALSO be used to consider it's nerf. ... and be aware, this HAS happened in the past a few times. There is NO question that the trait system is intended to make trait choices meaningful. If one of those traitline choices is ALWAYS the default, then there is something about that traitline that is too good ... and you're telling me that's FH. 

Again, if the trait system is intended to make traitlines meaningful choices and Discipline is continually being viewed as a default traitline and detracting from the value of other lines, that doesn't make FH as baseline the default solution. 

Think about this: Do you think Anet's overall goal is to make warrior better or worse ... OR ... to maintain the integrity of traits as giving players meaningful choices to play how they want? I'm pretty sure if a choice it to be made at Anet, it's the integrity. If you really like the value of FH for your builds, then the "it's so awesome and important for all warrior builds" is not going to be the as compelling argument to justify it as baseline that you think it is. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[felix.2386]

fast hand being base line now bring minimum changes, discipline it'self is too good even without fast hand now, like banner mastery, and adrenaline gain...

warrior without discipline is literally impossible to maintain adrenaline..and unable to functionable as a class, unless you choose the CC adrenaline trait (which has no build support) or the condi trait which will still be better paired with discipline..

 

even if you decide to not use discipline with fast hand being base line...the build will see minimum benefit as you don't have discipline...

really the main problem now is less about fast hand but more about how warrior is unable to function properly now without adrenaline benefit from discipline..

before, in pvp, in the old time, when with defense line(cleansing ire) and signet of rage being meta..warrior could function without discipline adrenaline benefit which is when fast hand being base line will greatly benefit warrior..and discipline was really just mandatory for pvp for fast hand...

 

but now..not anymore..how it is the only trait line that is mandatory in all meta build in all mode is beyond me...and fast hand being base line really...will do minimum impact to change that...

Edited December 5, 2021 by felix.2386

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

I'm not going to go through your ~5000 posts, that would be dumb. 

No worries, I wouldn't expect you to do that. I didn't say "read all my posts", I said "read the previous baseline fh thread/s" -and sure that's also wouldn't be a small task, but the point is: I'm pretty sure everything written here already has been discussed in those threads.

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

And yes discipline is the "weapon swap trait line" however none of the weapon swap traits are nearly as impactful as fast hands, they all have their part but fast hands is what really makes or breaks warrior. 

Sure, none of them are as impactful as FH, but -and I'm repeating that in this thread again- it's NOT "because it's warrior specific". It's because of how weapon swap in this game works. And -again- this would be a similarly strong trait for other clases in the game [capable of in-combat weapon swapping] specifically because weapon swap is a whole separate skill bar with its separate skills -very obviously it is better to be locked in one set of skills for shorter time so you can choose from what you have easier. This is not warrior specific. This is game mechanic specific.

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

And your argument that each profession mechanic button/burst has it's own ICD doesn't mean much because each weapon is independent on their ICD.  You can literally burst back to back on weapon swap. 

You can literally burst back to back unless it's on cd, at which point no amount of weapon swap reduction will change that after your first back-to-back burst.

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

For example you could skull crack weapon swap and go right into a eviscerate not hitting any skill CD's, which is one of the things warrior is built around and supposed to do.

I know how it works, thanks. But you're missing the point by focusing on a single double burst chain.

 

[Sobx.1758]

56 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

A few might stacks, a single condi cleaner amongst a sea of condi vomit, and 5 adrenaline on swap is not what makes FH important.

That is all just minor utility next to the versatility and importance of FH itself.

...which is not "warrior-specific" and I wasn't the one bringing up "the weapon swap traits" as an argument.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...which is not "warrior-specific" and I wasn't the one bringing up "the weapon swap traits" as an argument.

My comment was directed to you though. Sorry for the lack of context mate.

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Because there is no reason to nerf it. That would be like saying we should double to CD on Shroud because it is such an important survival tool.

 

Your whole point on whether FH should be nerfed due to minor conveniences is a red herring.

To be very fair something like this did happen. The necromancer community made the same arguments for Vital Persistence and the Soul Reaping trait line. The community was saying how is such an important trait, how playing without it isn't fun/ smooth, how its needed on all builds, and how its such a core pare of the class it should be made baseline. 

 

Anet:

One of the biggest changes for necromancers in this patch is the change to the Vital Persistence trait. Previously, this trait reduced the rate at which life force decayed while in shroud and was too powerful compared to the other two traits in the same tier. We've changed the functionality of this trait in order to provide a different option that is easier to track and is more competitive with other traits in the same tier.

 

Anet saw the pleas, look at their internal stats...then literally came in, said the trait was too strong compared to other options, and nerfed it.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sigmoid.7082

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

27 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

To be very fair something like this did happen. The necromancer community made the same arguments for Vital Persistence and the Soul Reaping trait line. The community was saying how is such an important trait, how playing without it isn't fun/ smooth, how its needed on all builds, and how its such a core pare of the class it should be made baseline. 

 

Anet:

One of the biggest changes for necromancers in this patch is the change to the Vital Persistence trait. Previously, this trait reduced the rate at which life force decayed while in shroud and was too powerful compared to the other two traits in the same tier. We've changed the functionality of this trait in order to provide a different option that is easier to track and is more competitive with other traits in the same tier.

 

Anet saw the pleas, look at their internal stats...then literally came in, said the trait was too strong compared to other options, and nerfed it.

Yeah, and shroud is one of the most potent self sustain tools, and still is to this day. FH is no where near the level of loaded that Shroud continues to be, but it is the kind of trait that defines warrior gameplay to the point where not having it is actively detrimental, much like IP was in the past.