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Public-instance Raids and Legendary armor


Minos.5168

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The existing 10-man raids really add a lot to Guild Wars lore in terms of story content that many people miss out on since they're intentionally challenging.

One great thing that Champions gave us is DRM tech and the public/private squad versions of Dragonstorm and Twisted Marionette. Since the AFK reward update, Dragonstorm is one of the most rewarding metas for time spent.

ANet should create public versions of the existing raids and put them on an alternating timer with Dragonstorm and Twisted Marionette (like the World Boss update that gave us the current event timers). Hopefully we eventually get the Battle for Lion's Arch as well, which would give us 10 different "raids".

Yes, larger groups would break mechanics intended for 10 players, but I feel like ANet could do a light balance pass. As far as rewards, ANet could slightly reduce loot tables for public versions (as Blizzard does) but still give the Divinations/Insights to allow more players to craft Legendary Armor.

Legendary crafting keeps the economy healthy as it's a huge mat sink (especially for 3 different armor sets). Further, the armor has been out since February 2017 (5 years prior to EoD launch) with plenty of opportunities for people to buy from raid sellers. It's a disadvantage for the game economy as a whole to gate the PvE-only armor behind content that isn't very accessible.

Edited by Minos.5168
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8 hours ago, Minos.5168 said:

Yes, larger groups would break mechanics intended for 10 players, but I feel like ANet could do a light balance pass. As far as rewards, ANet could slightly reduce loot tables for public versions (as Blizzard does) but still give the Divinations/Insights to allow more players to craft Legendary Armor.

 

No.

 

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5 hours ago, lokh.2695 said:

No. If you want the thing, you gotta do the thing to get the thing.

I'm still advocating DOING THE RAIDS for the rewards. Just about adding a different raid tier for new or casual players... which might actually incentivize development of NEW RAIDS if they can get people playing the content.

Seeing as Raid LFG is usually full of Raid sellers, I'm guessing there's plenty of people who don't "do the thing" and instead pay real money to other players for the rewards.

As I mentioned, the rewards have been there for 5 years. There's no real harm in making content more available to more people.

Edited by Minos.5168
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12 hours ago, Minos.5168 said:

Legendary crafting keeps the economy healthy as it's a huge mat sink (especially for 3 different armor sets). Further, the armor has been out since February 2017 (5 years prior to EoD launch) with plenty of opportunities for people to buy from raid sellers. It's a disadvantage for the game economy as a whole to gate the PvE-only armor behind content that isn't very accessible.

 

Couldn't agree more with everything you've said.

 

Not only that, but some players would like to do raiding but won't engage in the content because they'd be shoehorned into playing a specific class and build... which is absolutely the opposite of why I've been playing GW2. Having open world minded raid tier would probably mean more build diversity and would make use of the old content people don't even play anymore.

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2 hours ago, Minos.5168 said:

I'm still advocating DOING THE RAIDS for the rewards. Just about adding a different raid tier for new or casual players... which might actually incentivize development of NEW RAIDS if they can get people playing the content.

Some people, especially on this forum and reddit, would rather see their favourite gamemode die than to make it more accessible to the average player.

What you‘re advocating for is the way EoD strike missions are apparently set up, as Anet finally got the memo about needing different difficulties for raiding content. They mentioned in an interview that they could go back to create story difficulty raid versions of the old raids, but that would take away development resources for new content. So they‘re focusing on their renamed raids in terms of 10 man instanced content for now.

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12 hours ago, Minos.5168 said:

The existing 10-man raids really add a lot to Guild Wars lore in terms of story content that many people miss out on since they're intentionally challenging.


Maybe I’m missing something but what story content do you mean by “a lot”?  There’s hardly that much which can’t be obtained from a completed instance. 

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3 hours ago, Raknar.4735 said:

Some people, especially on this forum and reddit, would rather see their favourite gamemode die than to make it more accessible to the average player.

Sure, make the content more acessable, make it soloable or give it a straight up afk mode, where you get to press F to proceed to the next boss whenever you feel like it.
But don't touch the rewards. If you want easy content, sure go ahead, but don't ask for the same rewards other people have "worked" for.

Edited by lokh.2695
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4 hours ago, Raknar.4735 said:

Some people, especially on this forum and reddit, would rather see their favourite gamemode die than to make it more accessible to the average player.

Similarly, some people seemingly want every reward without ever lifting a finger for it.

It boggles the mind that so many would rather just give up without even trying and go cry on the forums endlessly.  Raids in GW2 are, in terms of difficulty, on the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to MMO raids in general. And yes, I do understand that muh cuhsual content needs to be casual but guess what, I have seen the most casual people actually flourish in raids, because they finally started really understanding what they were doing and why.

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48 minutes ago, lokh.2695 said:

Sure, make the content more acessable, make it soloable or give it a straight up afk mode, where you get to press F to proceed to the next boss whenever you feel like it.
But don't touch the rewards. If you want easy content, sure go ahead, but don't ask for the same rewards other people have "worked" for.

What is or isn‘t done with the rewards is neither yours nor mine decision to make. It is solely Anet‘s decision.

If they someday decide to revisit raids and change them in a way due to some proposed suggestions, it is because Anet deemed the suggestions worthwhile.

 

Atleast the path they‘re treading with EoD strike missions seems clear, one single currency, no matter how easy the strike is/ if you do CMs:

Any End of Dragons Strike Missions you complete will reward currency to be spent on Strike Mission-specific rewards, including any unique drops from the Strike Missions. You won’t be beholden to the fickle fate of random number generation to get what you want

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-end-of-dragons-strike-missions/

 

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16 minutes ago, Trondel.2508 said:

Similarly, some people seemingly want every reward without ever lifting a finger for it.

It boggles the mind that so many would rather just give up without even trying and go cry on the forums endlessly.  Raids in GW2 are, in terms of difficulty, on the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to MMO raids in general. And yes, I do understand that muh cuhsual content needs to be casual but guess what, I have seen the most casual people actually flourish in raids, because they finally started really understanding what they were doing and why.

Of course there will be people like that, just like there‘s people in full legendary gear that don‘t lift a finger in places like dragonstorm just for the reward.

 

Nonetheless Anet seems to have stopped releasing raids, and stated that raids have a low amount of people interacting with that type of content, which makes it hard to create more.

So maybe the people that want to have more accessible versions that could amount to a higher playercount are on to something?
Not that it matters, as Anet has changed gears to Strike Missions for now and raids are on the backburner.

And atleast with what Anet have stated, they seem to follow the path of more accessibility with EoD strikes.

Edited by Raknar.4735
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1 hour ago, Raknar.4735 said:

What is or isn‘t done with [whatever is suggested ever] is neither yours nor mine decision to make. It is solely Anet‘s decisiion.

Of course it is. Never said anything different. You can shut down every suggestion/request with that line, so why make these threads? Not that I'd mind if 80% of suggestion threads wouldn't happen. It's just not a very good argument.

The rest, yeah. I am looking forward to new strikes and I think giving them "difficuly settings" is a step in the right direction. Again, my post is very "pro-difficulty settings" if you read it. I just don't think it would be a good idea to give the same rewards no matter the difficulty. Tell me, if doing something easy in 5 min gave you the same rewards as something challenging that takes you 15min, which one would you do?

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31 minutes ago, lokh.2695 said:

Of course it is. Never said anything different. You can shut down every suggestion/request with that line, so why make these threads? Not that I'd mind if 80% of suggestion threads wouldn't happen. It's just not a very good argument.

I‘m not the one shutting down suggestions here. I‘ve even said that Anet should take suggestions if they deem them to be worthy.

However, this isn‘t a suggestion:

2 hours ago, lokh.2695 said:

Sure, make the content more acessable, make it soloable or give it a straight up afk mode, where you get to press F to proceed to the next boss whenever you feel like it.
But don't touch the rewards. If you want easy content, sure go ahead, but don't ask for the same rewards other people have "worked" for.

This is outright demanding Arenanet what to do. Which in this case is to not touch rewards. You can suggest them to not touch the rewards, but Anet will decide, not you nor me.
What you‘ve done is essentially shutting everyone else down that gives suggestions about the reward structure.

If we were to go by you, this very thread wouldn‘t exist, as seen by your very first response to shut down OP‘s suggestion.

31 minutes ago, lokh.2695 said:

Tell me, if doing something easy in 5 min gave you the same rewards as something challenging that takes you 15min, which one would you do?

Depends.

Is the activity that takes me 15 min actually fun and engaging to the point you aren‘t only playing the content for the reward?
Is the 5 min activity more fun, or just as fun, or less fun?
Or are both activities the same bore, where anyone would think „Getting this done as quickly as possible is the best way of action“?

Depending on if I actually enjoy the content, the reward wouldn‘t actually be the reason as to why I play that content. That‘s also why I don‘t spend every living second farming Drizzlewood, even though that is easy and rewarding. I simply don‘t enjoy to mindlessly farm.

Just ask WvW players if they play it for the reward or for fun.

Edited by Raknar.4735
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3 hours ago, Raknar.4735 said:

I‘m not the one shutting down suggestions here. I‘ve even said that Anet should take suggestions if they deem them to be worthy.

However, this isn‘t a suggestion:

This is outright demanding Arenanet what to do. Which in this case is to not touch rewards. You can suggest them to not touch the rewards, but Anet will decide, not you nor me.
What you‘ve done is essentially shutting everyone else down that gives suggestions about the reward structure.

If we were to go by you, this very thread wouldn‘t exist, as seen by your very first response to shut down OP‘s suggestion.

Depends.

Is the activity that takes me 15 min actually fun and engaging to the point you aren‘t only playing the content for the reward?
Is the 5 min activity more fun, or just as fun, or less fun?
Or are both activities the same bore, where anyone would think „Getting this done as quickly as possible is the best way of action“?

Depending on if I actually enjoy the content, the reward wouldn‘t actually be the reason as to why I play that content. That‘s also why I don‘t spend every living second farming Drizzlewood, even though that is easy and rewarding. I simply don‘t enjoy to mindlessly farm.

Just ask WvW players if they play it for the reward or for fun.

That's a pretty one dimensional view on things. Most of the time people don't just play for rewards, and fun is such a nebulous concept that reward can be part of it. 

 

It is undeniable that if you make easier/shorter content have the same rewards as longer / harder that parts of the population will drift to the shorter/easier part, even if parts of that population enjoy the longer content more absent any rewards. 

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25 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

That's a pretty one dimensional view on things. Most of the time people don't just play for rewards, and fun is such a nebulous concept that reward can be part of it. 

Exactly, only viewing it by rewards, like @lokh.2695 did is one dimensional. There's more to it, like e.g. fun I've mentioned.

Fun isn't nebulous at all, it's just subjective. What's fun for someone isn't for someone else. So the motives for people to play content differ. That's why I couldn't objectively answer @lokh.2695 question, without adding the variable how much "fun" the content is to me, as I'm not playing for rewards but for fun.

 

25 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

It is undeniable that if you make easier/shorter content have the same rewards as longer / harder that parts of the population will drift to the shorter/easier part, even if parts of that population enjoy the longer content more absent any rewards. 

That's a pretty one dimensional view on content. If you're only going by length/difficulty + rewards without any other metrics about the content, you can't measure anything.

If players are just there for the rewards, but not because the content is fun to them, it's obvious they'll choose the path of least resistance, like I've already stated.

A game with very rewarding content will not be played if the game isn't worth it in the first place to the player. Population can't drift if there's no population in the first place.

Edited by Raknar.4735
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I like this idea since it potentially allows for a large group of people to learn raids together with the help of a few people who know what they are doing. I'd at least like them to try something like this even if it has no rewards..

Any changes you propose in the forums are going to be an uphill battle though.

When I first saw this topic I thought it might get some new opinions or at least new faces discussing the issue. But now that it's been moved to Instanced Group Content there is a 50/50 chance it will be closed in about 5 pages once the usual suspects get in here.

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12 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

I like this idea since it potentially allows for a large group of people to learn raids together with the help of a few people who know what they are doing. I'd at least like them to try something like this even if it has no rewards..

Any changes you propose in the forums are going to be an uphill battle though.

When I first saw this topic I thought it might get some new opinions or at least new faces discussing the issue. But now that it's been moved to Instanced Group Content there is a 50/50 chance it will be closed in about 5 pages once the usual suspects get in here.

Yeah, thought so, too, that the suggestions are interesting. Using the DRM/Forging Steel tech of scaling would work pretty well imo.

(Something they'll hopefully also consider for EoD Strikes!)

But with the move to this subforum and the very echo-chambery nature of it, I don't really see the suggestions flourishing. Oh well, it was a nice attempt by OP. I'll just take my leave, don't want to get shouted down by the same people over and over 😅.

Edited by Raknar.4735
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20 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

 

Exactly, only viewing it by rewards, like @lokh.2695 did is one dimensional. There's more to it, like e.g. fun I've mentioned.

Fun isn't nebulous at all, it's just subjective. What's fun for someone isn't for someone else. So the motives for people to play content differ. That's why I couldn't objectively answer @lokh.2695 question, without adding the variable how much "fun" the content is to me, as I'm not playing for rewards but for fun.

This subjectivity makes it nebulous.  Fun means so many different things to so many different people it becomes a meaningless word in most conversations. 

Your last statement is a perfect example. When you say you play not for rewards but for fun, does that mean:

A)You would play things no matter the reward?

B) You dont look at the reward when deciding what to do?

C) Rewards dont change the amount of fun you have from events. (so a chack egg sack dropping for you would not increase your enjoyement of the game)

D) Some other option

 

 

20 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

That's a pretty one dimensional view on content. If you're only going by length/difficulty + rewards without any other metrics about the content, you can't measure anything.

You can predict behaviour though.  Or are you seriously going to tell me that that is not how the population would behave on large?

 

20 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

If players are just there for the rewards, but not because the content is fun to them, it's obvious they'll choose the path of least resistance, like I've already stated.

See how your trying go from one extreme to another, not even entertaining the notion that people can do something for both the reward and the fun. That is what i called out; this dichotamy you are presenting is ridiculous.

20 minutes ago, Raknar.4735 said:

A game with very rewarding content will not be played if the game isn't worth it in the first place to the player. Population can't drift if there's no population in the first place.

See my above statement.

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16 hours ago, Minos.5168 said:

I'm still advocating DOING THE RAIDS for the rewards. Just about adding a different raid tier for new or casual players... which might actually incentivize development of NEW RAIDS if they can get people playing the content.

Seeing as Raid LFG is usually full of Raid sellers, I'm guessing there's plenty of people who don't "do the thing" and instead pay real money to other players for the rewards.

As I mentioned, the rewards have been there for 5 years. There's no real harm in making content more available to more people.

You just want to put in 0 effort. Have others do the work and get the rewards. You are not doing the raid if 50 other people are carrying you through it.

 

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13 hours ago, Neva Eilhart.5347 said:

 

Couldn't agree more with everything you've said.

 

Not only that, but some players would like to do raiding but won't engage in the content because they'd be shoehorned into playing a specific class and build... which is absolutely the opposite of why I've been playing GW2. Having open world minded raid tier would probably mean more build diversity and would make use of the old content people don't even play anymore.

I really dislike selfish people  who don't enjoy a type of content so want to change and ruin it for those who do. If you want legendary armor so bad then ask anet to give you one for picking herbs and chopping trees like they did the amulet. Leave raids alone.

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8 hours ago, zombyturtle.5980 said:

I really dislike selfish people  who don't enjoy a type of content so want to change and ruin it for those who do. If you want legendary armor so bad then ask anet to give you one for picking herbs and chopping trees like they did the amulet. Leave raids alone.

Adding optional modes does not remove the mode current raiders enjoy, so it doesn't ruin raiding for current raiders.

I don't think making raids more accessible is selfish. Rewards can always be adjusted.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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Part of the design of raids is the player restriction.  There are things in raids that will either upscale to obscene levels (Qadim the Peerless lava attack, for example) and things that will be rendered nearly obsolete because one player could solo the mechanic (Matthias Bubble, for another example).  Nearly every boss has something like this.  As much as it would be to watch Gorseval or Dhuum massacre an entire zerg of auto-attackers, I'm going to have vote against this idea.  

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2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Adding optional modes does not remove the mode current raiders enjoy, so it doesn't ruin raiding for current raiders.

I don't think making raids more accessible is selfish. Rewards can always be adjusted.

 

True, unfortunately almost every single idea in regards to optional, and most often far easier, modes is tied to some way of still acquiring rewards from the current mode (and for any one paying attention, idea givers always make sure to always mention access to LI and/or LD in some form with their idea, even this recooked one in this thread).

 

The reality is, and that's what zombyturtle.5980 was referring to, that most ideas for alternate modes are only made to introduce some way to circumvent the current reward design of raids and provide the rewards from those via alternative methods. As such the ideas are seldom the main motivator but instead only the rewards.

 

Thus calling a spade a spade is absolutely correct. The main motivator for most of these great ideas is only 1 thing: give me legendary armor from raids without having to do raids, and that WOULD be damaging to the content.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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