Should Herald recive "small" buff? [Facet of Strenght improvement idea]

[khawki.4205]

Before we start, I'm talking PvE only, mostly raids/strikes/fractals, I don't play other game modes.

So, I've been playing Herald whenever I can, mostly as dps (variation of snowcrows build, but with more personal dps), it's really enjoyable and can pull its weight on raids (not huge dps, but helps squad in some subtle ways, kind of being glue for pugs).

Recently however I started trying out tank+heal herald, hoping I can somehow replace druid. As for healing - it's actually enough to keep your squad alive in most fights, easily no downed people on VG greens. Problem is, there is not enough might generation in his kit. With Facet of Strength and Shared Empowerment you can get up to 15 stacks with slightly above 80% Boon Duration. Not to mention very slow ramp up.

I would really love some variety in raid compositions, thus I think about small change to PvE herald. Simply, change Facet of Strength to give 2 stacks of might instead of 1. Faster ramp up and being able to keep 25 stack on squad would be enough to make him viable option!

And I know some people will mention spotter and spirits. Due to spirits druid always will be better, but I don't see reason why we should consider it as only option and not look towards other builds. As for spotter - you can simply take 100 precision food instead of 100 power one. You lose around 110 power (due to spotter over-capping) but with Herald you get 150 ferocity in return. Not to mention spotter can be given by soulbeast or other ranger build.

So, what do you guys think about this small buff? Is it something that Herald should get or am I just being greedy?

 

Edit: through discussion another problem about dps Herald showed up which I adressed in reply that I quote here for more clarity

Spoiler

23 minutes ago, khawki.4205 said:

So, we get another problem of conflict between low dps and beeing able to deal quite disturbing dps by almost afking.

Thus I see simple solution of changing Forceful Persistence trait which is responsible of afk Herald builds.

As for now it gives 13% dmg increase in every legend other than Glint when you have any upkeep skill active while also giving 4% per upkeep skill on Glint (so may go up to 20%).

The problem I see with it that for Glint, you get 4% with skill that costs 1 upkeep and 4% with Elite, it doesn't matter. Same with other legends, you may have no energy drain (or 1 upkeep drain) and get 13% from that.

But what if we change it to give dmg boost per draining upkeep (meaning you have to be actively loosing energy to gain from it, no staying at 50 energy all the time) and make no difference between Glint and other legends (since only Glint can get to all 5 draining upkeeps so higher dmg there).

I am aware that Jalis-Shiro build would still be a thing here, but with Glint being better option people will gravitate towards it for bigger numbers.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by khawki.4205
Expanding topic

[ArthurDent.9538]

Herald should get about 15% more dps to put it inline with other low tier dps specs like scrapper, spellbreaker, and reaper. Rework the heal on facet use trait into a dps trait and buff various sword and facet consume power coefficients to achieve this. Double swords should certainly receive damage buffs as the weapon set despite being much more single target focused than vindicator greatsword has lower single target damage than gs. Then fix the absurd synergy renegade ice razor ire + dance of death stacking 40 battle scars roughly every 10 seconds so power ren doesn't get out of control with the changes.

[khawki.4205]

Quote

Herald should get about 15% more dps to put it inline with other low tier dps specs like scrapper, spellbreaker, and reaper.

With right build (Forceful Persistence + Notoriety in subs with less than 3 power users including you) you can outmatch spellbreakers or scrappers in dmg while also giving protection, fury and most importantly, swapping between 20% boon duration for whole squad or giving them lifesteal.
So I don't think dps is that much of a deal.

In my view only problem is being able to only be dps (with small boon support).

Herald has whole trait line designed to be a healer, IMO he should be viable option as main heal.

[Charybdis.3695]

7 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

Is it something that Herald should get or am I just being greedy?

It is possible to provide 25 stacks of might with 100% boon duration and Shared Empowerment, with around 50% crit chance and Sigil of Strength (herald healer works great with this). Having quickness firebrands can help maintain but adding another stack would definitely make it ramp up quicker 😁

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

With right build (Forceful Persistence + Notoriety in subs with less than 3 power users including you) you can outmatch spellbreakers or scrappers in dmg while also giving protection, fury and most importantly, swapping between 20% boon duration for whole squad or giving them lifesteal.
So I don't think dps is that much of a deal.

In my view only problem is being able to only be dps (with small boon support).

Herald has whole trait line designed to be a healer, IMO he should be viable option as main heal.

You aren't outdpsing full dps scrapper with that build, especially after the Devastation nerfs several months ago that were aimed at Condi Ren.  Full DPS Power Herald hasn't been able to reach 33k+ in ages.  And to put it in further comparison Power Boon Herald (27kish) and Quickness Scrapper (28kish)  do about the same amount of damage, yet Scrapper brings quickness for 5 which is far more valuable than anything Herald brings.  Also ofc worth noting that Scrapper isn't even a great class to compare it to since it's fairly bottom of the barrel as is. 

Regardless, a buff to BOTH Shared Empowerment and turning Shining Aspects into a DPS trait would be more than welcome (especially since they do compete directly with each other thus forcing you to specialize and make a trade off, which is always welcome). 

Edited December 8, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Jthug.9506]

13 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

Before we start, I'm talking PvE only, mostly raids/strikes/fractals, I don't play other game modes.

So, I've been playing Herald whenever I can, mostly as dps (variation of snowcrows build, but with more personal dps), it's really enjoyable and can pull its weight on raids (not huge dps, but helps squad in some subtle ways, kind of being glue for pugs).

Recently however I started trying out tank+heal herald, hoping I can somehow replace druid. As for healing - it's actually enough to keep your squad alive in most fights, easily no downed people on VG greens. Problem is, there is not enough might generation in his kit. With Facet of Strength and Shared Empowerment you can get up to 15 stacks with slightly above 80% Boon Duration. Not to mention very slow ramp up.

I would really love some variety in raid compositions, thus I think about small change to PvE herald. Simply, change Facet of Strength to give 2 stacks of might instead of 1. Faster ramp up and being able to keep 25 stack on squad would be enough to make him viable option!

And I know some people will mention spotter and spirits. Due to spirits druid always will be better, but I don't see reason why we should consider it as only option and not look towards other builds. As for spotter - you can simply take 100 precision food instead of 100 power one. You lose around 110 power (due to spotter over-capping) but with Herald you get 150 ferocity in return. Not to mention spotter can be given by soulbeast or other ranger build.

So, what do you guys think about this small buff? Is it something that Herald should get or am I just being greedy?

I have been happily running heal herald in my raid statics for about 2 years now, typically unless it's a high pressure fight I will solo heal and the 9th dps will be a soulbeast with frost and sun spirits, also our alac is usually a staff mirage which also brings 25 stacks of might for 10 ppl. Works pretty good. The main upshot is that quick brands can bring full firebrand dps gear and consumables and not have to have any boon duration at all. It was a real fight to get my statics to try it but now that I have convinced them we haven't gone back. On the couple of fights where we actually need more healing like soulless horror CM, the soul beast just swaps to druid (and in that particular case also pushes the tormented dead).

 

Power herald has been repeatedly nerfed maybe the flip over on the might facet should be stronger? I genuinely wish they would at least make CoR on hammer 2 work properly or maybe change it to be targeted because usually when I use that in wvw it misses or does nothing due to terrain or people moving a tiny bit. Even if my WvW squad lets me play vindicator in EoD I am going to have to run hammer for sure and it still kinda sucks.

[khawki.4205]

One important thing I didn't emphasize enough.

I'm talking about this one issue of slow might ramp up and not being able to keep up 20-25 stacks of might (except for way explained by Echo.6310)

I know that Herald should get buffed in general, but I don't want to overdo it (we are not Mesmers, remember that!), that's why I'm focusing on small steps.

I've seen huge lists of what should be improved in certain class but created with no thought of how combining all of it would make this class literally god. And I do not wish to go this way.

[Zenith.7301]

Herald should be the proper support healer spec with Ventari.

 

Unfortunately, Renegade does everything better, Ventari as a core legend and traitline suck really bad, especially the pitiful amount of alacrity it provides, and the only thing Herald does better than support rene is Fury uptime, as renegade provides better might, alacrity, protection uptimes on top of the really strong group heals and condi damage mitigation in the Kalla Heal.

 

They really need to give back Ventari traitline the regen on tablet pulse and scrap the worthless orbs gimmick that do nothing.

 

Energy costs for the condi clear skills also need to come down, and Ventari needs a stunbreak, which would be perfect on the condi cleanse skill.

 

They can also extend heal aspects to Jalis by making the hammers also pulse healing with healing power scaling, putting a heal or condi cleanse on Rite of the Great Dwatf, and putting Resolution on the road skill.

 

Probably won't compete still with HB since HB brings every boon but alacrity reliably, has access to reflects at the same time as stability and resolution and a metric ton of condi cleanse, on top of having a monopoly on aegis.

 

Herald shield wep is so terrible as well, vastly inferior to the guardian shield. Shield 5 should be a movable shield that pulses healing and blocks projectiles/applies CC. Shield 4 should give resolution and cleanse conditions or apply vigor.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Virdo.1540]

It definetely should grant at least 2 might per Pulse of Facet of Strength. Right now its a lot more worse than Shared Empowerment alone

 

+ A dmg buff to Forceful persistence, because with that the supportive part gets about halved.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Virdo.1540

[Dadnir.5038]

Facet of might used to grant more might and was nerfed to it's current performance because it promote a gameplay which is to passive.

Personnally, I think Shining aspect could also afford to grant a few stacks of might to your allies on using a consume. It would be in direct competition with Shared empowerment but as an "active" way to build might it would also deserve to build more might, faster.

 

 

[khawki.4205]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Facet of might used to grant more might and was nerfed to it's current performance because it promote a gameplay which is to passive.

Personnally, I think Shining aspect could also afford to grant a few stacks of might to your allies on using a consume.

If we want less passive gameplay for Herald then Facets would need complete rework and that would create completely new elite spec. Facets are by nature quite passive (yet comparing to signets, quite active gameplay I would say).

Besides, is it more passive to control your energy, consuming when you want to gain specific effect or delay legend swapping...or is it more passive to double tap skills to receive boons?

Edited December 10, 2021 by khawki.4205
Quoting a little bit more

[Anonynja.3172]

Herald is a good spec that deserves a buff to damage. Condi builds work so well with revenant, but I switch for dragonhunter for power damage. Herald's DPS gap is just too big. Increasing might generation is one route that wouldn't directly increase DPS but make it a little more stable boon support option. I'd prefer direct damage increase to sword/staff or via Herald's traitline - no need to buff DPS on heal heralds, but it should be more viable to play pure DPS with it.

 

Personally I'd also like a little QoL tuning with Ventari as well - maybe wider radius or reduced cast/aftercast on Ventari 6 to make tracking the tablet over allies smoother.

[Telgum.6071]

I don't think is even relevant balancing around specializations. If you are a Revenant player, you can roll Renegade and that's it, no buffs needed. I also disagree about having Herald buffed this way, while I like the Facet system, having boons for just standing there doesn't seem quite right and I don't think Anet should buff that.

And for those complaining about Herald's damage, saying that Herald doesn't deal enough damage on PvE is the same than saying it about Druid or Weaver.

[khawki.4205]

21 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

If you are a Revenant player, you can roll Renegade and that's it, no buffs needed.

Isn't that an issue if you have limited options like that? I do believe that every class with every elite spec should be playable in PvE (as I said, I don't know about other gamemodes). I'm not trying to force overpowering Herald, just give it small buffs to stay relevant to current state of game.

[SeTect.5918]

55 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

And for those complaining about Herald's damage, saying that Herald doesn't deal enough damage on PvE is the same than saying it about Druid or Weaver.

Weaver? It does over 10k more dps than herald.

Druid offers like nothing for damage builds, its a pure healer/support spec.

Herald offers multiple damage increases in the traits and is a tank/power/boon spec.
The thing is that its not really good in any of these. Renegade is the better boon support, the better power dps, the better condi dmg and the better tank.
Herald has no real use atm.

Also all herald utility facets offer boons and their consumes deal power damage.
Herald players have a right to ask for damage buffs. Comparing Herald to Druid or Weaver makes no sense, they are totally different.

Herald does not offer any top tier boons and still its hanging behind quickness scrapper which does far more.
Herald does 1k less dps than quickness scrapper. And quickness scrapper even uses some diviners pieces while herald is full berserker. So u already use the better dps equip than quickness scrapper but still do 1k less dps while also offering worse boons.
 

1 hour ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I don't think is even relevant balancing around specializations. If you are a Revenant player, you can roll Renegade and that's it, no buffs needed.

If you mean that not buffs for herald dmg are needed: This also makes no sense at all imo. Just because Renegade does the job better, it doesnt mean that the other spec can stay bad.

Herald want boons? Not needed, just go renegade.
Herald want power dps? Not needed, just go renegade.
Herald want tanking? Not needed, just go renegade.
Herald want healing? Not needed, just go renegade.

Scourge, renegade and firebrand are the good examples for putting everything in 1 spec and making the other spec of the class looking like its a joke compared to it. I mean Reaper, Dragonhunter and Herald are jokes if you compare them to scourge, firebrand and renegade.

I am not even sure if you was serious or not tbh. But I hope u was not.

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Scourge, renegade and firebrand are the good examples for putting everything in 1 spec and making the other spec of the class looking like its a joke compared to it. I mean Reaper, Dragonhunter and Herald are jokes if you compare them to scourge, firebrand and renegade.

Bad analogy.

 

See, dragonhunter is the power DPS build for guardian. Condi reaper is competitive with condi scourge for DPS - just doesn't have the barrier - and power reaper isn't great DPS but is still at least viable. Scourge and firebrand have more things they can do, but if you just want pure DPS, DH and reaper can hold up.

 

Herald doesn't even have that. Power renegade benches 7K more than power herald on large hitbox, and probably still significantly more on small hitboxes. Condi renegade does 10k more, and that's still on small hitboxes.

[SeTect.5918]

1 minute ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

See, dragonhunter is the power DPS build for guardian. Condi reaper is competitive with condi scourge for DPS - just doesn't have the barrier - and power reaper isn't great DPS but is still at least viable. Scourge and firebrand have more things they can do, but if you just want pure DPS, DH and reaper can hold up.

Dragonhunter is pure power dps, no support, nothing else. Firebrand offers Boon support, healer, condi dps and has also more sustain. For all that just a dps loss of 1k.
Reaper does like 3k less dps than scourge. Scourge also has more sustain than reaper and has the ability to share barrier with the group.

Reaper cant hold up with scourge dps tbh.

But anyway I get what you wanna tell me. Scourge-Reaper, Dragonhunter-Firebrand were just examples to explain why its not okay as it is.

Yes Herald-Renegade is a far worse thing than for example Dragonhunter-Firebrand, Because Renegade offers everything that herald can do, and even does it far better. Firebrand offers not everything that dragonhunter can do, but still does far more.
I mean Firebrand offers everything except power dps and dragonhunter offers only power dps. Renegade offers everything that herald can do and even does it 10x better.
 

7 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Power renegade benches 7K more than power herald on large hitbox, and probably still significantly more on small hitboxes. Condi renegade does 10k more, and that's still on small hitboxes.

Agree.

[draxynnic.3719]

26 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Dragonhunter is pure power dps, no support, nothing else. Firebrand offers Boon support, healer, condi dps and has also more sustain. For all that just a dps loss of 1k.
Reaper does like 3k less dps than scourge. Scourge also has more sustain than reaper and has the ability to share barrier with the group.

Dragonhunter has a bit of support, just not up to firebrand standards (but condi firebrand isn't the same as a healbrand or cqb either). Latest benchmarks I've seen put condi reaper at a little better than condi scourge, albeit not by a significant amount.

 

But yeah, you get my point. DH and reaper at least both offer comparative damage, and pull ahead when power damage is what you need (although power reaper is still a little low in group situations, the problem with having so much self-sufficiency in its kit). Herald doesn't even have that.

[Kidel.2057]

Moving while using shield 5, more heal on shield 4 and 5, more dps in general via traits. Done. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[khawki.4205]

54 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Moving while using shield 5, more heal on shield 4 and 5, more dps in general via traits. Done. 

Moving would be nice, that is for sure, as well as healing there, or change it to pulse heal on 5 targets. However I do not think shield 4 needs more healing, as it's quite strong for it's energy cost, however I would love to see blast finisher on it.
Also more healing won't fix might uptime problem, so there's that.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 12/8/2021 at 1:58 PM, ArthurDent.9538 said:

 

Herald should get about 15% more dps to put it inline with other low tier dps specs like scrapper, spellbreaker, and reaper. Rework the heal on facet use trait into a dps trait and buff various sword and facet consume power coefficients to achieve this. Double swords should certainly receive damage buffs as the weapon set despite being much more single target focused than vindicator greatsword has lower single target damage than gs. Then fix the absurd synergy renegade ice razor ire + dance of death stacking 40 battle scars roughly every 10 seconds so power ren doesn't get out of control with the changes.

Rework  the heal facet? lol...  Herald is not a DPS main class in 1st place.

 

Also that will ruin my build....  wich uses power and healing stats in both main sets and it tends to be quite competent on team heals even on WvW(pity that we lost the 10 ally effect actually).

Regen facet its the best sauce of  over 1k regen/sec for each ally  in game while can provide some minimal might as well with the right trait, in pve since Facets work on 10 alies that regen output is 1.k x 10 alies.. its a total of 10k regen output that its perma...and share empowerement trait is also 10 alies.

All that we rev/herald players need is a rework on Forcefull Persistance trait, easy peasy no need to remove some decent support/team care that Herald cant loose to stay in theme.

Just make  Forcefull Persistance boost damage when using main hand sword or shield(since its herald main weapon).

Also boon duration F2 on Glint is actually kinda useless nowadays, that also could boost damage output like, reduce facets performance to increase damage output.

 

 

1 hour ago, khawki.4205 said:

Moving would be nice, that is for sure, as well as healing there, or change it to pulse heal on 5 targets. However I do not think shield 4 needs more healing, as it's quite strong for it's energy cost, however I would love to see blast finisher on it.
Also more healing won't fix might uptime problem, so there's that.

Yeah moving even if was slower on shield 5 would be great, players in short range of the Herald could be affected as well even if was by % of the total healing the Herald does with the shield 5.

Shield 4 issue is only the travel time to target on fast mobility alies sometimes can be hard to hit the aoe on their zone :),  i can reach arround 4k-5k heals every 15sec  with it, the heal is actually good but if theres a buff towards it i would just request a one condi cleanse, wich would be 2 if using Hardening persistence.

 

IF crystal hibernation will never be changed towards mobility nor team support should be changed to a damage skill at the end of its pulse :D

Decent damage aoe arround the herald :P

Edited December 11, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Puck.3697]

19 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I don't think is even relevant balancing around specializations. If you are a Revenant player, you can roll Renegade and that's it, no buffs needed. I also disagree about having Herald buffed this way, while I like the Facet system, having boons for just standing there doesn't seem quite right and I don't think Anet should buff that.

And for those complaining about Herald's damage, saying that Herald doesn't deal enough damage on PvE is the same than saying it about Druid or Weaver.

Druids a meta healer... Weaver does 38k on a sword build 

Herald does like 30k DPS and considered a joke even compared to weaver lol nothing alike realistically. 

I can't see herald getting buffed realistically as vindicator is about to become the power DPS option 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Telgum.6071]

18 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Herald offers multiple damage increases in the traits and is a tank/power/boon spec.

What does this even mean? Berserker is a dps specialization and has tank and survival traits, which doesn't make it a tank specialization. You, the people who talk about "Herald being weak" or "Renegade being strong" tend to forget that you are not playing Herald or Renegade, you are playing Revenant which is built by different specializations, including Herald and Renegade.

18 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Herald does not offer any top tier boons and still its hanging behind quickness scrapper which does far more.
Herald does 1k less dps than quickness scrapper. And quickness scrapper even uses some diviners pieces while herald is full berserker. So u already use the better dps equip than quickness scrapper but still do 1k less dps while also offering worse boons.

Revenant does better damage and support (healing, alacrity) than any Scrapper build. But of course if you look for specific, non min/max builds that are not designed to work like you want to, you'll get this feeling of Revenant being weak.

18 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Herald want boons? Not needed, just go renegade.
Herald want power dps? Not needed, just go renegade.
Herald want tanking? Not needed, just go renegade.
Herald want healing? Not needed, just go renegade.

Salvation want power dps? Not needed, just go Invocation.

18 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Scourge, renegade and firebrand are the good examples for putting everything in 1 spec and making the other spec of the class looking like its a joke compared to it. I mean Reaper, Dragonhunter and Herald are jokes if you compare them to scourge, firebrand and renegade.

Are we even playing the same game? Before the torment changes Scourge was a joke on instanced content and Reaper was the way to go if you wanted to play DPS, and Firebrand doesn't even exist outside condition and support. The fun thing is bringing the Firebrand specialization into the discussion, a specialization that can literally do everything and pretending that's the way to go. Result? There is no fractal or raid without firebrands. There are no raids without a Druid. 

18 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I am not even sure if you was serious or not tbh. But I hope u was not.

I understand that in this subforum, where people love saying that Revenant is the weakest class in the game, is strange to find people saying that Revenant does not need buffs or changes outside maybe Ventari and Mallyx. Some of you will never understand that Revenant is on the perfect spot in every gamemode, specially PvE, because is a class that allows you to go whatever content you can possible imagine without major problems and without swapping classes.

[Telgum.6071]

19 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

Isn't that an issue if you have limited options like that? I do believe that every class with every elite spec should be playable in PvE (as I said, I don't know about other gamemodes). I'm not trying to force overpowering Herald, just give it small buffs to stay relevant to current state of game.

Your only limitation is having 7 specializations on Revenant.

If we are to change something from Herald, I doubt encouraging the already passive gameplay is the way to go. Instead we could make something with the shield.

[SeTect.5918]

23 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

What does this even mean? Berserker is a dps specialization and has tank and survival traits, which doesn't make it a tank specialization. You, the people who talk about "Herald being weak" or "Renegade being strong" tend to forget that you are not playing Herald or Renegade, you are playing Revenant which is built by different specializations, including Herald and Renegade.

Beserker has tank and survival traits? U actually have a -300 toughness trait as berserker. Then u have a invuln for 2 sec (1 sec in cometitive) and a 20% heal if u die while in berserker mode and would die in it.

Herald has Damage reductions, self healing, grp healing, other damage reductions, damage reducting boons....
"You, the people who talk about 'Herald being weak'..." what? I never said that. I never said in any of my comments that I think that Herald is weak.
Tending to forget that I am not playing Herald or Renegade and that I am playing Revenant? Yes, I am playing Revenant, but i am also playing Herald and Renegade. What do u even mean? Revenant is built by different specs yea sure, but the e specs are bringing a new gameplay and are also basically increasing core revenant if u equip the e spec. Some are increasing core rev more and some are increasing it less. This is what happened to renegade and Herald.

 

33 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Revenant does better damage and support (healing, alacrity) than any Scrapper build. But of course if you look for specific, non min/max builds that are not designed to work like you want to, you'll get this feeling of Revenant being weak.

Alacrity is Renegade, we are talking about Herald. If I tell u that Herald does worse than Scrapper and u say that Renegade offers more dmg, healing and alac than scrapper, that makes no sense.
And again: I never no one else here said that Revenant is weak. Some people here maybe said that Herald is weak (I didnt) but none said that Revenant is weak.
 

39 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Salvation want power dps? Not needed, just go Invocation.

Again this makes no sense at all.
Herald is a power/tank/support spec so ofc people dont want to only deal 27k power dps. Even condi does better on it.
Salvation is a pure healing spec with small tanking traits. Asking for dps on salvation makes no sense.
 

42 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Are we even playing the same game? Before the torment changes Scourge was a joke on instanced content and Reaper was the way to go if you wanted to play DPS, and Firebrand doesn't even exist outside condition and support. The fun thing is bringing the Firebrand specialization into the discussion, a specialization that can literally do everything and pretending that's the way to go. Result? There is no fractal or raid without firebrands. There are no raids without a Druid.

Scourge was a joke before torment changes and still dealt higher dps than Herald, could tank more than Herald and had slightly less support abilites than Herald.
But however why are you now talking about what was in the past? I am saying how it is in the current state and not how it was before some patches.
Yes there are no raids or fractals without a firebrand and yes it can literally do everything and thats why I said that dragonshunter looks like a joke compared to firebrand. And I used that example to Renegade-Herald, but however as @draxynnic.3719already said, it was not really the best example bc Dragonhunter is still a better power dps than firebrand but Herald is no where better than Renegade. 
 

51 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I understand that in this subforum, where people love saying that Revenant is the weakest class in the game, is strange to find people saying that Revenant does not need buffs or changes outside maybe Ventari and Mallyx. Some of you will never understand that Revenant is on the perfect spot in every gamemode, specially PvE, because is a class that allows you to go whatever content you can possible imagine without major problems and without swapping classes.

Again u r saying Revenant. I am talking about Herald. And none here said that Revenant is the weakest class in the game. You was asking me if we are playing the same game but u dont even seem to read the forum. NONE here said that revenant/Renegade/Herald is the weakist class/spec in the game. What are u talking about?

Why are you talking about Revenant the whole time? I was talking about Herald.
Herald is not = Revenant.
Herald is a part of Revenant.

However if I change ur argument a bit and u wouldve said that Herald is in the perfect spot in every gamemode, then:
Fractals.

Herald is not welcomed in fractals. When I played Herald in fractals I got asked "Herald? What is your role here?" at the start of the fractals.


At the moment there is no sense of playing Herald because Renegade does the same things but does it 10x better. The only reason you would play Herald is because you like the gameplay and thats why I play Herald. And thats fine but making it able to compete with other e specs of the class would still be nice or not?