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If Alliances become a thing, get rid of Hidden Tags.


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Hidden tags and hidden allies period is one of the worst elements of playing in WvW. And this Alliance beta showed just how bad this will become with more guild focused gameplay that we see with Alliances. Often times Guilds will run hidden tag so that non guild members can locate them and play with them. This could make the population seem faulty because some hidden squad is somewhere on the map while everybody else is centralized around certain key structures since there isn't any organization.  

 

Alliances were suppose to be the ultimate solution to the community building and organizing.  But I am not seeing that. See more private hidden tags. Get rid of this. Its no longer needed, since guilds can already pick who they want to play with in the Alliance feature. 

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I don't agree with completely removing hidden tags. The squad UI is better than the party UI. It allows you to check supply faster. Sometimes even for roaming with 5 people I see myself turning the party into a hidden tag squad.

 

While I agree that having large scale zergs with hidden tag is not desirable, I don't like to be forced to show a public tag when roaming with a few friends.

 

IMO 10 players is a good  limite for a hidden tag.

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also (this has been discussed like 1000000 times since hidden tags were introduced), there is a reason why especially guilds use hidden tags. 
Guilds don´t want random people around, for a variety of reasons. The biggest one being: 
randoms will often ruin your stealth, even if it is unintentional. Being it either by running into your gyro/smoke-blast, or following you visible while you are stealthed.
Also you can never know how good they play, what build they play, and in most cases they will die inside  your fight and rally 5 enemies, which can lose you an otherwise even fight. 
Yes, i agree that guilds should run with visible tags if possible, since it also allows other guilds and the public zerk to coordinate better, but "randys" often disrupt guild-gameplay.
Don´t get me wrong: i totally agree that public squads never should run invisible. But from my expierience (at least on our server) most public commanders don´t go invis tags anyway, but closed voice-only squads at max.

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Personally I'd rather see better tag features to encourage open tagging such as hover over tag descriptions (seeing if a tag is a guild raid at a glance) and more custom icons and colors to differentiate guilds. 

But whatever lets just delete hidden tags instead, it's surely the best option. 

Edited by Dawdler.8521
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2 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Alliances were suppose to be the ultimate solution to the community building and organizing.

Sooooo do you tag up and help your community building and organizing?

 

Also the guilds will just go back to running without a tag... and use target or squad tags instead.... does nothing to fix your "hidden population".

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22 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Hidden tags and hidden allies period is one of the worst elements of playing in WvW. And this Alliance beta showed just how bad this will become with more guild focused gameplay that we see with Alliances. Often times Guilds will run hidden tag so that non guild members can locate them and play with them. This could make the population seem faulty because some hidden squad is somewhere on the map while everybody else is centralized around certain key structures since there isn't any organization.  

 

Alliances were suppose to be the ultimate solution to the community building and organizing.  But I am not seeing that. See more private hidden tags. Get rid of this. Its no longer needed, since guilds can already pick who they want to play with in the Alliance feature. 

What about no?

 

Why a closed comped squad should care about trash rally-bots trying to join or following them? Why they should be forced to pick randoms in their Guild/Closed/Hidden squad? If you want a visible tag, TAG UP yourself and make it non-hidden if you wish, and don't try to push your bs on others.

Edited by SmokingLord.6108
typo
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Just as you have the right to play without being seen on the map by everyone, the same goes for any group. 

The problem is that random followers often do more harm than good without even knowing it. They will get marked or just get seen by enemy when the commander wants to ambush, they will follow unstealthed into stealth push and thus revealing squad position, they will die and rally enemy.

During GvG they want to fight G v G and not G v G+20 randoms. I'm not against randoms tagging along, people I play with won't try to chase them away but they won't encourage them either.

Sometimes when there is a queue, commanders don't want to alert to their presence on the border and attract random players since they are still waiting for their squad to get onto the border. Might seem unfair, but it goes both ways, comm is first there to accommodate his/her squad.

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On 12/6/2021 at 2:13 PM, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Hidden tags and hidden allies period is one of the worst elements of playing in WvW. And this Alliance beta showed just how bad this will become with more guild focused gameplay that we see with Alliances. Often times Guilds will run hidden tag so that non guild members can locate them and play with them. This could make the population seem faulty because some hidden squad is somewhere on the map while everybody else is centralized around certain key structures since there isn't any organization...

Sorry, but I really don't understand the objection here. "This could make the population seem faulty because some hidden squad is somewhere on the map..." The squad isn't hidden, only the commander tag is. The group can be seen and tracked by scouts or by using well placed Target Painter Traps.

"...while everybody else is centralized around certain key structures since there isn't any organization..." Not everyone wants to be "centralized around certain key structures". I can enjoy some zerg vs zerg battles like those in EBG but that's not all I enjoy in WvW.

Actually, my favorite WvW game mode is roaming with a group of guildie friends while socializing in our Discord vc. One good reason for a private tag in that situation is so that we don't have to deal with randos we don't know, some of whom may be toxic. Another good reason for a private tag in that situation is that we encourage our members to take turns tagging up and leading the group. We've discovered some excellent commanders in our guild by doing that. Especially in the beginning, a new commander may not feel at all comfortable with running an open tag and dealing with whoever joins. It's much easier to learn with a group of friends.

Are there good reasons for eliminating private tags? If so, I'm willing to listen.

Edited by Chichimec.9364
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29 minutes ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

Are there good reasons for eliminating private tags? If so, I'm willing to listen.

Private tag =/= Hidden tag. I have run closed groups with a visible tag before. I can't think of any good arguments for the removal of private tags, but I can think of reasons to advocate for the re-visitation of hidden tags.

Summarized, the argument to be made is that WvW is not a sandbox or free-play mode. It's meant to be a competitive environment where everyone that is the same color is on the same team. The mode currently doesn't really invite or encourage teams to work together, but the base is still there. In the same way you'd probably laugh at 5 people off playing their own little soccer match in the middle of a world cup game, a hidden tag -should- invite a similar level of 'Why are you kittening off by yourself instead of working with everyone?'

I do appreciate the flexibility it offers, maybe you don't want to confuse new players so hide your tag of 7 people so they know to go to the open tag of 30. Or you want to be able to drop markers on terrain for friends or be able to mark several different people in a zerg for your pick party friends to target. I think it's an important tool to have. But I also think it gets defaulted to by many groups and makes the mode feel more empty than it actually is.

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2 hours ago, God.2708 said:

Private tag =/= Hidden tag. I have run closed groups with a visible tag before. I can't think of any good arguments for the removal of private tags, but I can think of reasons to advocate for the re-visitation of hidden tags.

Summarized, the argument to be made is that WvW is not a sandbox or free-play mode. It's meant to be a competitive environment where everyone that is the same color is on the same team. The mode currently doesn't really invite or encourage teams to work together, but the base is still there. In the same way you'd probably laugh at 5 people off playing their own little soccer match in the middle of a world cup game, a hidden tag -should- invite a similar level of 'Why are you kittening off by yourself instead of working with everyone?'

I do appreciate the flexibility it offers, maybe you don't want to confuse new players so hide your tag of 7 people so they know to go to the open tag of 30. Or you want to be able to drop markers on terrain for friends or be able to mark several different people in a zerg for your pick party friends to target. I think it's an important tool to have. But I also think it gets defaulted to by many groups and makes the mode feel more empty than it actually is.

Thanks for highlighting the distinction between a private tag and a hidden tag. There is a real difference between the two. I'm not sure I would agree though with changing the mechanics to force people to play together as one large team which is how I read what you are saying. One objection I have to that is a very practical one. In my own experience, I've only known a tiny handful of commanders who think on that kind of strategic level and who have the ability to coordinate different activities against a variety of targets simultaneously. Personally, I've seen one commander who can do that with a large zerg across one or more maps and two who can do it with smaller groups on one map. Most commanders I've run with just hit a single target at a time so working together as a large team usually  means just following a tag from zerg fight to zerg fight. I enjoy some zerg fighting but not when that goes on for hours. I also very much enjoy solo roaming and running with a small group of friends playing our own game of soccer as the big zergs battle it out with each other.

This is just my experience and my own opinion though. If I am misunderstanding your vision of how you see WvW working, please expand some more. I learned a long time ago that my own opinion is not the be all and end all of ultimate truth.  😺

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1 hour ago, Chichimec.9364 said:

Thanks for highlighting the distinction between a private tag and a hidden tag. There is a real difference between the two. I'm not sure I would agree though with changing the mechanics to force people to play together as one large team which is how I read what you are saying. One objection I have to that is a very practical one. In my own experience, I've only known a tiny handful of commanders who think on that kind of strategic level and who have the ability to coordinate different activities against a variety of targets simultaneously. Personally, I've seen one commander who can do that with a large zerg across one or more maps and two who can do it with smaller groups on one map. Most commanders I've run with just hit a single target at a time so working together as a large team usually  means just following a tag from zerg fight to zerg fight. I enjoy some zerg fighting but not when that goes on for hours. I also very much enjoy solo roaming and running with a small group of friends playing our own game of soccer as the big zergs battle it out with each other.

This is just my experience and my own opinion though. If I am misunderstanding your vision of how you see WvW working, please expand some more. I learned a long time ago that my own opinion is not the be all and end all of ultimate truth.  😺

It's a chicken and egg problem. There isn't a real need or desire for commanders to do that, so no one who can bothers to and so there's no one to really learn from. I'd draw a distinction between being in one giant zerg and everyone being on one team.

As an example way back when before HoT. You could have 5 tags on a map, one would be 'Blue' as the main tag, a purple one as a 'havoc' tag, and then 2 or 3 red ones that were 'scouts'.

With everyone visible, and the server having an understanding of what the colors meant, you could tell at a glance that the enemy spotted in the map chat call out was at south garrison and moving east towards watergate, there was a small group cutting off supply to hills and hitting SET, and the main group was moving to engage the blob seen near garrison from spawn, and that maybe they shouldn't just wipe them because then they'd respawn and kill the havoc tag. There are lots of people doing 'their own thing' but they are doing it together to accomplish a unified goal: control the map and beat the enemy.

Now you see an empty map with OJs randomly proccing sometimes because the commander doesn't want randoms revealing their stealth push and mess up the 'fight'.

I'm not going to say that invisible tags CAUSED this emptiness and disconnect. That's on arenanet leaving the mode to languish. But I do think modifying how tags work is an aspect anet can use to tackle the problem.

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7 hours ago, God.2708 said:

It's a chicken and egg problem. There isn't a real need or desire for commanders to do that, so no one who can bothers to and so there's no one to really learn from. I'd draw a distinction between being in one giant zerg and everyone being on one team.

As an example way back when before HoT. You could have 5 tags on a map, one would be 'Blue' as the main tag, a purple one as a 'havoc' tag, and then 2 or 3 red ones that were 'scouts'.

With everyone visible, and the server having an understanding of what the colors meant, you could tell at a glance that the enemy spotted in the map chat call out was at south garrison and moving east towards watergate, there was a small group cutting off supply to hills and hitting SET, and the main group was moving to engage the blob seen near garrison from spawn, and that maybe they shouldn't just wipe them because then they'd respawn and kill the havoc tag. There are lots of people doing 'their own thing' but they are doing it together to accomplish a unified goal: control the map and beat the enemy.

Now you see an empty map with OJs randomly proccing sometimes because the commander doesn't want randoms revealing their stealth push and mess up the 'fight'.

I'm not going to say that invisible tags CAUSED this emptiness and disconnect. That's on arenanet leaving the mode to languish. But I do think modifying how tags work is an aspect anet can use to tackle the problem.

And also before HoT you had closed guild raids with no tag but players putting a target market on the leaders head.

It's nothing new, it's just more convenient.

If anet removed hidden tags it wouldn't solve the problem since hidden tags would revert to target markers and a lot of old school players still leave those targets on the commander out of habit (and for leaps).

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I think it is up to the community. I - as a player that solo/casually plays only - can understand that it is annoying to have  hidden tags ... where it seems no one is online. (Where you don't know where to go for action. + You still could run across the zerg and join them even if they wanted to avoid random players running with them.)

But this is up to the players - how they use this function.

Preferrably I'd love to have 1 public tag (main zerg - for attacking) and 1 hidden (where all small roamers and people that defend/scout and build siege organize - with a bit using the shared participation if possible for 1 guy building siege or so).  That would imo make sense - from a strategical/tactical point of view.

Edited by Luthan.5236
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9 hours ago, God.2708 said:

It's a chicken and egg problem. There isn't a real need or desire for commanders to do that, so no one who can bothers to and so there's no one to really learn from. I'd draw a distinction between being in one giant zerg and everyone being on one team.

As an example way back when before HoT. You could have 5 tags on a map, one would be 'Blue' as the main tag, a purple one as a 'havoc' tag, and then 2 or 3 red ones that were 'scouts'.

With everyone visible, and the server having an understanding of what the colors meant, you could tell at a glance that the enemy spotted in the map chat call out was at south garrison and moving east towards watergate, there was a small group cutting off supply to hills and hitting SET, and the main group was moving to engage the blob seen near garrison from spawn, and that maybe they shouldn't just wipe them because then they'd respawn and kill the havoc tag. There are lots of people doing 'their own thing' but they are doing it together to accomplish a unified goal: control the map and beat the enemy.

Now you see an empty map with OJs randomly proccing sometimes because the commander doesn't want randoms revealing their stealth push and mess up the 'fight'.

I'm not going to say that invisible tags CAUSED this emptiness and disconnect. That's on arenanet leaving the mode to languish. But I do think modifying how tags work is an aspect anet can use to tackle the problem.

Ah, thanks. Now I have a better sense of what you are saying and that does sound like a good way of organizing things and a fun way to play. 

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This is completely anecdotal, but in Elder Scrolls Online, they have a mode almost identical to WvW called Cyrodiil.

Some things to consider about the differences;  

Cyrodiil is enormous. It takes ~30seconds to cross EBG from one side to the other. It takes 15 minutes in Cyrodiil. It's like if every WvW map were combined in to one, and then multiplied.

Due to the size, it's easy to go long distances without ever seeing another player. And because Commander tags don't exist, you won't know where anyone is without using chat - although you can see when objectives are being attacked like in WvW.

But somehow, there's still lots of action. Large scale fights happen everywhere, groups form up on the fly or pre-planned, lots of people roam alone, and lots of people play only with their guilds.

Players willing to explore on their own accord will find what they're looking for, and those that won't aren't as much of a blessing on the community as they think.

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2 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

This is completely anecdotal, but in Elder Scrolls Online, they have a mode almost identical to WvW called Cyrodiil.

Some things to consider about the differences;  

Cyrodiil is enormous. It takes ~30seconds to cross EBG from one side to the other. It takes 15 minutes in Cyrodiil. It's like if every WvW map were combined in to one, and then multiplied.

Due to the size, it's easy to go long distances without ever seeing another player. And because Commander tags don't exist, you won't know where anyone is without using chat - although you can see when objectives are being attacked like in WvW.

But somehow, there's still lots of action. Large scale fights happen everywhere, groups form up on the fly or pre-planned, lots of people roam alone, and lots of people play only with their guilds.

Players willing to explore on their own accord will find what they're looking for, and those that won't aren't as much of a blessing on the community as they think.

 

Yes but if I remember correctly, their objectives are linked so that you can teleport to any of them up to the front lines, as long as it's not contested, as in the smaller objectives around them not capped to enemies. Not really hard to figure out where the frontline of fighting might be as it's just a giant sized ebg, it's the skirmishes in open areas that are hard to find sometimes without a group or calls because of how big the map is. Meanwhile while wvw is smaller, it's split into 4 maps, 3 of which you can't see where most of the action is happening like a fog of war. While also being able to easily and quickly attack anything on the map all the way into the backlines, action can happen faster and typically needs a fast response, a tag is good for helping gather players quickly for those responses.

 

In any case, if a player is coming into wvw and always having to rely on seeing a tag to find stuff to do, they either need to join a guild or actually learn to use the map which gives you all the information you would need to navigate through wvw and find stuff to do. Commander tags, white and orange swords, missing sentries, objectives just flipped, outnumbered, watchtower marks, RI timers, scout calls, these are all the tools you use to determine where the action is or potentially will be.

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On 12/7/2021 at 12:02 AM, Doll Mistress.9267 said:

Hidden tags allow roamer squads to do their thing without confusing people looking for the main commanders.

 

Agree here, my havoc runs a hidden tag, pretty much for the reason we want our group to be able to see supplies and where we are at, but at the same time don't want to confuse people and pull people from the main tag and draw numbers from there. As others previously stated maybe if we change up or could standardize tags it would be something, but the tags are simply icons and colors and mean different things to different people. It makes it very open and flexible, but also easily creates confusionsion. 

 

But no we asked for hidden tags for the purpose they serve today, wouldn't want to remove that feature. If anything it might be even more needed since if a guild does not join an Alliance they won't know where they land and the 'shards' rules might be different every 8 weeks. 

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I'm one of the people who prefers to play WvW by joining an open tag and then running with the group and I'm actually glad we've got hidden tags now. As various people have pointed out making the tag visible does not change the fact that the group doesn't want random extra people joining and I don't want to waste my time or theirs trying to join or follow a group that doesn't want me.

It's much easier now to find an open tag to join than it was back when I'd get into the map, see 4+ commander tags and have to check each one to find out if they were open for joining or a private group.

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On 12/8/2021 at 11:57 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

...
As others previously stated maybe if we change up or could standardize tags it would be something, but the tags are simply icons and colors and mean different things to different people. It makes it very open and flexible, but also easily creates confusionsion. ...

 I can recall when the blue Dorito was considered the main tag and usually PPT.  If I recall correctly, yellow or red tag was often the fightmander/havoc, and purple would be guild groups and/or scouts. I know it varied per server a little.

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