Mechanist: Just give the mech an Amulet Slot

[Swizzle.7982]

19 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

In PVE the mech is fine as it is right now. It relies on boons from other players to do its damage, which makes it very balanced, since you can't access the full potential of the mech by yourself. 

That's just... stupid. By that definition literally everything in the game is fine because if you play with some other class that can buff it, it's fine. Balance is based on the individual class and what it can do, or what it can offer other classes - not on what other classes can potentially do for it.

[Diovid.9506]

7 minutes ago, Swizzle.7982 said:

That's just... stupid. By that definition literally everything in the game is fine because if you play with some other class that can buff it, it's fine. Balance is based on the individual class and what it can do, or what it can offer other classes - not on what other classes can potentially do for it.

I strongly disagree.  GW2 should aim to be the most balanced in group settings, anything from meta events to fractals to raids to wvw to pvp involves allies. In that sense true solo content is the exception and therefore should not be the focus of balance. Yes the consequence of that way of thinking is that different specs perform to different degrees when playing completely solo, I don't think that's a problem though, nor do I think it would be worth the effort to change that. 

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Diovid.9506 said:

I strongly disagree.  GW2 should aim to be the most balanced in group settings, anything from meta events to fractals to raids to wvw to pvp involves allies. In that sense true solo content is the exception and therefore should not be the focus of balance. Yes the consequence of that way of thinking is that different specs perform to different degrees when playing completely solo, I don't think that's a problem though, nor do I think it would be worth the effort to change that. 

Completely agree with that.

Many people also already apply this train of thought when talking about balance, tbh. Like, if we are discussing the different dps benchmarks for classes, then these benchmarks are basically always discussed with the context of permanent boons like 25 stacks of might, alacrity and quickness being present. Yet almost no one (if at all) is able to keep these boons up permanently themselves, especially not while playing a dps focused build.

Group play should be the base for discussing and balancing classes. Of course, if a class becomes TOO self sufficient, that's also a problem to discuss, but this is basically just a rare special case then.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[AsheR.1687]

I'm not sure why there is so much concern about balancing for separate stats on this thread.

 

Let's look at what the engineer has to give up just to use a mech:

• traitline (mechanist traits are mech only)
• toolbelt skills

In PvE, the mechanist and mech will use the same stats or two complimentary stats for the same role to be optimal. A berserker mech and minstrel engineer is not going to somehow break PvE or any other split role build. The engineer gives up too much to use the mech to fully function as a separate role. The mech AI and current abilities make it incapable of performing a player role on it's own. Also, you would lose benefits from traitlines for either the mech or player based on what role the traits are supporting. Ie focus on a minstrel healer engineer with healing traits and the pet loses dps traits from other lines. The mech is also going to spend a lot of time dead with the current ai and only the elite signet to save it. There is no way the pet will bring enough dps on it's own to secure a slot in any group content.

 

In PvP, we already have the ranger which is similar, especially the druid which has basically capitalized on this since their release. The difference being a ranger is still essentially a full class without a pet. They have 2 weapons and 3 traitlines to benefit from even if they lose their pet. The mechanist on the other hand, is a kitten class with 2 traitlines, 1 weapon and no toolbelt skills. If they fully focus on their pet with a split role they have no trait benefit for their role, 1 weapon and no toolbelt skills. The mechanist pet may be stronger than ranger pets, but it needs to be otherwise the mechanist would have no ability to compete with other classes. The core engineer is not designed to lose a traitline/toolbelt skills and still be competitive. On top of all this, PvP is still balanced independently of PvE, so they always have the option to adjust specifically for each game mode.

Edited December 5, 2021 by AsheR.1687

[Aravind.9610]

2 hours ago, AsheR.1687 said:

The mech is also going to spend a lot of time dead with the current ai and only the elite signet to save it. There is no way the pet will bring enough dps on it's own to secure a slot in any group content.

And yet I played it just fine in fractals and raids easily without the mech dying or losing competitive dps. Plenty of people have. Yes the mech doesn't do enough damage on its own, but its not meant to. It isn't meant to do something on its own. It is meant to work in tandem with the mechanist who is also doing dps/support (depending on our gear), rather than like ranger pets which do their own things while the ranger does his own thing. That is part of what makes the mech fun. It is a true pet class unlike ranger which was a mess right from the start. I say this again with the utmost respect: Do NOT compare the mechanist to ranger ever. Completely different classes, completely different mechanics.

This is a video by Lady Kitty on the raid boss Cairn. Not even a complex rotation yet very effective without being overpowered. I tried it myself at a few bosses and it works.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Aravind.9610

[SeTect.5918]

34 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

And yet I played it just fine in fractals and raids easily without the mech dying or losing competitive dps.

I was not able to do fractals with the mechanist but I saw my mech getting melted by the "Tarnished Traitor" in Auric basin in like 10 seconds, then i resummoned it with Overclock Signet and it died in like 3 seconds.

The thing is: Yes the mech can survive, but once it gets in the aoe circles of any boss, it gets melted in seconds and u ll stay there without ur mech.
Yes you still have barrier without mech, but u lose ur f1-f3 which is still a lot dmg lost. And your mech wont tank for u then anymore.

The problem is simply that crash down still has a far too high cooldown if the mech dies.

Edited December 5, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Aravind.9610]

19 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I was not able to do fractals with the mechanist but I saw my mech getting melted by the "Tarnished Traitor" in Auric basin in like 10 seconds, then i resummoned it with Overclock Signet and it died in like 3 seconds.

The thing is: Yes the mech can survive, but once it gets in the aoe circles of any boss, it gets melted in seconds and u ll stay there without ur mech.
Yes you still have barrier without mech, but u lose ur f1-f3 which is still a lot dmg lost. And your mech wont tank for u then anymore.

And that's a bad thing because? The mech was never meant to tank for you. It is meant to do part of what you are already doing yourself, be it dps or support. It is upto to you to pay attention where it is standing and use recall or shift signet to bring it back to safety if you need to. I don't have context for what gear you were using or what skills, neither do I know the Tarnished Traitor very well in the first place other than that it is meant to be group content and not meant to be soloed. And like I already said the mech is not meant to take damage for you so you can solo stuff.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Aravind.9610

[MrForz.1953]

The mech ignores some mechanics just like the other pets and takes much less AOE damage from attacks from mobs that aren't directly targeting the mech, so the survival is less of a concern, normally it will likely be more troublesome when soloing than when raiding.

 

I do agree however that the latest changes have been VERY restrictive in build possibilities, for a spec refered as a "multitool" there are even less features or synergies in relation to gear to explore than Scrapper.

[Aravind.9610]

1 minute ago, MrForz.1953 said:

I do agree however that the latest changes have been VERY restrictive in build possibilities, for a spec refered as a "multitool" there are even less features or synergies in relation to gear to explore than Scrapper.

I agree that it is restrictive, but adding fixed stats is not the way to go about fixing the issue. Better to have the mech inherit whatever stats we are using ourselves so we can mix and match traits. The mech is strong BECAUSE it inherits our stats, and losing that would make it very weak.

[AsheR.1687]

49 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

And yet I played it just fine in fractals and raids easily without the mech dying or losing competitive dps. Plenty of people have. Yes the mech doesn't do enough damage on its own, but its not meant to. It isn't meant to do something on its own. It is meant to work in tandem with the mechanist who is also doing dps/support (depending on our gear), rather than like ranger pets which do their own things while the ranger does his own thing. That is part of what makes the mech fun. It is a true pet class unlike ranger which was a mess right from the start. I say this again with the utmost respect: Do NOT compare the mechanist to ranger ever. Completely different classes, completely different mechanics.

 

 

I'm not sure what your point is in regards to selectable stats. I compared to ranger because several posts did earlier and I was speaking to those. I never implied that the mech should do enough damage on it's own. My point is as a dps if you lose your pet you significantly lose dps, a penalty most classes don't have to deal with. 

 

I also never said the mech can't make it through a fractal or raid without dying, but it is a significant risk. I can play dps without a healer, but I have to be far more aware of mechanics and I can be punished if I'm not. The pet can't adjust to mechanics. If you don't have a healer to support the pet, the pet is a liability to the entire group because if it dies you lose a huge portion of dps. The pet is even a risk with a healer. It's all chance if the pet makes it through the fight. Not only is the class practically tied to a healer it's just a roll of the dice that most groups aren't going to want. If you had selectable stats you could possibly offset this by selecting trailblazer's for your mech, as an example. Then, as a cdps, the player can go vipers and the mech can still provide dps with a little more survivability. It only provides more options and doesn't change the current mech design at all.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Aravind.9610 said:

It is meant to work in tandem with the mechanist who is also doing dps/support (depending on our gear), rather than like ranger pets which do their own things while the ranger does his own thing. 

 

What exactly are you doing in tandem? There is no synergy between pet and engineer other than mace 3. You are either both dps or both support because of stat requirement. If you had selectable stats, you could support as engineer and let your pet focus on dps and as you said earlier this wouldn't be op because the pet doesn't equal player dps on it's own. It might help to offset that core engineer is not a very useful support on their own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aravind.9610]

18 minutes ago, AsheR.1687 said:

I also never said the mech can't make it through a fractal or raid without dying, but it is a significant risk.

What risk? As someone else pointed out, mech takes less damage from things that aren't directly targeting it, just like any other pet/minion/illusion etc. I said I made it through fractals EASILY without mech dying. I didn't even have to recall it at all ever.

 

18 minutes ago, AsheR.1687 said:

What exactly are you doing in tandem? There is no synergy between pet and engineer other than mace 3. You are either both dps or both support because of stat requirement. If you had selectable stats, you could support as engineer and let your pet focus on dps and as you said earlier this wouldn't be op because the pet doesn't equal player dps on it's own. It might help to offset that core engineer is not a very useful support on their own.

It isn't about being op. It is about being useful. We CANNOT give perma alacrity on our own without the mech, just like the mech CANNOT support by itself. So having a support engineer with a dps mech is useless in PVE. This is where the synergy really is. Don't assume just because one skill got linked to mace 3 means that skill is the only synergy between the mech and the engineer. Just like having a support mech with a dps engineer. The engineer is doing less dps and the mech not supporting properly due to lack of synergy. Like I said the mechanist and the mech are meant to work together to achieve a goal. Think of the mech and mechanist as both one half of a class each. Together they make the entire class.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Aravind.9610

[Kuma.1503]

I'm still not a fan of how they did stat inheritence, but It's not as bad in practice as it looks on paper. 

It looks like Arena Net went nuts with the Mech's base coefficients because you can hit some very high numbers with the mech regardless of what gear you're using. You won't be operating at 100% without the appropriate trait, but the Mech is looking very solid at a baseline level... 

As a full minstrel mechanist with support traits, I was still pulling anywhere from 4-6k dps, most of it coming from my mech. That's not good damage by any means, but that's very impressive considering I had no offensive stats for my mech to inherit. 

In the event that the Mech gets nerfed again. I do hope that they rework stat inheritance. For now it seems the mech functions fine at a baseline (without inherited stats) regardless of what traits you pick. 

[AsheR.1687]

On 12/6/2021 at 1:42 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

I'm still not a fan of how they did stat inheritence, but It's not as bad in practice as it looks on paper. 

It looks like Arena Net went nuts with the Mech's base coefficients because you can hit some very high numbers with the mech regardless of what gear you're using. You won't be operating at 100% without the appropriate trait, but the Mech is looking very solid at a baseline level... 

As a full minstrel mechanist with support traits, I was still pulling anywhere from 4-6k dps, most of it coming from my mech. That's not good damage by any means, but that's very impressive considering I had no offensive stats for my mech to inherit. 

In the event that the Mech gets nerfed again. I do hope that they rework stat inheritance. For now it seems the mech functions fine at a baseline (without inherited stats) regardless of what traits you pick. 

 

Do you know how 4-6k compares to a druid pet? I'm not really sure been awhile since I played ranger. I would think it's still close to that.

 

I'm not too sure how well the mech scales with stats. I haven't tested the exact numbers. I'm okay with high baseline coefficients and less scaling as long as stats are still meaningful. My biggest problem is wasted stats and being limited by the build. For example, if I go rabid with a condition build then the mech can inherit condition and expertise, but precision is wasted. 

[Aravind.9610]

13 minutes ago, AsheR.1687 said:

Do you know how 4-6k compares to a druid pet? I'm not really sure been awhile since I played ranger. I would think it's still close to that.

Maybe it is, but the difference is the mech can achieve much higher dps when you are wearing full dps gear because it inherits stats instead of having fixed ones. Unlike the druid pet which stays the same whether you wear full dps gear or full healing gear.

 

13 minutes ago, AsheR.1687 said:

I'm not too sure how well the mech scales with stats. I haven't tested the exact numbers. I'm okay with high baseline coefficients and less scaling as long as stats are still meaningful. My biggest problem is wasted stats and being limited by the build. For example, if I go rabid with a condition build then the mech can inherit condition and expertise, but precision is wasted. 

Something that can easily be fixed by mech inheriting ALL our gear stats as opposed to just some. Fixed stats won't help with this anyway.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Aravind.9610

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, AsheR.1687 said:

My biggest problem is wasted stats and being limited by the build. For example, if I go rabid with a condition build then the mech can inherit condition and expertise, but precision is wasted. 

This is probably one of the best arguments for reworking stat inheritence.  Depending on what build you're going for, this can be really annoying. 

Want to play a power boon mech with commander's  stats? Your precision goes to waste. Swap your mech to a power mech and the concentration goes to waste. It's too restrictive, which is counter intuitive when Mechanist is supposed to be a flexible specialization. In many ways, the trait design makes it feel like one of the most inflexible specializations.

Stat inheritance (and arguably boon inheritence) should just go on a minor trait. I understand that they wanted us to "customize" our mech based on which stats it inherits, but more often than not, it has the opposite effect where the mech feels incredibly static in which choices you're forced to take. It's not a good feeling. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Kuma.1503