A "PvE Only" Spec is a Failed Spec.

[Linnael.1069]

I know this will be controversial since the majority of players only play PvE, but I ask that when you are giving feedback and people have legitimate concerns about other game modes, do not try and hit back with the common refrain "But it's good in PvE though".

PvE Viability is literally the bare minimum for a spec. Anet doesn't have to do anything but increase damage numbers (which can even be mode split) to make anything PvE viable. There are plenty of successful specs which are powerful in PvE and also dominant in other modes (FB, Scourge, Ren, Holo, Tempest, the list goes on.) 

Some of the new specs really need a lot of help in other modes, like Virtuoso and Bladesworn or Catalyst to a lesser extent. It's not ok to just say "This is only meant for PvE" as if that solves their issues. And any older specs that don't pass this bar should be fixed as well.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Linnael.1069

[Obtena.7952]

The idea that specs should be applicable in all game modes is not really controversial. What is controversial is that people think their crystal balls are really good and they know what should be fixed before it even hits the game so it can be properly exercised to see what is REALLY the problems that need to be fixed. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Linnael.1069]

What do you think is the point of a beta if not to suggest changes before something hits the game? Also this doesn't even seem relevant to the thread?

Edited December 2, 2021 by Linnael.1069

[Doctor Hide.6345]

Here is my take on this. Designing a spec where it also does good in WvW and PvP messes the spec up a lot in PvE as well until a balance is found due to the different natures of fighting people verses PvE mobs. I am not talking numbers here, but I am more talking design philosophy. The specs you mentioned went through some changes before they were balanced on both ends which took time and resources. So, I don't blame Anet for making more PvE designed specs to save on that when that is where the majority is most of the time.

 

I know it is the answer a lot don't want to hear, but it is the truth on the matter regardless.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Linnael.1069 said:

What do you think is the point of a Beta if not to suggest changes before something hits the game?

That's exactly what the point of Beta is ... did you even read what I said? You realize Beta IS in the game testing ... right?

Edited December 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The idea that specs should be applicable in all game modes is not really controversial. What is controversial is that people think their crystal balls are really good and they know what should be fixed before it even hits the game so it can be properly exercised to see what is REALLY the problems that need to be fixed. 

You always write ridiculous things but this one is in my "Top 10 Delusions of Obtena" list for sure.
People can already see a problems just from reading a kitten patch notes without even playing the game itself, it's not rocket science, it's simply experience and already obtained knowledge from the past, nothing beyond that.
The only thing that need to be checked are possible bugs and unwanted/hidden interactions which would miss devs eye.

[Linnael.1069]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That's exactly what the point of Beta is ... I mean did you even read what I said?

You implied this was inappropriate, giving the total opposite impression of what you state now. Honestly based on your other posts you seem like a bad troll...

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

You always write ridiculous things but this one is in my "Top 10 Delusions of Obtena" list for sure.
People can already see a problems just from reading a kitten patch notes without even playing the game itself, it's not rocket science, it's simply experience and already obtained knowledge from the past, nothing beyond that.
The only thing that need to be checked are possible bugs and unwanted/hidden interactions which would miss devs eye.

See, that's a great example of what I'm saying. What is relevant isn't what you read. What is relevant is how it works ingame. 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

See, that's a great example of what I'm saying. What is relevant isn't what you read. What is relevant is how it works ingame. 

You think we can't trust patchnotes then, and have to assume that in game it will work differently than described?

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You think we can't trust patchnotes then, and have to assume that in game it will work differently than described?

What I think is that if you want to know how something works to properly assess it, you have to play it, in the context it was meant to be played. That's what I think. There isn't a place for reading tea leaves here. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

See, that's a great example of what I'm saying. What is relevant isn't what you read. What is relevant is how it works ingame. 

That's bs on wheels. Patch notes are great source of information how something will be garbage in the game, like Catalyst. I didn't even have to test it in game to know that is just punching bag in PvP and WvW and the only usability it has is in PvE Golem Benchmarks.
Just because you're incapable of such feats doesn't mean rest of the community is on the same level.
BTW. keep it up, you're almost at 10k posts of bs.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

That's bs on wheels. 

I love how people are ACTUALLY advocating we don't need to play the game to give proper feedback on how it works. BRAVO. 

Predicting things without playing them aren't 'feats' ... it's called guessing. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What I think is that if you want to know how something works, you have to play it. That's what I think

Sure. If you lack experience. If you do have enough experience however, most of the time after you have actually seen in game it's going to match your earlier estimations. In fact, this beta pretty much proves it - most of the issues with the changes were indeed noticed even before it started. Contrary to your earlier (and current) disbelief in players' ability to spot obvious issues.

If you look out of the window and see it's raining, you don't have to actually go outside to know beforehand that when you do, you will get wet.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure. If you lack experience. If you do have enough experience however, most of the time after you have actually seen in game it's going to match your earlier estimations. In fact, this beta pretty much proves it - most of the issues with the changes were indeed noticed even before it started. Contrary to your earlier (and current) disbelief in players' ability to spot obvious issues.

Unfortunately for MOST players, they don't have that experience, because it's not just about what ONE class gets or doesn't get, it's about how it interacts with everything in the game. EVERYTHING ... including the other unrealeased Especs. 

 

But sure, tell me how those tea leaves look. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I love how people are ACTUALLY advocating we don't need to play the game to give proper feedback on how it works. BRAVO. 

You're just arguing to just argue, why are you even doing that?
And no, you actually don't need to play the game to give a proper feedback on how it works, not in the slightest.
We've seen on preview classes, we've got information on skills and traits and that's all needed to give feedback.
In the first preview I've already seen how garbage Catalyst will be in game. I also saw other e-speces and problems with them from get-go. It's not kitten rocket science, you're simply incapable of such easy task, get over it.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Unfortunately for MOST players, they don't' have that experience, because it's not just about what ONE class gets or doesn't get, it's about how it interacts with everything in the game. 

And yet for the most part the early feedbacks based on patchnotes only was pretty much spot on. So, perhaps those players that do give feedback are more experienced that you think they are.

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

No I'm actually not arguing to argue. I'm arguing because the idea we can predict things without playing them is actually stupid. 

Interestingly enough, that ability to predict things before they happen is what our whole civilization is build on.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And yet for the most part the early feedbacks based on patchnotes only was pretty much spot on. So, perhaps those players that do give feedback are more experienced that you think they are.

That's ancedotal to me. if 10000 people complain about things, someone is bound to be 'spot on'. Even Anet doesn't know how the specs will perform. That's why they make changes after they release them ... sometimes YEARS after. Even Anet's tea leaves don't work to good. 

The fact is that nothing beats playing the game to understand it ... unless of course there is an agenda to push. A little like this thread ... pushing an agenda to get Anet to pay more attention to specs the OP thinks Anet 'ignored' for competitive game modes. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact is that nothing beats playing the game to understand it ... unless of course there is an agenda to push. 

That's not what you claim. You claim that the only way to know things is to experience them, and that no prediction is even possible. You basically seem to think players are unable to use their brains at all.

Personally, i find that to be quite offensive.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

I think at this rate with how things are going between you three this thread is probably going to get closed.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You basically seem to think players are unable to use their brains at all.

No, the issue is that people are ONLY using their brains and since this is a complex problem because of it's interactions, it's not likely they get the right answer. That needs to be supplemented or even surpassed by gameplay. 

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's not what you claim. You claim that the only way to know things is to experience them, and that no prediction is even possible. You basically seem to think players are unable to use their brains at all.

Personally, i find that to be quite offensive

Imma throw it out there Ur arguing with a troll. They're gonna fight against you on every attempt to try and suggest balancing speccs to be competitively balanced against one another. 

Yet so far as I can tell hasn't exactly been able to say exactly how making them competitively balanced against one another affects them in any negative way. 

I'm afraid some players will sandbag. And vocalize opinons on content they don't play. And want "optimal play" to not exist for litterally no reason. Ive learnt replying to them isn't worth while. 

Just ignore what they're writing pretty much 😂 because they will never stop reply against you. This person has had a problem with litterally every post wanting change. Proclaiming we are a minority while unable to find a single player who agrees with them 😂

[Andy.5981]

Why? Why for the love of God do people continue to engage with this individual. Don't reply. they are a pox on the forums along with one or two other arguementative individuals who probably would start an argument with their own reflections in a mirror. Just ignore them.

[Avatara.1042]

Put Obtena on ignore.

And yeah, the Catalyst does high DPS against stationary PvE targets, through a kittenous frantic rotation, so Anet will probably call it a success.

[Zenith.7301]

Let's make a deal. You can have your PvP viable spec when they bother to make Spellbreaker a PvE viable spec.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Saying a spec is PVE only is to imply that it is not good in any other circumstances:

Not decap

Not +1

Not Skirmishing

Not Bunkering

Not 2v2

Not solo roaming WvW

Not small scale WvW

Not large scale WvW

 

To say that a spec is bad at all of these things against every matchup is quite a lot to prove.