Should Herald recive "small" buff? [Facet of Strenght improvement idea]

[khawki.4205]

5 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Your only limitation is having 7 specializations on Revenant.

If you say it as "you can play whatever you want" then no, you're limited by what you can bring to group, if you bring substantially less than other builds, you get kicked out.

5 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

If we are to change something from Herald, I doubt encouraging the already passive gameplay is the way to go. Instead we could make something with the shield.

Fair point, if Herald were to get might generation on shield instead of facet, that would still be step in right direction. My idea was facet since it's easiest to change and doesn't change playstyle at all, so it would be same as always herald, but slightly buffed.

[Charybdis.3695]

Knowing which facets to leave on and for how long can allow the legend to play passively if camping Glint, but it also leaves room for energy spent on weapon skill rotations before needing to swap legends.

This is why I would highly recommend Herald as a healer with Ventari in fractals. With the method I mentioned earlier about being able to provide 25 might, it is also possible to provide permanent alacrity by using Facet of Nature (with the trait that that increases seconds to all boons) on Glint after pulsing the alacrity 4 or 5 times nonstop on the Ventari heal (when traited with Salvation and having 100% boon duration).

Using shield with this method allows for constant healing bursts along with staff during the rotation on Glint, or to be more aggressive with say mace/axe, or kite heal & cc with hammer. For example, with the shield and staff it is possible for the group to stack and sustain both dredge mining suits attacks in Molten Furnace T4 fractal, which I have yet to see any other healer achieve while having no regards to active instabilities.

The beautiful thing about using a Revenant as a healer, whether Herald or Renegade, is that alacrity is not an essential boon for the Revenant to perform the role as a healer. My pocket quickbrand even says she will eventually get to the point where everything is on cooldowns if the DPS of the group is low, which I think is a more common issue for pug groups. This realization brought me to the conclusion that the heal firebrand + alacrity renegade combination often results in the frustration of players unable to cope with unreliable DPS.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Echo.6310
Molten Furnace*

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Herald does 30k by autoattacking, it doesn't need buff for more braindead DPS.

Plus most of people understimate herald in pug, as in theory they already "loop" boons ; but even with medium DPS herald really help to maintain all stacks of mights, quickness, etc with facet of nature (active and passive), facet of strength. It's not quite impressive, but far from useless ...

To me, support Herald is about boon uptime and healing. I don't see it like "meta" but high confort, helping allies around to build with lesss concentration/boon duration (FB/Ren, chrono ...), round out the angles.

I think:
they should give back at least the +33% BD on facet of nature;
make change on shield to increase boon uptime of the group (for example crystal hibernation "freeze duration of boons on you and allies for 1-3sec (meaning +3sec) + actual effect ");
Shared empowerment > healing empowerment, grant +180 HP to 10 players or may be a trait to combine both effects of Facet of nature.

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[khawki.4205]

4 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Shared empowerment > healing empowerment, grant +180 HP to 10 players or may be a trait to combine both effects of Facet of nature.

 

That gives Herald more healing, which is already huge, lost in overhealing and takes away might generation which is already his problem... not to mention you have same trait in next column... 

Edited December 12, 2021 by khawki.4205

[ArthurDent.9538]

8 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Herald does 30k by autoattacking, it doesn't need buff for more braindead DPS.

 

Made up and inflated numbers sure are a fun basis for strawman arguments. Ironically do you know how many classes have stronger power scaling per second on at least one auto attack chain than revenant sword using pve balance numbers? 7, all except for ranger and revenant itself and that's not including stuff like reaper shroud or photon forge autos, rev sword auto power damage is really quite average.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 hour ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

 

Made up and inflated numbers sure are a fun basis for strawman arguments. Ironically do you know how many classes have stronger power scaling per second on at least one auto attack chain than revenant sword using pve balance numbers? 7, all except for ranger and revenant itself and that's not including stuff like reaper shroud or photon forge autos, rev sword auto power damage is really quite average.

 

So they have more than 30K. What's your point ?
really quite average is bad ?

Edited December 12, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[ArthurDent.9538]

18 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

So they have more than 30K. What's your point ?
really quite average is bad ?

The auto attack damage is average compared to other auto attacks its not any more braindead than other dps rotations. However the damage of the overall kit is far from average being behind the dps of all other especs aside from druid ( which unlike herald adds almost nothing for personal dps) including all the actually strong non druid support specs like chrono, firebrand, scourge, renegade, mirage, banner war, etc. Herald brings direct damage focused skills with 3 of the glint consumes, and 3 personal direct damage modifiers to build a decent dps build out of  yet is just perpetually left lagging behind every other damage build  simply by careless number tuning. Herald also has an extensive history of being an aggressive damage dealer in competitive modes yet has never been tuned to be even decent in the role for pve despite having a good foundation for it.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

46 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

The auto attack damage is average compared to other auto attacks its not any more braindead than other dps rotations. However the damage of the overall kit is far from average being behind the dps of all other especs aside from druid ( which unlike herald adds almost nothing for personal dps) including all the actually strong non druid support specs like chrono, firebrand, scourge, renegade, mirage, banner war, etc. Herald brings direct damage focused skills with 3 of the glint consumes, and 3 personal direct damage modifiers to build a decent dps build out of  yet is just perpetually left lagging behind every other damage build  simply by careless number tuning. Herald also has an extensive history of being an aggressive damage dealer in competitive modes yet has never been tuned to be even decent in the role for pve despite having a good foundation for it.

 

Okai. 😶 Of course it was an inflated number.
You'll get no cookie to notice it, if that was your will. I thought the bossy way of expression, of the sentence on contrary to the relative point of view later on the message, was clear enough, but it seems it was rather provocative.
That was just an allegory on the, YES, quite easy dps build and rotation.

 

But you don't explain anything either. That's funny to speak about strawman  when you  mix everything with only context of dps, but no criteria, no situation. So I'll do it for both of us, and others.
DPS herald is more arround 34-35k benchmark with notoriety, dance of death, FP, lifesteal with allies; which is quite nice already compared to holo, sb , even dh. Then rotation is a lot easier than most of "high benchmark"; there is low-to-no energy management compared to dps ren for example, there is no skill order, just a window with Burst of Strength; there isn't much casting interuption.
In situation it is an easy class to handle, with high sustain,  possibly AP and so less losses from benchmark; as I said most of people understimate herald in pug because, first of all condi meta, then they make false assemption because of SUPPORT herald benchmark and not a lof heralds arround to make them lie.

 

Then SUPPORT herald. It seems it wasn't clear enough, see how I offended you. I don't think we need more dps in this build, i think we need more support. See my original post.
Edit : we could improve dps for DPS herald (Improve FP or core value, change hardening thing for dps on shield etc), but not on the support traits, if you have the question.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

7 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

That gives Herald more healing, which is already huge, lost in overhealing and takes away might generation which is already his problem... not to mention you have same trait in next column... 

That gives Herald and allies more healing power, allowing less healing power* in gear (for druid, "healscourge", Q/HFB etc)

About might stack. Yeah you're right. My point was to make herald a support support which has been its first role on hot when we didn't have diviner/harrier etc, strong might bots outside PSwar etc ; to allow less healing, less concentration, increasing boon duration on already applied boons ; not to make a might bot.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[khawki.4205]

So, we get another problem of conflict between low dps and beeing able to deal quite disturbing dps by almost afking.

Thus I see simple solution of changing Forceful Persistence trait which is responsible of afk Herald builds.

As for now it gives 13% dmg increase in every legend other than Glint when you have any upkeep skill active while also giving 4% per upkeep skill on Glint (so may go up to 20%).

The problem I see with it that for Glint, you get 4% with skill that costs 1 upkeep and 4% with Elite, it doesn't matter. Same with other legends, you may have no energy drain (or 1 upkeep drain) and get 13% from that.

But what if we change it to give dmg boost per draining upkeep (meaning you have to be actively loosing energy to gain from it, no staying at 50 energy all the time) and make no difference between Glint and other legends (since only Glint can get to all 5 draining upkeeps so higher dmg there).

I am aware that Jalis-Shiro build would still be a thing here, but with Glint being better option people will gravitate towards it for bigger numbers.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 12/11/2021 at 6:38 PM, Telgum.6071 said:

Your only limitation is having 7 specializations on Revenant.

If we are to change something from Herald, I doubt encouraging the already passive gameplay is the way to go. Instead we could make something with the shield.

 

Add a heal boost to the targets affected from the herald boon duration F2 that is measured on pips being used since this is not a boon and cant be stacked, its also limited to 5 players on wvw and pvp.

Shield 5 could also  leash a aoe damage effect on its last pulse based on % of the damage absorved, still easilly countered by every unblockable skill...

 

17 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

That gives Herald and allies more healing power, allowing less healing power* in gear (for druid, "healscourge", Q/HFB etc)

About might stack. Yeah you're right. My point was to make herald a support support which has been its first role on hot when we didn't have diviner/harrier etc, strong might bots outside PSwar etc ; to allow less healing, less concentration, increasing boon duration on already applied boons ; not to make a might bot.

Alot of players missed the passive 1.4k(1.533k1.6k  on clases that have traits to receive more in-healing) regen ticks for each of the 10 alies :P...  now we are nerfed to 5 alies at only 1k to 1.1k regen tick :(

Edited December 13, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Kronos.2560]

I just think they need to slightly change things in herald.

 

GM traits:

Elevated compassion keeps same effect but change from healing (which currently is mostly useless as by the time the heal ticks they are usually either dead or full health) to either barrier (which stays for a bit with barrier so it doesn't miss the small window of needing some survivability like a heal does) or some other boon like 1-2 sec of resolution every 3 seconds (plus this goes well with dwarf trait line)

 

Forceful persistence:

Change to be modifier for condi and power not just power.

 

Draconic echo:

Keep current of passives still tick a couple times + either buffed active effects or provide aoe quickness for 2 seconds on active glint skill use. (Couldn't maintain perma quickness but a few small bursts when pop skills)

 

Other traits could use some love too but not as big of a deal personally. (My favorite is rising momentum because herald has perma swiftness so a speed buff is just funny to me)

I also think the facet of strength needs buffing as it gives such lackluster might it's just sad.

 

I think between the above you have potential for condi to shine decently as well as actual support as the only notable buff herald has currently is Regen. (Argue all you want on it offer prot but renegade does prot but even better, not to mention the other things it brings). This would give either some group barrier or resolution. Potentially some quickness (if trait that way). Or higher dps (at least on condi) as most tend to say condi herald needs around a 15% or so buff to be viable and the forceful persistence would do around that.

 

I am sure more needs to be done but I would imagine this could be a small step back into it being more wanted.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 12/12/2021 at 6:28 PM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

Okai. 😶 Of course it was an inflated number.
You'll get no cookie to notice it, if that was your will. I thought the bossy way of expression, of the sentence on contrary to the relative point of view later on the message, was clear enough, but it seems it was rather provocative.
That was just an allegory on the, YES, quite easy dps build and rotation.

 

But you don't explain anything either. That's funny to speak about strawman  when you  mix everything with only context of dps, but no criteria, no situation. So I'll do it for both of us, and others.
DPS herald is more arround 34-35k benchmark with notoriety, dance of death, FP, lifesteal with allies; which is quite nice already compared to holo, sb , even dh. Then rotation is a lot easier than most of "high benchmark"; there is low-to-no energy management compared to dps ren for example, there is no skill order, just a window with Burst of Strength; there isn't much casting interuption.
In situation it is an easy class to handle, with high sustain,  possibly AP and so less losses from benchmark; as I said most of people understimate herald in pug because, first of all condi meta, then they make false assemption because of SUPPORT herald benchmark and not a lof heralds arround to make them lie.

 

Then SUPPORT herald. It seems it wasn't clear enough, see how I offended you. I don't think we need more dps in this build, i think we need more support. See my original post.
Edit : we could improve dps for DPS herald (Improve FP or core value, change hardening thing for dps on shield etc), but not on the support traits, if you have the question.

No one is getting 34-35k on Herald with full DPS traits anymore my dude after the nerfs it got a few months back. Please post a video of your claim or stop spewing misinformation bull kitten 

Edited December 22, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[jpsssss.7530]

In PvE sure. I'm fine with that. But I swear to god if I see that in WvW or PvP ima give someone a swirly...

[Aeolus.3615]

14 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

No one is getting 34-35k on Herald with full DPS traits anymore my dude after the nerfs it got a few months back. Please post a video of your claim or stop spewing misinformation bull kitten 

I think people are using Kala dps sword sword build nowadays for power builds, at least for what i noticed and what was explained to me, wich does more dps than actually herald builds(by a good chunk of dps), the sword autos alone people say its very strong.

im kinda OK'ish with it, but Herald should be more team support than it is anyway, like a possible trade off sistem to build arround, Herald is very underrrated at support but could be slighly better for example, note that outside pve we also lost the 10 ally facets but Renegade can still put alacrity towards 10 in wvw.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

I see little reason to buff Herald because when played well, has a well balanced toolkit. Seems like a well-veiled attempt to get a DPS bump for little reason. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[khawki.4205]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I see little reason to buff Herald because when played well, has a well balanced toolkit. Seems like a well-veiled attempt to get a DPS bump for little reason. 

While Herald has pretty balanced toolkit it doesn't offer anything that can't be achieved much easier with meta setups (as I started topic, main healers can just get to 20-25 stacks of might with ease and they provide either spirits, quickness or some other unique things) 

Topic didn't start as "buff dps" yet people see problem here since it's easier to notice (just look at benches) 

I want buffed might generation, I admit that. But for dps I want careful rework, changing traits so it is possible to achieve higher dps, but to also eliminate 29k afk build.

[khawki.4205]

Important overlook!

I started topic thinking that Herald may have issues providing 25 stacks of might. Turns out it is possible and not even that hard. There was one way presented earlier, with giving might on crits, but there is one better as Mace has fire field on 2 and blast finisher on 3. As you also usually have staff you can also blast it with staff 4.

This way, with Minstrell gear/monk runes it is possible to grant 22-25 stacks of might to 5 people and 12-15 to the rest of squad.

This needs more testing for sure, which I'll do after xmas.

Edited December 23, 2021 by khawki.4205
Got info on how many people combo works

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

While Herald has pretty balanced toolkit it doesn't offer anything that can't be achieved much easier with meta setups (as I started topic, main healers can just get to 20-25 stacks of might with ease and they provide either spirits, quickness or some other unique things) 

Topic didn't start as "buff dps" yet people see problem here since it's easier to notice (just look at benches) 

I want buffed might generation, I admit that. But for dps I want careful rework, changing traits so it is possible to achieve higher dps, but to also eliminate 29k afk build.

It's not that hard to get whatever might you are looking for but ... the idea that something doesn't compete with meta isn't a reason to change a class. Lots of things aren't meta and with more especs, never will be. 

[khawki.4205]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not that hard to get whatever might you are looking for but ... the idea that something doesn't compete with meta isn't a reason to change a class. Lots of things aren't meta and with more especs, never will be. 

I'm not saying that Heal Herald has to be meta, all I want is a viable option to play in endgame content. 

My reasoning for change isn't "herald isn't played in every group like druid is" but rather "herald is rarely used in endgame pve overall" 

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

I'm not saying that Heal Herald has to be meta, all I want is a viable option to play in endgame content. 

My reasoning for change isn't "herald isn't played in every group like druid is" but rather "herald is rarely used in endgame pve overall" 

Except what you are saying isn't really correct because you are using what meta setups do to justify how you want Herald to change to be 'viable'. As it is, Herald is a viable option to play in endgame content. 

Put another way, what do you mean by 'viable'?  if you mean "people want it for teams and won't kick you out", then you ARE talking about meta builds because teams that want specific builds who would kick you out are looking for meta builds to fill those spots. Let's be clear here ... viable is not defined by the builds that team creators want in their teams, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

I mean, this is your logic "I'm getting kicked from teams that want meta builds, so buff me to be viable, but not so that I'm meta.". How did you conclude a team that kicks you means your builds aren't viable? Your original post says you want variety in raid comps ... but for some reason, you aren't willing to play the available options that give you the variety in raid comps that you want to enable you to play Revenant in raids. Ironically, that option just happens to be a meta build, which is what will keep you from being kicked from the teams you are talking about. That's a paradox you need to resolve.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[otto.5684]

On 12/10/2021 at 5:49 PM, Telgum.6071 said:

I don't think is even relevant balancing around specializations. If you are a Revenant player, you can roll Renegade and that's it, no buffs needed. I also disagree about having Herald buffed this way, while I like the Facet system, having boons for just standing there doesn't seem quite right and I don't think Anet should buff that.

And for those complaining about Herald's damage, saying that Herald doesn't deal enough damage on PvE is the same than saying it about Druid or Weaver.

Well no. Druid has a dedicated role that it excels at, healing/buffing allies through unique damage buff and might stacking. What support does herald offer? Basic  boons, without might stacking. Does it offer power damage? No. How about condi? Also no. 
 

I do not agree with the OP either, however, for pve, between core, herald and renegade, renegade has the best support, healing CC, power damage and condi damage. Even range. Anything outside of renegade in pve, does not exist.

[Aeolus.3615]

On 12/25/2021 at 7:21 AM, otto.5684 said:

Well no. Druid has a dedicated role that it excels at, healing/buffing allies through unique damage buff and might stacking. What support does herald offer? Basic  boons, without might stacking. Does it offer power damage? No. How about condi? Also no. 
 

I do not agree with the OP either, however, for pve, between core, herald and renegade, renegade has the best support, healing CC, power damage and condi damage. Even range. Anything outside of renegade in pve, does not exist.

Well ventari heal skill "natural Harmony" can heal arround 10k hp  and offer a 1 punny (even  orbs can be made do give might 😛 still mechanically useless imo)stack of might and alacrity at the same time, anything that aplies boons gives might to alies on herald (trait effect only triggers on combat).

Note: I assume druid can mantain perma 20-25 stacks of might on alies reason is prefered?

Renegade m8 be better  for more dedicated builds as in min-max power/condition builds,  but will loose damage to go with support, it can become a better min-max by loosing other stats.

Maybe  using the shield trait while using the shield  would boost damage on main weapon 😛 by 25%??      Buff shield 4 and 5 by makig its condi cleanse native and trait becomes boost for damage and defense while using shield.     

Herald support on pve is arround 10 players perma 1.1k regen ticks as passive wich also provides perma fury and might with extra migh from  "Shared empowerment" but pve is played with min max performance and if possible gimmicks, herald looses greatly compared with other specs in this field that offer better boon stacks.

note: With 3 upkeeps affecteing plus  "shared empowerment" its arround 7-8 might stacks but that also depends the numbers of total alies    being afectd by your facets.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Zaret.1450]

id change facet of nature,  i mean the speed is not bad but on raid its not that good either, at least make it so the active is a power dmg dragon breath or a skill like the dragon rythlock launches on the cinematic

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

id change facet of nature,  i mean the speed is not bad but on raid its not that good either, at least make it so the active is a power dmg dragon breath or a skill like the dragon rythlock launches on the cinematic

if ut talking about the boonn duration herald f2 i completely agree with it, being power based based on numbers of active facets would help as well.

Or make it increase damage based on % the number of pips being used to share facets as passive and its activation would  be the dragon breath thingy.

Since Herald is about damage and still doing some "RevCare Assurance" to the team would help being suport and damage boost based on facets?  supporting alies.

But this would make it selfish tho.... :/

Edited January 21, 2022 by Aeolus.3615