Mechanist: Just give the mech an Amulet Slot

[AsheR.1687]

The stat inheritance traits are one of the worst features of Mechanist. It gives the illusion of mech customization, but in reality it just forces a build on to your mech. There is a power, condi and support build and you have to build them the same way. I'm not sure if this was intended for balance or truly meant as a customization option, but in execution it is anti-fun. 

 

Please add an amulet slot for the mech, like PvP, that works in all game modes. This would allow so much more customization and make the mechanist far more dynamic. The mech and character could be built for separate roles. For example, the engineer could focus on condi and the mech could be built for boon support or vice versa. Without core mechanics like toolbelt skills, a dps engi with support mech would still fall short of the dps of a focused class. To compete you would still need full dps mech and player. I don't think there is issue with balance, especially when you consider the mech can be destroyed and put on CD.

 

If an amulet isn't possible....please just remove the stat traits and give it 100% inheritance.

 

[Lynx.9058]

One of the biggest issues I have still is that you can't build your mech to compliment you.  Having the mech copy your own traits means you can't build it to be a tank and yourself for damage, or tank yourself with mace/shield and use the mech for damage.  It always has to be the same 'build' as the mechanist, which just doesn't work.

At least before the beta 4 changes it would draw attention by having higher toughness than the mechanist due to the way their stat traits worked then... now it seems like I'm always the target of enemies and the mech is just along for the ride.  Meanwhile, the mechanist him/her self is just an underpowered core engineer that doesn't benefit from kits/toolkits the way even core does.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Lynx.9058

[Dakiaris.2798]

Honestly I think this would make it easier to balance in the long run since the mech would have the flat 1k stats baseline then the set stats of the amulet.

 

The amount of work they would need to do to make it work this way would be massive though.

 

Honestly I still feel like more power should be shifted to the engineer themselves.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Dakiaris.2798

[Aravind.9610]

2 minutes ago, Dakiaris.2798 said:

 

Honestly I still feel like more power should be shifted to the engineer themselves.

How much power need the mech lose before being called a ranger pet? Honestly, they made a decent summoner pet spec for once and people yelling its too passive when its not. At least not in PvE. Maybe in PvP its hard for you people to fight against an AI enemy while ignoring the actual player who does nothing relevant without the pet anyway but that is no reason for the mech to be nerfed in PvE too.

[Dakiaris.2798]

Honestly I think 1/2 of the power should be the engineer and 1/2 of it should be from the mech. The mech is already more impactful than a rangers pet not just from damage but the actives being more impactful.

 

I wouldn't mind if the power they shifted to the engineer through triggered golem abilities similar to how they did with rocket punch. Like honestly I feel like they should bring back jade siphon but link it to weapon slot 4 and delink the rocket fist from the mace and instead have that as weapon slot 3.

 

I didn't mean simply give the engineer more raw damage but I want the engineers abilities to feel more impactful and to feel more control over the mech instead of it just auto attacking while the f keys are on cooldown.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Dakiaris.2798

[Aravind.9610]

They already are more impactful in PvE. The engineer does most of the work anyway with the mech only doing like 20% of it. And even that doesn't come easy with all the piano I have to play due to the nerfs from last beta. And on top of that now I should keep track of mech's skills too since I "want more control over it?" No thanks. If anything the mech should do more on its own rather than rely on my input.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Aravind.9610

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Mech customization should not be tied into your traits and your gear. It makes the class incredibly simple and players only have the illusion of choice. I dont hate the idea of AI focused classes (outside of pvp), but there has to be a high level of customization otherwise the gameplay is entirely 1 dimensional and gets boring after a week. Right now you are losing 1/3 of your class just to have a mech that copies exactly what you gave up in the first place.

[Swizzle.7982]

How about we just take a lesson from ranger pets?

Have 4 or 5 different mechs to choose from and give each one different stats. It's a system they can expand on, like ranger pets by adding new mech types in the future, it fulfils the desire for more cosmetic variation in mechs, and lets players choose a mech with the stat combination they want to use.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

It could be a new slot for all professions, to put an unique profession-exclusive piece of gear that does something different for each specialization.

 

For ranger, it could be a pet collar.

 

For engineer, it could affect toolbelt skills, and for mechanict, affect the mech instead.

 

For necromancer, it could affect your stats in shroud.

 

For mesmer, it could affect your clones.

 

And so on.

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

15 hours ago, MithranArkanere.8957 said:

It could be a new slot for all professions, to put an unique profession-exclusive piece of gear that does something different for each specialization.

 

For ranger, it could be a pet collar.

 

For engineer, it could affect toolbelt skills, and for mechanict, affect the mech instead.

 

For necromancer, it could affect your stats in shroud.

 

For mesmer, it could affect your clones.

 

And so on.

This is not actually as crazy as it first seams. It could add a bit of build diversity but it doesn't actually need to involve adding a whole new slot, it could replace the Breathing apparatus slot. 
There is no point to their being a separate Breathing apparatus slot, it is just another piece of Armor that people forget about till they're in water and they lose their 6th rune bonus. There is no legendary BA so no issue with Legendary Armoury and BA skins could be applied as purely cosmetic items.

This would be a good step to improving underwater play too. 

 

For Guardian it could affect spirit weapons.

 

For Thief it could offer bonuses when using venoms.

 

For Elementalists, bonuses when using summoned weapons (they need a boost and the recharge time halfing)

 

For Engineer I would actually say also affect Turrets (They need some real attention too)

[Swizzle.7982]

On 12/2/2021 at 5:20 PM, Swizzle.7982 said:

How about we just take a lesson from ranger pets?

Have 4 or 5 different mechs to choose from and give each one different stats. It's a system they can expand on, like ranger pets by adding new mech types in the future, it fulfils the desire for more cosmetic variation in mechs, and lets players choose a mech with the stat combination they want to use.

 

Just to add on to what I said previously - Obviously that sounds like a lot of work to make different mechs. But we already have three different models of mech (since the arms change), so already we have three forms that could be made into "pets" to select, the same way a ranger would select between the different pets they have. There doesn't need to be a whole new system of stat attribution or whatever. Just three mechs to choose from, each with different stats. This way you can make the traits more interesting and allow way more build diversity (An engi focused on power could take a support golem for instance).

Edited December 3, 2021 by Swizzle.7982

[Adrianna.3092]

1 hour ago, Swizzle.7982 said:

This way you can make the traits more interesting and allow way more build diversity (An engi focused on power could take a support golem for instance).

yeah but... this was the EXACT reason they did it this way in the first place... they didn't want this to happen.

[Swizzle.7982]

17 minutes ago, Adrianna.3092 said:

yeah but... this was the EXACT reason they did it this way in the first place... they didn't want this to happen.

Then they should really question their current design philosophy a bit more. Because if this is the case they might as well remove the trait lines entirely. If you have condi stats then you automatically get the condi line, if you have support stats you get the support line, etc. That's not what traits should be, and by extension, what the mech should be. Traits are, or at least were, supposed to be interesting ways to build your character.

Besides, the main thing that needs fixing are the stats. For instance the condi trait line lets your mech inherit explosives traits. Those traits which cause conditions trigger on critical hits. Except if you choose the condi trait line your mech basically can't crit. It's issues like this that are caused by limiting traits and attaching mech stats to traits. 

Compare this to how a ranger chooses their pets. It's the pets that have the stats. You can choose a pet that can tank, or a pet that supports, or a pet that deals condition damage. Your traits don't lock you into having one specific type of pet.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Swizzle.7982

[Adrianna.3092]

yeah but... you have to keep in mind the mech is MUCH stronger than a ranger pet... having a power pet while your a tanky/support build would mean you could rival other classes dps while being MUCH tankier.. something a ranger cannot do...

 

now they obviously didn't go about doing it the right way but i can see why they did it like this...

[Swizzle.7982]

33 minutes ago, Adrianna.3092 said:

 you have to keep in mind the mech is MUCH stronger than a ranger pet

Is it though? I mean, sure the pet might be bulkier, but we're missing a lot of things that make rangers effective (like pet swap).

Mechanist also removes a lot of the engineers power as it doesn't have access to toolbelt skills. And lets be honest, Anet designed a lot of engineer skills to be somewhat sub-par on purpose because each skill the engineer gets is essentially two skills. But with the removal of the toolbelt the engi is left with only the sub-par skills. That's what the mech is compensating for.

Engineers from day one were designed to be the jack of all trades class. They should be able to spec into condi damage and have a support mech if they want. Sure, that's probably never going to be as strong as going all in on condi - but that's the trade off. Currently there is no trade off because there's no interesting choices to be made. Pick all top, all middle, or all bottom  (even then they don't synergise well) based on your stats - or get no stats. That's you choice.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Swizzle.7982

[Lynx.9058]

On 12/2/2021 at 10:20 AM, Swizzle.7982 said:

How about we just take a lesson from ranger pets?

Have 4 or 5 different mechs to choose from and give each one different stats. It's a system they can expand on, like ranger pets by adding new mech types in the future, it fulfils the desire for more cosmetic variation in mechs, and lets players choose a mech with the stat combination they want to use.

And you can add an f4 to swap mechs, and have aquatic mechs then!

 

I actually like this option.   Give us a power damage mech, condi damage mech, tanky/taunting mech, support/boon gen mech, and aquatic versions for each.

[UNOwen.7132]

On 12/3/2021 at 10:12 PM, Adrianna.3092 said:

yeah but... this was the EXACT reason they did it this way in the first place... they didn't want this to happen.

Except thats the sad thing. They *did*. They explicitely said we would get to customise the mechs moves as we want. Now we dont.

[Zzik.5873]

On 12/2/2021 at 12:20 PM, Swizzle.7982 said:

How about we just take a lesson from ranger pets?

Have 4 or 5 different mechs to choose from and give each one different stats. It's a system they can expand on, like ranger pets by adding new mech types in the future, it fulfils the desire for more cosmetic variation in mechs, and lets players choose a mech with the stat combination they want to use.

Honestly, yes! This would fix my problem I have with the mech stats!

[Aravind.9610]

On 12/2/2021 at 10:50 PM, Swizzle.7982 said:

How about we just take a lesson from ranger pets?

Have 4 or 5 different mechs to choose from and give each one different stats. It's a system they can expand on, like ranger pets by adding new mech types in the future, it fulfils the desire for more cosmetic variation in mechs, and lets players choose a mech with the stat combination they want to use.

No thanks! I want a customizable mech that copies my current stats, not a ranger pet which is gonna be trash anyway.

[Swizzle.7982]

5 hours ago, Aravind.9610 said:

No thanks! I want a customizable mech that copies my current stats, not a ranger pet which is gonna be trash anyway.

Then just choose a pet that has the same stats as you?

[Aravind.9610]

Just now, Swizzle.7982 said:

Then just choose a pet that has the same stats as you?

No we can't because the pet will NOT have the same stats as me, it will only have fixed stats based on what pet I chose, just like ranger pets. I could have 2000 condition damage and the pet will have something like 1600. This also leads to balance issues in PVP where you can have a dps mech with a bunker mechanist healing/supporting it, and being unkillable itself, which in turn will again lead to mech nerf because it does "way too much damage." All in all having fixed stat pets will lead to balancing disaster and nerf after nerf till we get a basically useless traitline called mechanist. Better to have the mech have the same stats as us with a power stat nerf in PVP only so it doesn't get overpowered.

[Swizzle.7982]

20 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

No we can't because the pet will NOT have the same stats as me, it will only have fixed stats based on what pet I chose, just like ranger pets. I could have 2000 condition damage and the pet will have something like 1600. This also leads to balance issues in PVP where you can have a dps mech with a bunker mechanist healing/supporting it, and being unkillable itself, which in turn will again lead to mech nerf because it does "way too much damage." All in all having fixed stat pets will lead to balancing disaster and nerf after nerf till we get a basically useless traitline called mechanist. Better to have the mech have the same stats as us with a power stat nerf in PVP only so it doesn't get overpowered.

How in the world will fixed stats be harder to balance around compared to percentage stats of "whatever gear you have"? (Which by the way, is always going to be the same in PvP since YOUR OWN STATS are constrained this was as well - you literally equip an amulet that dictates your stats, so the traits that give your mech a % of your stats will always result in very specific and fixed numbers). Essentially all my idea does is take that type of PvP choice and move it into PvE, while also disentangling this choice from the traits you pick (allowing the traits to actually do something half decent without pigeonholing the player into a very specific set of traits).

Edited December 5, 2021 by Swizzle.7982

[Kodama.6453]

1 minute ago, Swizzle.7982 said:

How in the world will fixed stats be harder to balance around compared to percentage stats of "whatever gear you have"? (Which by the way, is always going to be the same in PvP since YOUR OWN STATS are constrained this was as well - you literally equip an amulet that dictates your stats, so the traits that give you mech a % of your stats will always result in very specific and fixed numbers). Essentially all my idea does is take that type of PvP choice and move it into PvE, while also disentangling this choice from the traits you pick (allowing the traits to actually do something half decent without pigeonholing the player into a very specific set of traits).

As they pointed out, you would be able to play (for example) a full tank mechanist while using a full damage pet.

This, btw, is the exact reason why turrets got nerfed into the dirt. Because the damage from turrets is independent from our own damage and stats, meaning that we were able to play tanky stats like clerics or other amulets, while our turrets were still ensuring a constant stream of damage to the enemy. Our job was just to survive and CC enemies while the turrets whittled them down.

This playstyle got considered unhealthy, hence why turrets saw nerf after nerf until they became the joke they are today.

This is the same fate the mech would have to face if we let it have an own independent stat list/amulet.

The only reason why the mech is allowed to be as strong as it is currently is because it uses our stats. It just deals damage if we pick damage, it just is tanky if we pick tankiness, etc.

[Swizzle.7982]

17 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

this is the same fate the mech would have to face if we let it have an own independent stat list/amulet.

Lets be honest, the mech is going to be nerfed to hell in PvP anyway no matter what, because no one is going to enjoy playing against an AI that has any chance of killing them. I'm of the opinion that primary balance should always be done with PvE in mind, since that's what most people are playing. If something doesn't work in PvP then put restrictions in place there (i.e., restrict pet choice based on the amulet the player takes).

That was how PvP worked in GW1 - the only reason they said they didn't want to do it in GW2 was because it meant players had to potentially learn two variations of a skill, but come on, that's really not a high bar. And in PvP maybe there should be a few bars to pass anyway...

[Aravind.9610]

17 minutes ago, Swizzle.7982 said:

Lets be honest, the mech is going to be nerfed to hell in PvP anyway no matter what, because no one is going to enjoy playing against an AI that has any chance of killing them. I'm of the opinion that primary balance should always be done with PvE in mind, since that's what most people are playing. If something doesn't work in PvP then put restrictions in place there (i.e., restrict pet choice based on the amulet the player takes).

That was how PvP worked in GW1 - the only reason they said they didn't want to do it in GW2 was because it meant players had to potentially learn two variations of a skill, but come on, that's really not a high bar. And in PvP maybe there should be a few bars to pass anyway...

In PVE the mech is fine as it is right now. It relies on boons from other players to do its damage, which makes it very balanced, since you can't access the full potential of the mech by yourself. The only things I would change are that mech inherits 100% of whatever stats we have, and move the boon copying for mech onto a minor trait just like it is with ranger. Fixed stats here mean nothing, since we want the mech to be doing either power or condi dps, or support. And for all these roles WE need to be wearing gear with same stats as mech to be useful anyway. It isn't like if you just use a pet with heal stats, while you use condi gear, makes you any good at end game content. It actually makes you worse, since you aren't specializing in dps or support. For open world, now the mech may not be able to solo stuff like it did before, but that's actually a good thing.

And please don't compare ranger pets to the mech again saying they have fixed stats and rangers can make it work. Rangers can use 2 pets, they have access to only one pet skill, and their playstyle doesn't really revolve around the pet. In fact their best dps class is currently the soulbeast which gets rid of the pet entirely for a damage boost and their heal class is druid which, again, doesn't rely on the pet. Whereas mechanist, being an elite spec, has the entire gameplay revolving around the mech in one way or another no matter what you choose. The mech would simply be weak without our stats to back it up, just like core ranger pets are.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Aravind.9610