Public-instance Raids and Legendary armor

[Zohane.7208]

I don't raid at all (did one Glenna kill way back when you had to do raid masteries to max out HoT masteries). I don't have legendary armor from any source, though I would like to.

I still don't want this to be implemented - I love that there's something out there that's beyond my reach so that I have something to strive for.

The suggestion to introduce "training" mode raids is interesting but if that were to be implemented it really should be without ANY of the "hardcore" rewards that give prestige.

 

And this from someone who doesn't have it and most likely never will.

[Neva Eilhart.5347]

17 hours ago, zombyturtle.5980 said:

I really dislike selfish people  who don't enjoy a type of content so want to change and ruin it for those who do. If you want legendary armor so bad then ask anet to give you one for picking herbs and chopping trees like they did the amulet. Leave raids alone.

 

No need to call me "selfish" for casually commenting on a forum about a feature which is underused by the community as a whole (ever wondered why Anet is promoting strikes instead of raids now and hasn't released any new content in this format in years ?).

 

And as for legendary armor specifically ? I've grinded my fair share of the WvW one so it's pretty much irrelevant since I've got it already. Don't worry, I won't steal your little toy away from you.

It doesn't mean though that using "old" raids content for players who aren't usually doing raids (by content I mean mostly encouters and cutscenes) wouldn't be a good idea to revitalize this specific part of the game. Not everything in the game has to be about rewards (though elitist mentality is very narrow minded on this).

 

But don't worry, I will selfishly leave your precious content alone and I won't ruin it. Though you'll have to explain to me how exactly I would be able to ruin it in the first place by reacting positively to the idea a fellow player had of opening old content to other parts of our community.

I'll wait, I just hope you know how to step off your high horse and come down with us mere mortals to grace us of your explanations.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Neva Eilhart.5347

[Cyndercat.7615]

I change my mind .I do want to see 50 man deimos with black pools and slam. I am sure OP will learn alot attempting that. 

[Wolfb.7025]

Although I disagree with the concept, I find the result would be hilarious.

 

Imagine raid bosses scaling up, half the 50-man squad being long bow rangers or other soldier's gear autoattack classes, and the raid boss with a timer on top of that.

Not being able to revive after defeated until the encounter resets.

Mechanics such as Deimos oils wiping everyone because it would be virtually impossible that someone out of 50 random players doesn't step on oil.

 

Yeah, its not gonna work, there was already so many complains about Marionette, can't imagine how a raid boss would work as an isntanced world boss.

[displayname.8794]

If the aim of this proposal is to get easy LIs/LDs I have to say no. Rewards being tied to the respective game modes are healthy and a staple of the MMO genre, more so considering legendary armor should be a prestige item.
If the aim is to get more people to experience the "real" raids, I'm not completely against it if implemented properly. Let's say double the players (20), half the rewards (1 gold per successful kill, could keep the same chance at ascended or exclusive drops like infusions), NO LI/LD awarded: a potential environment to learn mechanics without pressure and encourage the transition towards 10 man raids. Personally I think it would fail miserably because there are already ways for new players who REALLY want to experience challenging instanced content, whether originally created by ANet for the same purpose (strike missions) or by the players (training guilds and discord servers), but it would be an interesting experiment to see how many non-raiders do it under those premises.

[Obtena.7952]

Best thing to do at this point is forget raids exist cause if you aren't going to overcome the barriers you face to do them and get things they offer, it's even MORE unlikely Anet removes them for you. I also can't help but think that if Anet wanted to give players better access to Leg. Armor because of the benefits it has to the game, they would have done so by now. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Bakeneko.5826]

With current state of raids, open raid instances with nerfed versions could actually save raiding. Make public versions give LI/LD like they are doing now, and amp up Private Squad loot to make it on par with fractals (one full raid run giving same ammount of gold in items as week doing all fractals, more LI) this way you have "training" mode (sort of) for raids and influx of new players in raids, as well as incentive for players move onto squad based raiding for monetary gains.

 

tl;dr make open raid with current loot, put loot of steroids for private squad raids, save raids.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

With current state of raids, open raid instances with nerfed versions could actually save raiding. Make public versions give LI/LD like they are doing now, and amp up Private Squad loot to make it on par with fractals (one full raid run giving same ammount of gold in items as week doing all fractals, more LI) this way you have "training" mode (sort of) for raids and influx of new players in raids, as well as incentive for players move onto squad based raiding for monetary gains.

 

tl;dr make open raid with current loot, put loot of steroids for private squad raids, save raids.

You seem to understand what the actual incentive here is, so instead of pretending that "we should just boost gold to have an incentive to move to regular raiding", it would obviously be better/more logical for the actually desired reward (armor) to be left out of the potential training mode. Meanwhile you're trying to say that the way to go here is to "move the carrot to the training mode and then just add some gold to actual raids, which would then be on the level of fractals". That's pretty backwards.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Neva Eilhart.5347]

55 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

With current state of raids, open raid instances with nerfed versions could actually save raiding. Make public versions give LI/LD like they are doing now, and amp up Private Squad loot to make it on par with fractals (one full raid run giving same ammount of gold in items as week doing all fractals, more LI) this way you have "training" mode (sort of) for raids and influx of new players in raids, as well as incentive for players move onto squad based raiding for monetary gains.

 

tl;dr make open raid with current loot, put loot of steroids for private squad raids, save raids.

 

All other major Mmos have done this. Wow with LFR. FF14 with roulettes. It's not about not delivering content to elite players, and it's not about giving "casual" players every rewards without effort.

It's about hitting two birds with one stone by ensuring the content you've made isn't just relevant for 1% of your playerbase. It's about optimizing the use of assets you've worked on so that it can be a feature for everyone in your game. Elite players will have something to work on in the long run, while more casual players can enjoy the content at a slower pace and make it relevant years after its initial release.

 

[Bakeneko.5826]

29 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You seem to understand what the actual incentive here is, so instead of pretending that "we should just boost gold to have an incentive to move to regular raiding", it would obviously be better/more logical for the actually desired reward (armor) to be left out of the potential training mode. Meanwhile you're trying to say that the way to go here is to "move the carrot to the training mode and then just add some gold to actual raids, which would then be on the level of fractals". That's pretty backwards.

No, it wouldn't. Now we have armour locked behind raids and plenty of guilds running trainings daily (in EU at least) and raids are not worth attention of Anet to maintain.

Carrot is moved to "training" is not wrong, but also very wrong at the same time. Giving LI and LD at current rate in public raid mode would be carrot that attracts players to the mode, boost interest in raids themselves. To pull players further in, into organised squads, LI rewards could be tripled, as well as quite a bit more gold given, in squad (private) mode. LI and LD are primary reasons someone would start raiding, without it, it's just strike, that takes longer and has shittier rewards, while main loot, that interests casual still remains behind locked gates solving nothing, just eating dev time. And this practice isn't even new. Most MMOs did the same thing - easier mode rewards almost same items at lower rate, while difficult bumps up the loot to juicy drops that will sell for soul of players

[Sobx.1758]

49 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

No, it wouldn't. Now we have armour locked behind raids and plenty of guilds running trainings daily (in EU at least) and raids are not worth attention of Anet to maintain.

And putting that main reward in the training mode out of all things makes sense how exactly? And just adding some gold to regular raids would be an incentive how/to whom exactly?

Quote

Carrot is moved to "training" is not wrong, but also very wrong at the same time. Giving LI and LD at current rate in public raid mode would be carrot that attracts players to the mode, boost interest in raids themselves. To pull players further in, into organised squads, LI rewards could be tripled, as well as quite a bit more gold given, in squad (private) mode. LI and LD are primary reasons someone would start raiding, without it, it's just strike, that takes longer and has shittier rewards, while main loot, that interests casual still remains behind locked gates solving nothing, just eating dev time. And this practice isn't even new. Most MMOs did the same thing - easier mode rewards almost same items at lower rate, while difficult bumps up the loot to juicy drops that will sell for soul of players

Moving the rewards to training modes makes no sense and defeats the purpose of having training modes as a solution for proclaimed issues in the first place. If the point is "having easy rewards" then stop pretending it's anything else than that.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Bakeneko.5826]

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And putting that main reward in the training mode out of all things makes sense how exactly? And just adding some gold to regular raids would be an incentive how/to whom exactly?

Moving the rewards to training modes makes no sense and defeats the purpose of having training modes as a solution for proclaimed issues in the first place. If the point is "having easy rewards" then stop pretending it's anything else than that.

Premise is saving content for being forgotten like dungeons in next year or two. Sometime community (esp raid one) has to grow up and realise, that for something good to happen, something needs to be sacrificed

[Cyninja.2954]

By now the "easiest" way to approach this issue without raining on someones parade would be:

 

A. if there is a reason/desire from the developers to add an additional way to acquire legendary armor via pure PvE means, add this in a different type of content than raids or challenging instanced content. Something more akin to T3 legendary weapons where a lot of trading or materials/gold is required or can be traded via the TP

 

B. leave raids as is and with one method of acquiring current PvE legendary armor, introduce a better maintainable type of challenging instanced content which does not have legendary armor as exclusive reward

 

In neither approach does adding an easy mode for acquiring LI/LD or any other raid rewards make any sense.

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Premise is saving content for being forgotten like dungeons in next year or two. Sometime community (esp raid one) has to grow up and realise, that for something good to happen, something needs to be sacrificed

 

Undermining the modes reward system is neither beneficial nor necessary to achieve the most sought after goal: legendary armor via PvE outside of raids. Let's stop pretending it is.

 

There are more sensible ways to give players who refuse to raid access to legendary armor, if that is even a goal of the developers. Both in terms of monetization, like the T3 weapons will be over the TP and the resulting money->gem->gold conversion, as well as maintaining the integrity of the modes rewards.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Sobx.1758]

39 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Premise is saving content for being forgotten like dungeons in next year or two. Sometime community (esp raid one) has to grow up and realise, that for something good to happen, something needs to be sacrificed

Changing content to easy one to the point it's no longer what it's designed to be (because you're making world bosses out of them), with -apparently- the sole purpose being "get in, get endgame rewards, get out" isn't saving anything here. The point of training modes is to potentially help getting into the actual content, not to skip it.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Bakeneko.5826]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Changing content to easy one to the point it's no longer what it's designed to be (because you're making world bosses out of them), with -apparently- the sole purpose being "get in, get endgame rewards, get out" isn't saving anything here. The point of training modes is to potentially help getting into the actual content, not to skip it.

Raid design was outdated the day it was released to begin with. Also, I do not get raider community look at other people getting armour like personal attack on them. I made leggy armour, I wouldn't care if they gave it for free, as long as raids see rise in popularity

[Sobx.1758]

On 12/13/2021 at 12:48 PM, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Raid design was outdated the day it was released to begin with. Also, I do not get raider community look at other people getting armour like personal attack on them. I made leggy armour, I wouldn't care if they gave it for free, as long as raids see rise in popularity

Nah, it wasn't. And isn't it funny how you've skipped everything I said? What's the point of quoting me then?

Also where did you get the idea about anything here being taken as "personal attack"?

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Raid design was outdated the day it was released to begin with. Also, I do not get raider community look at other people getting armour like personal attack on them. I made leggy armour, I wouldn't care if they gave it for free, as long as raids see rise in popularity

you dont make popularity rise by taking away rewards try that with any other content please.

and boosting gold is not the answer either since the prices and gold to gem will go up accordingly mate.

[Gibson.4036]

Any number of things have been added to the game over the last 9 years. People could say "If they wanted it they would have implemented it by now" all the way up to the day it was implemented. And often did.

One of the most useless, though often repeated, arguments on these forums.

 

[mythical.6315]

11 hours ago, Neva Eilhart.5347 said:

All other major Mmos have done this. Wow with LFR. FF14 with roulettes. It's not about not delivering content to elite players, and it's not about giving "casual" players every rewards without effort.

There’s a very good reason why this works in other games like FF14 and wouldn’t for GW2. 

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Any number of things have been added to the game over the last 9 years. People could say "If they wanted it they would have implemented it by now" all the way up to the day it was implemented. And often did.

One of the most useless, though often repeated, arguments on these forums.

 

Well, there is some logic behind that reasoning because Anet made some decision based on some criteria to add value to the game in a specific way. In this instance, this value is Leg armor and there are a few ways to get it, none of those ways are OW-only. I can't help but think that's not some accident, that's intentional. Acknowledging this intent isn't as useless as you say because there isn't actually an argument to change it unless the conditions for the original intent change. 

I'm going to speculate that the intent of Leg Armor implementation was to get more people doing less popular content and that's why we don't have a OW-only path to Leg Armor. I don't think Anet's desire for people to do less popular content is gone .. so it seems to me the argument "if they wanted it they would have implemented it by now" is actually pretty sound.  Unless Anet doesn't regard their original intent valid ... then why would it change?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gibson.4036]

I think you've got a good argument there for intent, and if you took out "if they wanted it they would have implemented it by now" it would not change a bit.

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Any number of things have been added to the game over the last 9 years. People could say "If they wanted it they would have implemented it by now" all the way up to the day it was implemented. And often did.

One of the most useless, though often repeated, arguments on these forums.

 

 

True, just about as useless as making the gazillionth thread about the essentially same thing over and over hoping that the last gazillion threads before were somehow missed by the developers.

This current idea/topic/suggestion and many like it are as old as the content its self and even predate the actual implementation of the legendary armor its self. Doesn't stop players from making the same suggestion over and over and over again does it?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I think you've got a good argument there for intent, and if you took out "if they wanted it they would have implemented it by now" it would not change a bit.

That's my point ... I don't need to take it out because that part you think should be removed is entirely there because it points to the fact that things that are the status quo are intended based on some reasoned decision. I mean, has Anet changed or modified how Leg Armor is obtained in the ... 6 (7?) years it's been out? I don't think so. That's an indication to me that how it works ... is fine because it's intended. 

I can see Anet rethinks this to be inline with their new focus on strikes. I can also see rethinks Leg Armor to be more inline to the OP request ... because Anet has little reason to keep valued assets out of the hands of most of it's players. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I think you've got a good argument there for intent, and if you took out "if they wanted it they would have implemented it by now" it would not change a bit.

But that's exactly what it boils down to, so you're just "arguing" against the wording that in the end means the same thing you now agree with.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Sobx.1758