Fast Hands Must Be Baseline

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But hey, maybe you've just proven that the weapon swap reduction effect can be rebalanced to allow other options to compete with it, something that some people here pretend isn't possible 🤷‍♂️ 

You make strong arguments, some of which I would disagree with (notably your claim that warrior isn’t balanced around fast hands, which you accurately point out wouldn’t even be an argument for baseline fast hands anyways). I just wanted to say I agree with you on your last point here. Any who, have a nice day friendo 🙂 

[oscuro.9720]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 I'm not arguing that warriors shouldn't have access FH so .... what's your point?

Just asking a question. 

[Lucentfir.7430]

Anytime I see Obtena post in a thread most of the time there's going to be so much pointless back and forth discussion when the debating starts. If you don't mind me asking Obtena can you post your pvp gameplay and/or how many hours you've played warrior for since we're talking about the QoL that is FH ? So I can get a better idea of what type of player you are? You spit out these post like you know things, but actual gameplay always paints a different picture? 

 

I'm just curious how you get this sort of PoV. If not that's fine.  But these post seem like they come in with  inexperienced takes for the sake of protest.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Lucentfir.7430

[Obtena.7952]

53 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

If you don't mind me asking Obtena can you post your pvp gameplay and/or how many hours you've played warrior for since we're talking about the QoL that is FH ?

You could, but it's not relevant to the discussion because I'm not disagreeing with the QoL that is FH.  I can see you are following the thread closely 😉

Quote

I'm just curious how you get this sort of PoV. 

Well, there is the history of the game where Anet has nerfed other things like Vital Persistence that people were saying should be baseline for exactly the same reasons as FH. Does that work for you? 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[gmmg.9210]

50 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Anytime I see Obtena post in a thread most of the time there's going to be so much pointless back and forth discussion when the debating starts. If you don't mind me asking Obtena can you post your pvp gameplay and/or how many hours you've played warrior for since we're talking about the QoL that is FH ? So I can get a better idea of what type of player you are? You spit out these post like you know things, but actual gameplay always paints a different picture? 

 

I'm just curious how you get this sort of PoV. If not that's fine.  But these post seem like they come in with  inexperienced takes for the sake of protest.

I concur with this poster, Obtena are you playing Warrior in spvp? I mean let's be real here, if you want to argue your point then have something behind it to weigh in. If you're going to ref from the sidelines without playing warrior in pvp then be my guest, but as it stands it seems almost every warrior main wants some for of FH to be baseline and balanced around that concept.

[Obtena.7952]

18 minutes ago, gmmg.9210 said:

I concur with this poster, Obtena are you playing Warrior in spvp? 

Concur all you like. Is there a comprehension problem here? That question just demonstrates you don't undersatnd what I'm saying.  I'm not disagreeing that FH is really good. I'm disagreeing that FH needs to be baseline based on the arguments people are presenting. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[gmmg.9210]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

If I am or not is irrelevant. I'm not disagreeing that FH is really good. Is there a comprehension problem here?

I understand your point Obtena, FH is super great. It could even be nerfed to make an unbalanced class an even more unbalanced nightmare. All I'm saying is that it would be much easier to balance Warrior with FH baseline and everything else weighed against that notion, as opposed to it being a minor trait pigeon holing every warrior in the game.

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, gmmg.9210 said:

I understand your point Obtena, FH is super great. It could even be nerfed to make an unbalanced class an even more unbalanced nightmare.

Yes it is  super great and yes it could be nerfed based on the arguments many OTHER PEOPLE have made in these FH baseline threads ... and it wouldn't be the first time Anet nerfed something people thought should be baseline either. Somehow you convinced yourself warriors are exceptional and it couldn't happen to warriors like it has other classes. There isn't anything exceptional about them. You're just fooling yourself. 

Quote

All I'm saying is that it would be much easier to balance Warrior with FH baseline and everything else weighed against that notion, as opposed to it being a minor trait pigeon holing every warrior in the game.

You can say that all you like, but you don't actually know how easy it would be to balance Warrior with FH baseline. How easy it would be isn't a reason to do it anyways. seems to me if you want to justify changes with 'how easy' it would be ... it's probably WAY easier for Anet to change the 5 seconds in FH to ... 8. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

In the event that Obtena's dodging wasn't a clue, the actual warrior gameplay can be somewhat accurately guessed as single digit %.

Which is absolutely fine! Not gameplay shaming you in the slightest mate. We all play what we like and dabble when we want into other classes. Lord knows my mesmer playtime is miniscule and really only so I know how to fight it better. But what the others are getting at in asking that question is they are trying to gauge how much you actually know the class for the sake of an honest discussion. And this gets to more than PvP, it could be PvE or WvW for all I care. What the people who play the class the most and thus know it the best have all come to the conclusion that FH needs to be baseline.

And you know what, if that meant that Anet made it baseline, but at 6s instead of 5s, then so be it. We'd all be better off for it in the long run without being pigeonholed into a traitline that only offers meh utility and axe mastery otherwise.

[gmmg.9210]

17 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes it could ... and it wouldn't be the first time it happened either.

You can say that all you like, but you don't know how easy it would be to balance Warrior with FH baseline. How easy it would be isn't a reason to do it anyways. seems to me if you want to justify changes with 'how easy' it would be ... it's probably WAY easier for Anet to change the 5 seconds in FH to ... 8. 

It would be easy to make that change, and kill the class. Warrior is the lowest spot in competitive gameplay, it had ONE appearance in the last 3 MATs in a row. So taking out that fundamental trait would kill it. And just imagine having to balance the entire class around a worse QoL. Oh wait they tried that with Berzerker and now it's terrible and a meme. You can inflate the numbers all you want but Berzerker is a one shot meme rifle gimmick build that doesn't have any QoL that it used to have from it's f2 being removed.

 

So now do that to the whole class and let's just say the whole Warrior pvp/wvw community has an exodus from the class and possibly the game. This is why playing the class is important because it gives you a feeling for what you're talking about. I wouldn't judge a movie I haven't seen, a game I haven't played, a class I haven't understood.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, gmmg.9210 said:

It would be easy to make that change, and kill the class.

Yup ... and it wouldn't be the first time ... so don't pretend like warrior is special somehow and it couldn't happen to them. Everything you say ... it's happened before. The whole warrior competitive community has an exodus? Maybe ... but I doubt speculation is part of Anet's equation here. They have done worse. 

The part I like is that you talk like I'm the one being absurd by being concerned about people running around the forums, yelling that FH is amazing for all warrior builds and making Discipline a default traitline ... that just might get you the exact kind of attention you DON'T want. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup ... and it wouldn't be the first time ... so don't pretend like warrior is special somehow. 

Well, we aren't Guardian's that's for sure, Anet's special child right there.

[Mungrul.9358]

10 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Well, we aren't Guardian's that's for sure, Anet's special child right there.

I'm still bitter they replaced Monk with Guardian 😄

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I'm still bitter they replaced Monk with Guardian 😄

Yeah, and that we lost Paragon and Dervish to boot.

[Vancho.8750]

19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You could, but it's not relevant to the discussion because I'm not disagreeing with the QoL that is FH.  I can see you are following the thread closely 😉

Well, there is the history of the game where Anet has nerfed other things like Vital Persistence that people were saying should be baseline for exactly the same reasons as FH. Does that work for you? 

They also buffed the kitten out of necro when they changed Vital Persistence, to make it more about active gameplay, several traits got beseline also , mostly stuff like the spectral skills trait, it got several in shroud damage boosts for power like Reapers Onslaught, they retooled allot of weapon skills to give out more Life force, all the changes made were to force necro builds to be about using shroud and then regaining life force and not camping it.

Necro is the worst example you could make about baselining, since it got allot of stuff beselined and now it is one of the most versatile professions in the game where it can play all kind of builds with all its elites and even core in all content and be really good in there too. Remember when Necro was a no no in PVE thing of the past now.

See for a moment there I thought that Bladesworn could get away from discipline, turns out the one weapon spec still needs it. also it turns out that without bursts the weapons are quite bad by themselves. You know what would have been cool if fast hands was baseline but for bladesworn it was 10 seconds but it had 2 weapons and gunsabre on 5 second cd to weave skills, if Bladesworn is meant to be the one weapon master archetype then baseline fast hands opens up the 3 weapon bundle elite spec.
And if it is baseline each spec can get different weapon swap cds for balancing, currently it can't the elite specs are rigid based on the fact that fast hands is a trait, and since you like necro I'll give an example. Life force drains differently on all specs, core is 4% reaper is 5% scourge doesn't lose LF but it spends it per spell.  

So how do we add more versatility to warrior, since it is currently the least versatile profession in the game. In this moment Warrior functions because of the discipline traitline, not because it some kind of super amazing traits in there, but because they are really basic functionality that warrior can't really function properly without. There were several attempts to get away from it but they were never enough to beat the minimal basic functionality that every weapon and skill has been balanced around.

So which would be less development time, to baseline Fast hands and fix the skills from there or retool the whole warrior from the ground up and at the same time consider fast hands as an option and still end with every build running discipline? 

Also about your argument for removing fast hands, that is lunacy, it is removing basic functionality of warrior that has worked from the start of the game across the board, it is no different from shroud, stealth attacks, dual attacks initiative, shatters, you can get away with it for an elite spec by changing it to something else but nuking it is stupid.

Warrior is lacking on the mechanics department it has bursts and that is it, everything else has some kind of speciality to go with the profession be it aegis, stealth attacks, corruption etc. Fast hands is like that but it is a trait, no one in pvp expects warrior to not run it, people wouldn't not get mass confused about it if it baseline, it would not change the affirmed gameplay loop about warrior swapping a weapon on 5 seconds. 

Please don't use the Patric Star argumentation  the thread is Obtenaed enough.

Also tinfoil hat time : Are you working for arenanet to squeeze out essays on subjects or just a weirdo forum warrior?

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

They also buffed the kitten out of necro when they changed Vital Persistence, to make it more about active gameplay, several traits got beseline also , mostly stuff like the spectral skills trait, it got several in shroud damage boosts for power like Reapers Onslaught, they retooled allot of weapon skills to give out more Life force, all the changes made were to force necro builds to be about using shroud and then regaining life force and not camping it.

Awesome ... I don't see what that has to do with the thread but ... OK. Sounds great. Maybe they will do a similar thing with FH if they decide to change is as well. 

VP is a good or bad example? I dunno ... but it's a RELEVANT example, I know that much. The situation here is very similar to it.

The arguments other people are presenting to make FH baseline are ALSO relevant arguments to nerf FH. That's actually got nothing to do with my view of FH and it's impact on Warrior builds. I'm just me putting some perspective for some of the less experienced players who think labeling warrior 'exceptional case' is the final word to get what they want, like somehow Anet doesn't control the game and design it how they want. 🤔

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I would say that VP is highly relevant considering it resulted in lots of functionality becoming baseline.

That would be like FH, adrenaline on swap, and adrenaline when struck all becoming baseline, but Berserker, Spell breaker, and Bladesworn stuck with higher baseline swaps (6s, 6s, and 8s respectively).

Or even better they could make core weapon swap 4s 😉 

Then we can do nice things like apply extra condos on Burst, or weakness on Burst, or Blind.

[oscuro.9720]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I would say that VP is highly relevant considering it resulted in lots of functionality becoming baseline.

That would be like FH, adrenaline on swap, and adrenaline when struck all becoming baseline, but Berserker, Spell breaker, and Bladesworn stuck with higher baseline swaps (6s, 6s, and 8s respectively).

Or even better they could make core weapon swap 4s 😉 

Then we can do nice things like apply extra condos on Burst, or weakness on Burst, or Blind.

Weakness on burst 😩

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

25 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Weakness on burst 😩

You kind of can with some bursts with body blow.

[Vancho.8750]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Awesome ... I don't see what that has to do with the thread but ... OK. Sounds great. Maybe they will do a similar thing with FH if they decide to change is as well. 

VP is a good or bad example? I dunno ... but it's a RELEVANT example, I know that much. The situation here is very similar to it.

The arguments other people are presenting to make FH baseline are ALSO relevant arguments to nerf FH. That's actually got nothing to do with my view of FH and it's impact on Warrior builds. I'm just me putting some perspective for some of the less experienced players who think labeling warrior 'exceptional case' is the final word to get what they want, like somehow Anet doesn't control the game and design it how they want. 🤔

The problem is that Arenanet changes what they want all the time without considering previous changes, and warrior is exceptional in this case cause it is by far the simplest profession with the simplest skills and the simplest traits, so when they change something it can be felt to the maximum extent(drawbacks, cc doing 0 damage, boon durations etc). Also they have been balancing warrior with fast hands in mind from the start which made Discipline baseline for warrior at expense of traitline slot, all builds boil down to the same use burst more, basically the same build in all modes.

Warrior is the canary in the mine shaft, it has allot of simple tools in its kit and by all means it should be the easiest to balance, but it isn't.

Warrior siting on one spot casting 5 years too OP, thief with multiple teleports and necro shroud not OP, excuse me if I do not trust their decision making. It doesn't make any sense that they keep overloading the kits on other professions while removing synergies and gameplay from warrior. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Vancho.8750 " It doesn't make any sense that they keep overloading the kits on other professions while removing synergies and gameplay from warrior."

And some people wonder why I suggest really strong changes for warrior periodically. If warrior was able to overload it's Bursts like how a thief can overload Steal, or how a Necro can overload the Shroud the other professions would all lose their collective 💩.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Vancho.8750 said:

The problem is that Arenanet changes what they want all the time without considering previous changes, and warrior is exceptional in this case cause it is by far the simplest profession with the simplest skills and the simplest traits, so when they change something it can be felt to the maximum extent(drawbacks, cc doing 0 damage, boon durations etc). Also they have been balancing warrior with fast hands in mind from the start which made Discipline baseline for warrior at expense of traitline slot, all builds boil down to the same use burst more, basically the same build in all modes.

So you think Anet can't nerf FH because warrior is exceptional and so that leads to the conclusion FH should be baseline? Do you pay attention the patch notes and the game? Exceptional or not, the arguments other people are presenting to make FH baseline can been seen as a reason nerf it, and Anet has nerfed 'exceptional' classes in the past. It's astounding that the self-application of exceptional label would make you think believe FH nerf couldn't happen here when it's probably MORE likely than making it baseline. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Vancho.8750]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So you don't think Anet nerfed exceptional classes and that's why FH should be baseline and not nerfed? Do you pay attention the patch notes and the game? Exceptional or not, the arguments other people are presenting to make FH baseline can been seen as a reason nerf it. It's astounding that the self-application of exceptional would make you think believe FH nerf could happen here when it's probably MORE likely than making it baseline. 

Stop arguing for the sake of it. You are going in circles someone already answered this 5 times, go read it again. Also read my essay about it there is an explanation there. 

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

 someone already answered this 5 times

 I'm not asking a question, so whatever 'answer' is being given '5 times' doesn't really seem applicable. I'm telling you that being exceptional is irrelevant here, especially if it's a label players apply. We have LOTS of examples of Anet nerfing 'exceptional' cases on have-not classes. There isn't ANYTHING exceptional about what is going on here. You think warrior is the first have-not class to ever exist in this game? That have-not classes are exceptions from nerfs? The answer is no to both.

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[cryorion.9532]

19 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So you don't think Anet can't nerf FH because warrior is exceptional and so that leads to the conclusion FH should be baseline? Do you pay attention the patch notes and the game? Exceptional or not, the arguments other people are presenting to make FH baseline can been seen as a reason nerf it, and Anet has nerfed 'exceptional' classes in the past. It's astounding that the self-application of exceptional label would make you think believe FH nerf couldn't happen here when it's probably MORE likely than making it baseline. 

You are very underestimating FH's functionality compared to previously nerfed "exceptional cases" and even called it irrelevant (so far you've used only VP as an example). If Anet nerfs Fast Hands, they will basically destroy all competetive builds, just so people can "enjoy" more options - builds which are lacking, which is nonsense. So unless Anet compensates for FH nerf, they will significantly degrade warrior profession since most builds use Discipline traitline.