Fast Hands Must Be Baseline

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah, and shroud is one of the most potent self sustain tools, and still is to this day. FH is no where near the level of loaded that Shroud continues to be, but it is the kind of trait that defines warrior gameplay to the point where not having it is actively detrimental, much like IP was in the past.

The point here isn't to compare the level of 'loaded' that shroud is compared to FH because how we regard the importance of it is irrelevant, as demonstrated by the Vital Persistence experience. The point is that you shouldn't assume Anet is going to come to the same conclusion about how to handle FH as you have because we have past experience to suggest how much they value the integrity of trait choices. 

People need to understand how the VP experience is completely mimicking the FH one. Anet will not ignore the intent of the trait system just because players think warriors can't suffer more nerfs. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

@Sobx.1758 and @Obtena.7952 fighting hard again, I see. What is so hard to understand about having 5 second weaponswap cooldown consistency across all warrior builds?

There would still be meaningful trait choice, either you want enhanced 5 sec weaponswap (you take Discipline), or you value traits from other traitlines over additional effects on weaponswap and other Discipline traits.

 

Obtena's argument that making FH baseline would somehow destroy(?) meaningful trait choice design, is such logical fallacy. Making FH baseline would certainly not hurt the "meaningful trait choice design". Why? Because you can still freely choose Discipline if you need even better 5 second weaponswap and other Discipline traits suitable for your build. If you don't need them, you are free to not pick Discipline. It's just that weaponswap cooldown would be same for all builds, regardless if Discipline is used or not.

 

Saying that making FH baseline would make Discipline traitline even more appealing is another logical fallacy. Why? Because FH baseline is not for players who play Discipline builds, but for players who play non-Discipline builds and value traits from the other traitlines over enhanced weaponswap/Discipline traits. Why would someone [who wants to use e.g. Defense over Discipline, because Defense has more suitable traits for their build] swap back to Discipline from Defense only because of weaponswap bonuses? Why would they suddenly stop valuing Defense traits for their build? They can, of course 🙂 If their build benefits from Discipline more, than Defense, sure. But that has nothing to do with FH baseline making Discipline more attractive.

 

FH baseline simply makes non-Discipline builds less annoying to play. That is not breaking meaningful choice design, that is simply relatively huge "Quality of life" for performance of all non-Discipline builds.

 

Also, mentioning nerf to Discipline and FH instead, brilliant idea. Basically big middle finger to most used meta warrior builds, that were balanced with 5 sec weaponswap in mind since forever, very thoughtful.

 

Can't believe I am wasting time and energy explaining this to the same people again, when I already know what they are going to reply...

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

What is so hard to understand about having 5 second weaponswap cooldown consistency across all warrior builds?

Nothing is hard to understand about that. That's why we have the choice to do that, as intended by a trait system that allows players to have numerous, meaningful choices. If FH in Discipline is devaluing OTHER traitlines as meaningful choices to players, then nerfing it is an option, as we can see from Vital Persistence in the case of necro. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

FH baseline simply makes non-Discipline builds less annoying to play.

That would be equally true for any class in the game. There's nothing confusing about fh being strong, but there seems to be some confusion among some people who are trying to claim that fh is especially strong on warrior. No, it's especially strong due to how weapon swap in gw2 works and what it provides. Warrior isn't somehow "made around fh", only disci is.

 

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Can't believe I am wasting time and energy explaining this to the same people again, when I already know what they are going to reply...

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[cryorion.9532]

59 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That would be equally true for any class in the game. There's nothing confusing about fh being strong, but there seems to be some confusion among some people who are trying to claim that fh is somehow especially strong on warrior. No, it's especially strong due to how weapon swap in gw2 works and what it provides. Warrior isn't somehow "made around fh", only disci is.

 

It is irrelevant that FH would be beneficial on every profession because only warrior has this trait that halves weaponswap cooldown and significantly alters/improves how a build plays. By altering/improving how a build plays, I mean that you can e.g. swap between two weaponsets more frequently which gives much better in-combat adaptation, creates more flexible rotations and so on. This is currently available only for Discipline builds which also happen to be the most used builds with best performance (in general). And what we want is this halved weaponswap to be available for all warrior builds due to how it alters/improves a build.

We don't want FH to be exclusive to Discipline anymore. We want the choice to be between 5sec weaponswap and improved 5sec weaponswap, not 10sec weaponswap and 5sec weaponswap.

Edited December 6, 2021 by cryorion.9532

[cryorion.9532]

54 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing is hard to understand about that. That's why we have the choice to do that, as intended by a trait system that allows players to have numerous, meaningful choices. If FH in Discipline is devaluing OTHER traitlines as meaningful choices to players, then nerfing it is an option, as we can see from Vital Persistence in the case of necro. 

You realize that there is no other way to make a trait baseline other than doing an exception in this "trait system rule", right?

If FH is devaluing other traitlines, another option is to make it baseline if warrior is more enjoyable and performs better with it. In the end, all non-Discipline builds would benefit from it, so it would be win-win. No reason to nerf something that makes the class better. Remember that we know how impactful would FH baseline be on non-Discipline builds.

[Obtena.7952]

 

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No reason to nerf something that makes the class better. Remember that we know how impactful would FH baseline be on non-Discipline builds.

Yet, things that make classes better get nerfed all the time so it's not that there isn't any reasons, it's just that you don't know them. Again, how much better it would make the class is not a reason to make it baseline because it's a trivial reason. "Being better for the class" wasn't a reason for Anet to make Vital Persistence baseline either. It was in fact a reason for Anet to nerf it. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Of course. That doesn't mean I'm wrong though. 

Ok, so what exactly is this meaningful choice? That we have to pick Discipline if we want to have faster weaponswap? We don't want to make this choice. We want Anet to make an exception for FH and make it baseline by breaking "trait system rule" in this case, aka making a trait baseline, just like they did before. There is no other way how you make a trait baseline, obviously. How is this a bad thing, especially when it aims to improve things that need improvement?

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Ok, so what exactly is this meaningful choice? That we have to pick Discipline if we want to have faster weaponswap? We don't want to make this choice. 

Not wanting to make the choice is irrelevant ... THAT certainly isn't a reason to get buffs. If Anet didn't want us to make choices, they wouldn't have put the trait system in place to begin with. What's most amazing to me is even when confronted with the logic behind how Anet justified Vital Persistence nerf with exactly this meaningful choices reasoning, you can't see how it parallels this for FH. It's also amazing to me that somehow, you think Anet will arrive at the same solution you did based on the same reasons ... like they don't have their own ideas of how the game should change and they need players to tell them. Clearly, there is some tunnel vision happening here and it certainly doesn't match reality. 

You clearly won't understand this but ... I like FH ... just like I liked VP. Maybe ignoring the fact that Anet wants us to have meaningful trait choice works for you to justify the FH baseline request ... but it doesn't appear to work for Anet. 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Not wanting to make the choice is irrelevant. If Anet didn't want us to make choices, they wouldn't have put the trait system in place to begin with. 

But this is special case, FH being significant part of difference between Discipline and non-Discipline builds in terms of control and gameplay, and we want that to change. We don't want every trait to be baseline, nor multiple traits. There would be still XY choices needed to be made. And actually, even more with other non-Discipline builds becoming more usable. You wrote it as if there would be suddenly no choice at all, which is fallacy. Basically, it is only this one choice that we don't want to make anymore (we have to pick Discipline in order to have 5sec wepswap).

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

But this is special case, FH being significant part of difference between Discipline and non-Discipline builds in terms of control and gameplay, and we want that to change. We don't want every trait to be baseline, nor multiple traits. There would be still XY choices needed to be made. And actually, even more with other non-Discipline builds becoming more usable. You wrote it as if there would be suddenly no choice at all, which is fallacy. Basically, it is only this one choice that we don't want to make anymore (we have to pick Discipline in order to have 5sec wepswap).

VP was a "special case" for the same reason too ... and being a special case doesn't mean Anet sees the game through the same tunnel you and other proponents have for FH. It didn't for VP. 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

VP was a special case too ... 

Did VP alter necromancer's gameplay as much as FH warrior's? I don't think so. Personally, I don't think Anet will nerf Fast Hands because of how integrated it is in so many Discipline builds accross all warrior specializations. Simply put, it would be a very stupid idea, unless they would make a lot of additional changes.

Edited December 6, 2021 by cryorion.9532

[Sobx.1758]

59 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

It is irrelevant that FH would be beneficial on every profession because only warrior has this trait that halves weaponswap cooldown and significantly alters/improves how a build plays.

It's relevant if "you" (whoever in this thread already did that, not sure about you specifically) stop pretending it's somehow "strong because warrior is made around fh" as an attempt to claim it deserves to be baseline.

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By altering/improving how a build plays, I mean that you can e.g. swap between two weaponsets more frequently which gives much better in-combat adaptation, creates more flexible rotations and so on. 

I'm really not sure why you think I need this explained, when this is one of the things I already write whenever this thread comes back. In this thread too, btw.

The point (repeated throughout threads, again, even this one) is: it would "give much better in-combat adaptation" and "create more flexible rotations" for most classes in the game, because that's how the weapon swap in this game works. So, I guess, make it baseline for everyone, since it's good for the game and the players will feel better having the option to swap more frequently. In the end, that's exactly your argument here.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[cryorion.9532]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It's relevant if "you" (whoever in this thread already did that, not sure about you specifically) stop pretending it's somehow "strong because warrior is made around fh" as an attempt to claim it deserves to be baseline.

I'm really not sure why you think I need this explained, when this is one of the things I already write whenever this thread comes back. In this thread too, btw.

The point (repeated throughout threads, again, even this one) is: it would "give much better in-combat adaptation" and "create more flexible rotations" for most classes in the game, because that's how the weapon swap in this game works. So, I guess, make it baseline for everyone, since it's good for the game? In the end, that's exactly your argument here.

 

But other professions never had this trait and never needed it. They never "tasted how it feels to swap more frequently" and never had this split in builds of faster weaponswap gameplay with better combat adaptation/flexibility. When Anet balanced other professions, they never had to think that these professions have access to halved weaponswap which can make some rotations either too strong or whatever.

But for warrior, FH created playstyle that is simply better and more practical compared to classic 10sec wepswap.

That is why it is irrelevant that other professions can benefit from it, too. They don't need it because they weren't balanced around 5sec wepswap. So arguing that my argument about wanting FH baseline because it is benefitial for non-Discipline warrior builds is bad because "FH baseline would be benefitial for every profession" makes no sense.

[Issette.3248]

6 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

But other professions never had this trait and never needed it. They never "tasted how it feels to swap more frequently" and never had this split in builds of faster weaponswap gameplay with better combat adaptation/flexibility. When Anet balanced other professions, they never had to think that these professions have access to halved weaponswap which can make some rotations either too strong or whatever.

 

To be fair at this point: Thief has a similar issue with the Preparedness trait in Trickery.

Some skills ended in being to strong with low initiative costs because you could spam them too much. A-Net increased the initiative costs more and more, what ended in thieves need to play Trickery.

(A quick look into some web pages with meta builds also shows that thief is in a similar situation as warrior, because most builds use Trickery and Discipline. Esp. in competitive modes.)

 

This is just a small comparison that shows that the holy grail of design and balance, A-Net, made two times a similar mistake in weapon skill design, ending in a similar problem for two entirely different classes: People are forced to take a trait line to play the weapons as they were designed.

 

In both cases: these two traits (Fast Hands and Preparedness) should be baseline.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Rettan.9603

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

But other professions never had this trait and never needed it. They never "tasted how it feels to swap more frequently" and never had this split in builds of faster weaponswap gameplay with better combat adaptation/flexibility. When Anet balanced other professions, they never had to think that these professions have access to halved weaponswap which can make some rotations either too strong or whatever.

But for warrior, FH created playstyle that is simply better and more practical compared to classic 10sec wepswap.

A lot of traits across the professions "are beneficial for non-that-trait/spec builds" and that's hardly a reason to make them baseline. Traits are beneficial, because that's what traits do, what even is this ""argument""?

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That is why it is irrelevant that other professions can benefit from it, too. They don't need it because they weren't balanced around 5sec wepswap. So arguing that my argument about wanting FH baseline because it is benefitial for non-Discipline warrior builds is bad because "FH baseline would be benefitial for every profession" makes no sense.

It makes sense when you understand the context of that response. Context being posts that try claiming FH is good specifically because it's on warrior. But that's not the case.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Did VP alter necromancer's gameplay as much as FH warrior's? I don't think so. 

It doesn't matter. The situation here is the same. Somehow you think that your own assessment of the difference between how impactful VP and FH are to their respective classes means Anet will treat the situations different. That doesn't make any sense. I'm pretty certain Anet isn't going to ask you how they should handle the game. 

You aren't understanding my point here. The arguments to make FH baseline can be viewed ALSO as a reason to nerf it, regardless of whatever personal deviations from other instances you think apply. 

Also, your point that FH should be baseline because it benefits all warrior builds is trivial because all traits are designed to be beneficial for their class. The fact that the trait system is intended to give players meaningful choices means there  isn't an argument to be made for FH being baseline because of it's impact or benefit. You ALREADY have that impact or benefit by making the neceesary choices and that is how the game is INTENDED to work. You asked me what meaningful choices mean ... it means there are good things to choose from ... but there are limitations.

Your argument is literally we shouldn't have things as choices if they are beneficial to the class and so those things should be baseline. That's absurd. I can literally look at any traitline for a given class and say 'most of these traits are beneficial to the class so they should be baseline', invalidating the whole trait system. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

A lot of traits across the professions "are beneficial for non-that-trait/spec builds" and that's hardly a reason to make them baseline. Traits are beneficial, because that's what traits do, what even is this ""argument""?

It makes sense when you understand the context of that response. Context being posts that try claiming FH is good specifically because it's on warrior. But that's not the case.

But FH is only on warrior. Why speculate that it would be also good on other professions when it is not and never was on other professions? It is irrelevant. And you also oversimplify/underestimate the reason why FH should be basline. It is obviously more complex than just "beneficial for non-Discipline builds". You make it sound as if we wanted the change just because. But the reason was explained many times in more detail. If you make a trait baseline, there is no other way to do that other than removing one choice to add multiple ones. We know that traits have their meaning, but FH has too big impact on how potent weaponswapping is and we want that consistency on all warrior builds. Literally every buff in game ever was to improve something, to make it better. How is FH basline different when it is also meant to improve non-Dis builds? FH isn't some random trait that we suddenly decided that we want as baseline, there is functional reason behind it.

[cryorion.9532]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It doesn't matter. The situation here is the same. Somehow you think that your own assessment of the difference between how impactful VP and FH are to their respective classes means Anet will treat the situations different. That doesn't make any sense. I'm pretty certain Anet isn't going to ask you how they should handle the game. 

You aren't understanding my point here. The arguments to make FH baseline can be viewed ALSO as a reason to nerf it, regardless of whatever personal deviations from other instances you think apply. 

Also, your point that FH should be baseline because it benefits all warrior builds is trivial because all traits are designed to be beneficial for their class. The fact that the trait system is intended to give players meaningful choices means there  isn't an argument to be made for FH being baseline because of it's impact or benefit. You ALREADY have that impact or benefit by making the neceesary choices and that is how the game is INTENDED to work. You asked me what meaningful choices mean ... it means there are good things to choose from ... but there are limitations.

Your argument is literally we shouldn't have things as choices if they are beneficial to the class and so those things should be baseline. That's absurd. I can literally look at any traitline for a given class and say 'most of these traits are beneficial to the class so they should be baseline', invalidating the whole trait system. 

It does matter. You can't treat everything the same way. If you did, things would end up like after February 2020 balance patch. Also, my argument isn't "we shouldn't have things as choices if they are beneficial to the class and so those things should be baseline". That is your generalized logical fallacy. FH baseline is more specific and defined.

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

 but FH has too big impact on how potent weaponswapping is 

Sounds like a good reason to nerf it. 

2 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

It does matter. You can't treat everything the same way. If you did, things would end up like after February 2020 balance patch.

Well, actually, Anet can treat it however they see fit, especially based on what you just said above. Ironically, the existence of the Feb 2020 balance patch is proof of that. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Sounds like a good reason to nerf it. 

 

Well, actually, they can treat it that way, especially based on what you just said above. 

Why would you nerf something that is working well and as intended, is time-tested over like 8 years and makes the class play better? Only to downgrade most used builds for sake of weaker and more annoying to play builds? FH is not VP, stop acting like it is.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

Why would you nerf something that is working well and as intended,

For exactly the reason you just gave:  FH has too big impact on how potent weaponswapping is 

You aren't going to ignore this elephant in the room for this discussion. Even YOU are acknowledging the impact FH has on the potency of weapon swapping is TOO BIG, even as just a trait choice.  

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

For exactly the reason you just gave:  FH has too big impact on how potent weaponswapping is 

That comes from assumption that the trait can't become baseline. It can.

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, cryorion.9532 said:

That comes from assumption that the trait can't become baseline. It can.

No, the fact that FH can be nerfed because it has too big an impact on the potency of weaponswapping is not predicated on whether it can become baseline. All kinds of things are nerfed that could be made baseline. In fact, ANYTHING can be made baseline if Anet really wants to, yet things are nerfed all the time, so that correlation makes no sense. 

That elephant is getting pretty big, especially if you continue to acknowledge FH has too big impact on how potent weaponswapping is

Edited December 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Instead of postulating on whether FH would be amazing on other classes (which where never balanced around having it like warrior) ask yourself instead how often they make use of Runes of the Warrior. It would give them an 8s weapon swap, certainly much better than the 10s baseline, so how many other professions take advantage of that?