Community exercise in matchups

[Shrapnel.7249]

With the hopes of helping newer players, and get the insight of veteran player I wanted to talk about positive and negative matchups. Which matchups are the ones to run from/stall and which are the ones you want to take. This type of information is incredibly useful, but not necessarily common knowledge. So let’s have a healthy discussion!

As an example: my understanding is you don’t want to fight a full shroud reaper as a fire weaver duelist. Even though I never really play either, this has been my observation. 
Feel free to chime in with any specific builds or counter play strategies. But let’s keep this helpful and healthy! 
Thanks!

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

The concept of roles is a relative and arbitrary construct. It’s a way for players to minimize…or rather globalize the capacity of ones build to fulfill different kinds of goals.
 

The system of roles is arbitrary in the sense that you could delineate yourself or to others any parameterization for a goal that you find valuable. It’s relative in the sense that whatever these parameters you created are you can relate them to other builds that do the same kinds of goals that you parameterized and this forms a kind of measuring stick to use against other players in a short amount of time.
 

in essence I can create for myself a build with a self parametrized role like: “decap 1v1er” and “team reviver.” I can then compare the abilities I have that make up the capacity to decap, to 1v1 and to team revive with other builds and from other classes and compare them and their relative effectiveness at being able to complete those goals.

 

When we talk about negative and positive matchups there really are no such thing due to the arbitrariness of that construction…rather we have comparisons of those constituents that perform a goal that the other can not do, and thus we do those goals rather then persue the ones the opponent can do.

 

if I am a decap 1v1 team reviver…then my counter matchup would be a player who is able to prevent decaps, win 1v1’s, and cleave out teammates. There’s an arbitrary but finite number of ways opponents can do these goal…so ideally you optimize your build to either avoid, or overcome these counter matchups.

 

A more realistic example: I play a hybrid(Power/Condi) Reaper, that is primarily a +1 roamer but has the capacity to 1v1, and to team fight. I can look at this build and I can thus compare it to other builds that do roughly the same things and I can ask myself these questions:

 

How proficient is it’s capacity to +1 against other builds and classes that can +1?

How proficient is its capacity to 1v1 against other builds and classes that can 1v1?

 

how proficient is its capacity to team fight against other classes that can team fight?

 

I can then look at all the different ways of comparing all those builds and classes…and come up with how to avoid, or deal with those obstacles. Many times some builds carry contradictory skills that inhibit their capability to fulfilling a goal…as an example: Being a glass cannon 1v1er…or being a healer/support with a damage amulet.

 

One could go on about all the different kinds of ways one can compare an arbitrary number of things…but the concept is what’s really important about it…that way you don’t have to remember someone’s laundry list of matchups…you merely just understand what it is and you can build up that information on the fly. 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Downstate.4697]

Choosing when to take a fight has a lot to do with team comp and whether or not it will be good to the team. Id rather stall a reaper in a 1v1 at far than allow them to rotate into a mid fight. There are too many variables but to dumb it down based on just 1v1s I can only speak from my own experience on ele. Anything that can cc and put out a lot of damage puts ele in a bad spot. Spellbreaker is a bad match up. Ranger is potentially a bad match up depending on their build and if you are running focus. All forms of necro is a bad match up. Ele is pretty good at stalling fights though if you use your skills effectively.

[RedAvenged.5217]

47 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Choosing when to take a fight has a lot to do with team comp and whether or not it will be good to the team. Id rather stall a reaper in a 1v1 at far than allow them to rotate into a mid fight. There are too many variables but to dumb it down based on just 1v1s I can only speak from my own experience on ele. Anything that can cc and put out a lot of damage puts ele in a bad spot. Spellbreaker is a bad match up. Ranger is potentially a bad match up depending on their build and if you are running focus. All forms of necro is a bad match up. Ele is pretty good at stalling fights though if you use your skills effectively.

The only bad match of for a fire weaver out of ranger and warrior is a decap ranger build.

idk where ppl are getting necro counters weaver from. You should be able to beat necro if you’re good, minionmancer is an op mess though in 1v1s and will be a pain though 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Shrapnel.7249 said:

With the hopes of helping newer players, and get the insight of veteran player I wanted to talk about positive and negative matchups. Which matchups are the ones to run from/stall and which are the ones you want to take. This type of information is incredibly useful, but not necessarily common knowledge. So let’s have a healthy discussion!

As an example: my understanding is you don’t want to fight a full shroud reaper as a fire weaver duelist. Even though I never really play either, this has been my observation. 
Feel free to chime in with any specific builds or counter play strategies. But let’s keep this helpful and healthy! 
Thanks!

This question is hilariously simple to answer:

1. Are you going to die if you stay? Yes? Leave.
2. Can you win? Yes? Then stay and win.

It's just all about knowing how the rock/paper/scissors of the current meta works and knowing the community's skill levels on their classes as well as your own. This is how you judge if you should stay or not, in both team fights and 1v1s. Oh and also, map awareness. Make sure you aren't about to get +'d when you decide to stay. Getting +'d generally means you better fallback to your team, unless you KNOW you can hold 1v2 long enough for your team to + you in return.

 

 

[Shrapnel.7249]

48 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

The concept of roles is a relative and arbitrary construct. It’s a way for players to minimize…or rather globalize the capacity of ones build to fulfill different kinds of goals.
 

The system of roles is arbitrary in the sense that you could delineate yourself or to others any parameterization for a goal that you find valuable. It’s relative in the sense that whatever these parameters you created are you can relate them to other builds that do the same kinds of goals that you parameterized and this forms a kind of measuring stick to use against other players in a short amount of time.
 

in essence I can create for myself a build with a self parametrized role like: “decap 1v1er” and “team reviver.” I can then compare the abilities I have that make up the capacity to decap, to 1v1 and to team revive with other builds and from other classes and compare them and their relative effectiveness at being able to complete those goals.

 

When we talk about negative and positive matchups there really are no such thing due to the arbitrariness of that construction…rather we have comparisons of those constituents that perform a goal that the other can not do, and thus we do those goals rather then persue the ones the opponent can do.

 

if I am a decap 1v1 team reviver…then my counter matchup would be a player who is able to prevent decaps, win 1v1’s, and cleave out teammates. There’s an arbitrary but finite number of ways opponents can do these goal…so ideally you optimize your build to either avoid, or overcome these counter matchups.

 

A more realistic example: I play a hybrid(Power/Condi) Reaper, that is primarily a +1 roamer but has the capacity to 1v1, and to team fight. I can look at this build and I can thus compare it to other builds that do roughly the same things and I can ask myself these questions:

 

How proficient is it’s capacity to +1 against other builds and classes that can +1?

How proficient is its capacity to 1v1 against other builds and classes that can 1v1?

 

how proficient is its capacity to team fight against other classes that can team fight?

 

I can then look at all the different ways of comparing all those builds and classes…and come up with how to avoid, or deal with those obstacles. Many times some builds carry contradictory skills that inhibit their capability to fulfilling a goal…as an example: Being a glass cannon 1v1er…or being a healer/support with mostly damage skills.

 

One could go on about all the different kinds of ways one can compare an arbitrary number of things…but the concept is what’s really important about it…that way you don’t have to remember someone’s laundry list of matchups…you merely just understand what it is and you can build up that information on the fly. 

 

These are excellent points. The idea of a “matchup” isn’t strictly set on one objective, but rather how the matchup is going to determine your best course of action, and thus the objective you will fulfill. I think that point is often lost. 
How your team is constructed will also impact how what you are playing gets the most value. However for the sake of conversation, let’s assume our comp is favorable so that you can play your role on whatever character you have in mind to it’s greatest extend. I know much of this is still situational, but there are still certain static matchups that are favorable vs unfavorable. Even if a situation needs to be fleshed out, let do it! The more educated people become at identifying these situations the better our community’s queues and games get. 

[Downstate.4697]

1 hour ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

The only bad match of for a fire weaver out of ranger and warrior is a decap ranger build.

idk where ppl are getting necro counters weaver from. You should be able to beat necro if you’re good, minionmancer is an op mess though in 1v1s and will be a pain though 

I was talking more of ele in general.  I rarely play fire weaver since i dont like it

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

7 hours ago, Shrapnel.7249 said:

These are excellent points. The idea of a “matchup” isn’t strictly set on one objective, but rather how the matchup is going to determine your best course of action, and thus the objective you will fulfill. I think that point is often lost. 
How your team is constructed will also impact how what you are playing gets the most value. However for the sake of conversation, let’s assume our comp is favorable so that you can play your role on whatever character you have in mind to it’s greatest extend. I know much of this is still situational, but there are still certain static matchups that are favorable vs unfavorable. Even if a situation needs to be fleshed out, let do it! The more educated people become at identifying these situations the better our community’s queues and games get. 

 

I'm a fundamentalist kind of person, that sees value in understanding fundamental principles, where those principles can then be applied to all situations no matter how nuanced they are...rather then detailing out an explicit list of you know...: "this is what this does to that," because there's no real understanding or explanation as to why "this does that" is the case so to speak. That's just who i am and how i go about my way of thinking about the game...but also the game is so nuanced that there's really no clear cut yes or no type answer to these kinds of things.

 

To put it another way:

 

If the build you are playing against has a lot of condition cleanse, and you are a condition build...you are in a bad matchup.

 

If the build you are playing against deals power damage, and your build features a lot of weakness, you are in a favorable matchup.

 

If the build you are playing against, deals both power damage and has a lot of condition cleansing, and you are a condition build that features a lot of weakness...you are in a more complicated matchup, where who has the advantage is not so clear...thus deciding to take on this fight becomes risky.

 

Specifically about Fire Weaver and Reaper: Fire Weaver is very much the same kind of thing as a reaper. Fire Weaver does damage with it's 3 pulsing abilities that inflict the burning condition...for the most part right. When these skills go off, the enemy simply needs to kite those abilities to prevent taking that much damage. A good reaper knows this and uses that to their advantage as as most reapers are very squishy and lack condition cleanse. Since they can knock out your way to kill effectively without burning a cleanse, they will Shroud Attack --> kite/build life force and ranged pressure when you got the pulses up --> Return to Shroud to finish you off.

 

The more aggressive reapers will pop spectral walk while in shroud to face-tank cleanse the burning pulses...not a safe thing to do for a reaper...but it's a play they can make.

 

Anyway...this is all boils down to what is mentioned above. Weavers main damage source is a kite-able ability, and a reaper is not really interested in controlling the node like a weaver is...so weavers here have something to lose and they don't...so when the Reaper enters Reaper Shroud, the weaver is supposed to kite them right... but because you want node control as part of that builds role...that's where a reaper can turn that into an advantage for themselves.

Edited December 10, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Morwath.9817]

9 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

The only bad match of for a fire weaver out of ranger and warrior is a decap ranger build.

idk where ppl are getting necro counters weaver from. You should be able to beat necro if you’re good, minionmancer is an op mess though in 1v1s and will be a pain though 

When you take on minionmancer, as Fire Weaver you burn down minions before Necromancer, requires a bit of kiting, but thats the way. About Ranger, well, you do pretty decent against core Ranger, as you've no problems with burning down his pet without even focusing much on it. Both of those matchups are quite bad for Lightning Rod.

  

9 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

This question is hilariously simple to answer:

1. Are you going to die if you stay? Yes? Leave.
2. Can you win? Yes? Then stay and win.

It's just all about knowing how the rock/paper/scissors of the current meta works and knowing the community's skill levels on their classes as well as your own. This is how you judge if you should stay or not, in both team fights and 1v1s. Oh and also, map awareness. Make sure you aren't about to get +'d when you decide to stay. Getting +'d generally means you better fallback to your team, unless you KNOW you can hold 1v2 long enough for your team to + you in return.

 

 

Note: Quite often its worth to even die in 1v2 situation (and create it) when your team can win 4v3 somewhere else, obviously as long as dying takes long enough for allies to secure victory in their own fight. Requires both kiting skills and non glass build.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Genesis.5169]

I take every match up i remember players, generally speaking its the player not the class that beats me. Not everyone is the same if you run away from bad match ups you miss the chance of beating a bad player.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

9 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

When you take on minionmancer, as Fire Weaver you burn down minions before Necromancer, requires a bit of kiting, but thats the way. About Ranger, well, you do pretty decent against core Ranger, as you've no problems with burning down his pet without even focusing much on it. Both of those matchups are quite bad for Lightning Rod.

  

Note: Quite often its worth to even die in 1v2 situation (and create it) when your team can win 4v3 somewhere else, obviously as long as dying takes long enough for allies to secure victory in their own fight. Requires both kiting skills and non glass build.

This used to be true. Lately though, mobility is too high, and any time your team becomes 4v5, it can very quickly result in snowball and loss of the entire map.

[RedAvenged.5217]

15 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Both of those matchups are quite bad for Lightning Rod.

  

Im not sure where this myth came from- I have 1v1d plat3+ lr weaver mains since cmc s debut and even when knights amulet was a thing, a very well played lr weaver was a nightmare for ranger.

 

my only guess can be that most lr weavers these days contain 3/4 a brain cell and the ezier to play build wins.

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Im not sure where this myth came from- I have 1v1d plat3+ lr weaver mains since cmc s debut and even when knights amulet was a thing, a very well played lr weaver was a nightmare for ranger.

 

my only guess can be that most lr weavers these days contain 3/4 a brain cell and the ezier to play build wins.

as someone that played a lot of sic em slb, LR weaver is hard as kitten, lb is useless, and GS is easy to kite.
and perma weakness makes any landed hit a 50/50 to do anything.
Its a fun fight but a losing fight IMO 
P.S I mean good weavers, not shitters that only do 1 combo and then die.

[Morwath.9817]

8 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

as someone that played a lot of sic em slb, LR weaver is hard as kitten, lb is useless, and GS is easy to kite.
and perma weakness makes any landed hit a 50/50 to do anything.
Its a fun fight but a losing fight IMO 
P.S I mean good weavers, not shitters that only do 1 combo and then die.

When I say Ranger, I mean everyones favourite core "tail swipe" Ranger 😉

 

10 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Im not sure where this myth came from- I have 1v1d plat3+ lr weaver mains since cmc s debut and even when knights amulet was a thing, a very well played lr weaver was a nightmare for ranger.

 

my only guess can be that most lr weavers these days contain 3/4 a brain cell and the ezier to play build wins.

 

No offense, but I'd take Blamthrax opinion on Weaver matchups rather than "when I played Ranger I had troubles with LR Weavers". 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[RedAvenged.5217]

6 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

When I say Ranger, I mean everyones favourite core "tail swipe" Ranger 😉

 

 

No offense, but I'd take Blamthrax opinion on Weaver matchups rather than "when I played Ranger I had troubles with LR Weavers". 

 

your source is a new player that’s always been ehh.
 

I’ll stick with real time test from former pro league players and people that can ezily solo to plat3-legend just by playing for fun

[Shrapnel.7249]

Ele seems to be quite polarizing, so let’s move on. What are the kind of matchups, playing as a Holosmith, you’d want to avoid? Generally condis can be a bit difficult to manage, but what about power builds?