Why is minstrels gear still in the game?

[Shiyo.3578]

ZERO offensive stats gear has no place in GW2 and goes against it's entire design and combat system. 

It has no use in PvE and currently just ruins WvW. You've deleted every tanky amulet from SPvP for a reason.

WvW zergs are just 99% minstrel supports with like 3 dps and it's extremely unfun to fight  AND play as.

Fix your game, delete minstrels and other pure defensive stat types like it.

[Voltekka.2375]

Meanwhile, it is the permaboons that make blobs unkillable, but...

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Because dedicated supports are a backbone of any RvR game, and always will be. The whole reason to play WvW is so that you get interesting group compositions instead of just DPS #1-4 and HealDPS #5.

 

And Minstrels is used in PvE, just not in time-limited content with DPS checks.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

What is needed is more AoE anti boon hate. The warrior forum was discussing adding the debuff from WoD to certain traits and skills so that there can be more boon denial, that is one way to do it. Beyond that they'd need to raise damage in WvW.

[God.2708]

Zerg has 3 DPS and can kill anything in the game...

But they are unkillable...

I see this logic going two ways. One, this means that zerg fights last forever and never end because everyones caught on to this secret to immortality. Two, you can't find two friends to play DPS and kill zergs with.

Based on the fights I witnessed last night, it wasn't the former.

 

[Shiyo.3578]

1 hour ago, Voltekka.2375 said:

Meanwhile, it is the permaboons that make blobs unkillable, but...

Yes, and minstrels gives boon duration.

 

1 hour ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Because dedicated supports are a backbone of any RvR game, and always will be

There is absolutely NOTHING interesting or interactive about blobs with super speed and 20 stacks of stability running at you while being spam healed and having perma reflects up. if this is "backbone of any RvR game" then there's a reason Crowfall died before even releasing, it's trash gameplay.

  

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

What is needed is more AoE anti boon hate. The warrior forum was discussing adding the debuff from WoD to certain traits and skills so that there can be more boon denial, that is one way to do it. Beyond that they'd need to raise damage in WvW.

This would help as well, but I still think minstrels and ZERO offensive stat gear has no place in this game.  Boons are completely out of control in WvW.

  

19 minutes ago, God.2708 said:

Zerg has 3 DPS and can kill anything in the game...

But they are unkillable...

I see this logic going two ways. One, this means that zerg fights last forever and never end because everyones caught on to this secret to immortality. Two, you can't find two friends to play DPS and kill zergs with.

Based on the fights I witnessed last night, it wasn't the former.

 

Whoever has the better boon stacking comp INSTANTLY(I mean INSTANTLY) wins any engagement. It's not interactive, it's not interesting, and frankly, I wouldn't even call it "gameplay". It's just a stampede rolling over you. There is no strategy to beating it besides being a better and bigger min/maxed boon blob. 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Shiyo.3578

[God.2708]

5 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Whoever has the better boon stacking comp INSTANTLY(I mean INSTANTLY) wins any engagement. It's not interactive, it's not interesting, and frankly, I wouldn't even call it "gameplay". It's just a stampede rolling over you. There is no strategy to beating it besides being a better and bigger min/maxed boon blob. 

As opposed to? What are you even proposing as the alternative here?

The group with the better ping so they can dodge sooner? The group with more 1.2k range spells so they can kill the enemy first?

You have -literally- just said 'The group that is better wins' except the way people are winning isn't a way you like, I guess. Why don't you like it? It apparently isn't very strategic, or it is to easy, or something along those lines. But I don't buy that you have a very good case for that because big stacking groups have been rolling over everyone else at every iteration point of the game. That's just what having more people and being more organized does. I dare call being organized strategy, but that would probably make some people angry.

[subversiontwo.7501]

4 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

ZERO offensive stats gear has no place in GW2 and goes against it's entire design and combat system. 

It has no use in PvE and currently just ruins WvW. You've deleted every tanky amulet from SPvP for a reason.

WvW zergs are just 99% minstrel supports with like 3 dps and it's extremely unfun to fight  AND play as.

Fix your game, delete minstrels and other pure defensive stat types like it.

WvW has stats that sPvP lack because the scale is larger and the output more volatile as a result. In WvW you have the option to bring more friends, the cap isn't 5, it is around 75. Between 1 and 75 it is up to you to choose what scale you want to play at but the developer is going to balance the mode for that span, not to your whim.

If you look at the composition history of WvW you'd learn that the norm in vanilla same as now has to a crushing majority been to comp two support roles for three damage roles. I think this is another case where you simply don't know or understand how group composition works. Like so many other people who have opinions overlooking facts it is hard to talk to you or take you seriously.

[Shiyo.3578]

11 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

WvW has stats that sPvP lack because the scale is larger and the output more volatile as a result. In WvW you have the option to bring more friends, the cap isn't 5, it is around 75. Between 1 and 75 it is up to you to choose what scale you want to play at but the developer is going to balance the mode for that span, not to your whim.

If you look at the composition history of WvW you'd learn that the norm in vanilla same as now has to a crushing majority been to comp two support roles for three damage roles. I think this is another case where you simply don't know or understand how group composition works. Like so many other people who have opinions overlooking facts it is hard to talk to you or take you seriously.

I've been playing since Vanilla. You couldn't give AOE super speed, barrier didn't exist, condi cleanse wasn't as potent, and meteor storm didn't tickle you. Minstrels also didn't exist, pure support elites didn't exist, etc.

Insult me all you want, the gameplay of ZVZ is one of the worst PvP  gameplay experiences I've ever seen in a video game.

[subversiontwo.7501]

8 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

I've been playing since Vanilla. You couldn't give AOE super speed, barrier didn't exist, condi cleanse wasn't as potent, and meteor storm didn't tickle you. Minstrels also didn't exist, pure support elites didn't exist, etc.

Insult me all you want, the gameplay of ZVZ is one of the worst PvP  gameplay experiences I've ever seen in a video game.

I'm not insulting you, I'm pointing out that you are trying to argue about something that is in your head and not in the game. For example, you claim to have played since vanilla and that there were no pure defensive stats or support builds but you don't seem to remember that Nomad's was released in vanilla or that there were Cleric builds around that (while having a minor power component) was generally played as pure support. What you are stating is simply wrong. It isn't an insult to point that out.

Edited December 11, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[Shiyo.3578]

39 minutes ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I'm not insulting you, I'm pointing out that you are trying to argue about something that is in your head and not in the game. For example, you claim to have played since vanilla and that there were no pure defensive stats or support builds but you don't seem to remember that Nomad's was released in vanilla or that there were Cleric builds around that (while having a minor power component) was generally played as pure support. What you are stating is simply wrong. It isn't an insult to point that out.

Clerics has power, nomad's is stupid but it wasn't an issue because you could barely heal other people during vanilla.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Shiyo.3578

[SCVwar.3784]

1 hour ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Clerics has power, nomad's is stupid but it wasn't an issue because you could barely heal other people during vanilla.

But you could still provide boons, AOE support for sustains in vanilla. Enough healing from using finishers (mostly blast finishers) inside water fields.
 

2 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I'm not insulting you, I'm pointing out that you are trying to argue about something that is in your head and not in the game. 

@Shiyo.3578

This sums up pretty much what I would like to point out here as well.
I did enjoy simpler WVW, not too crazy with abilities that creates power creep. But even back then it was not as balanced as you might recall. It was heavily melee oriented zerg fights with hammer and GS cleaving everything to death, with one stack of stability giving full immunity against any form of CC.
Vanilla had problems just like current version of WVW, just more transparent.

Perfect WVW balance is nearly impossible, it's only possible in one's dream.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

99% minstrel support zergs, okay bro

 

a normal blob comp has 66% supports, zergs and guildgroups may run even less. u know, somethings gotta do damage also.

[Voltekka.2375]

11 hours ago, God.2708 said:

As opposed to? What are you even proposing as the alternative here?

The group with the better ping so they can dodge sooner? The group with more 1.2k range spells so they can kill the enemy first?

You have -literally- just said 'The group that is better wins' except the way people are winning isn't a way you like, I guess. Why don't you like it? It apparently isn't very strategic, or it is to easy, or something along those lines. But I don't buy that you have a very good case for that because big stacking groups have been rolling over everyone else at every iteration point of the game. That's just what having more people and being more organized does. I dare call being organized strategy, but that would probably make some people angry.

Nuh-uh. Minstrel wins fights. I minstrel my way through everything.

 

*Insane bard solo playing*

[Rakan Buuyon.8576]

11 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

There is absolutely NOTHING interesting or interactive about blobs with super speed and 20 stacks of stability running at you while being spam healed and having perma reflects up. if this is "backbone of any RvR game" then there's a reason Crowfall died before even releasing, it's trash gameplay.

Yes, that's why Crowfall died. Not because the millions of failures the developers made with that game. But because of support classes. Because there clearly never RvR games before Crowfall, and they certainly didn't have dedicated support classes. WvW definitely wasn't inspired by them either, no matter what the devs say.

 

In your head, WvW is something that it isn't. It's not just a roamers paradise. It's not just randos getting together in a big CF and having at it. The games that started this type of MMO, where created around comped play, just like GW2. You aren't losing to minstrels, you are losing to comped groups. If minstrels was removed from the game nothing would change. Minstrels isn't why these groups win, being comped and good at the game is why they win.

[Toast.6459]

I'm gonna be honest, sounds like someone's mostly unorganized group got blobbed over and they're upset

[Shroud.2307]

11 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

I've been playing since Vanilla. You couldn't give AOE super speed, barrier didn't exist, condi cleanse wasn't as potent, and meteor storm didn't tickle you. Minstrels also didn't exist, pure support elites didn't exist, etc.

Insult me all you want, the gameplay of ZVZ is one of the worst PvP  gameplay experiences I've ever seen in a video game.

Rose tinted glasses. Pre-expacs was not a haven of perfect balance.

Let me refresh your memory.

Ghost Thieves.
You think Deadeyes are bad? Who remembers when you could get 2 minutes of Stealth? And when you could kill people without ever revealing yourself because Traps didn't reveal you.

Swiftness and Superspeed affected leap distance.
You ever try to catch a Daredevil in Nomads? Sword Warrior getting boosted leap distances was worse.

Epidemic.
Who remembers one shotting people by using this on Tower/Keep/SMC Lords? I sure do.

Stability.
This Boon used to stack duration instead of intensity. That means while this was active it was literally a immune to every CC until the Boon ends, is ripped, or Corrupted. Applying a CC(s) did not remove this Boon. Bulldozing zergs was as brain dead then as it is now.

Ranger pets ignoring physics.
They actually still do this in some places, but I'm talking about when you could literally send them up walls to attack. I have fond memories of my Jaguar stealth one shotting people on AC's.

Applied Strength.
Killing NPC's gave a stacking stat boost similar to Sigil of Bloodlust, Corruption, etc. But you could have both at the same time... And Might...

I can keep going.
Balance has both improved and regressed. Some things are better, some things are worse. The point is that the past isn't as pleasant as you remember it.

As for Minstrel,
I don't think many people disagree that it is a busted stat. But you know what? There are a lot of those in WvW, and disabling one would mean others would need to be as well (because if they weren't people would complain until they were). Personally, I think the more diversity the better, and people should want to keep options open rather than limiting them.
And 10 - 15k Meteors do not tickle. Just because full support builds can shrug it off doesn't mean it doesn't hurt anyone. The skill is still hugely powerful.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

bring back 50 man water field blasts

[nativity.3057]

 

15 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Vanilla

 

3 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Daredevil

 

Come on now.

 

The game now is much faster and different from before. In large part due to the expansions. 

 

The biggest change on your list imo would be the Stability changes. Probably still debatable if this change should've been implemented. But it's been a long time since the change that I can't remember the difference. 

 

Also, weren't the stability changes during HoT?

Edited December 12, 2021 by nativity.3057

[Littlekenny.4196]

3 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Stability.
This Boon used to stack duration instead of intensity. That means while this was active it was literally a immune to every CC until the Boon ends, is ripped, or Corrupted. Applying a CC(s) did not remove this Boon. Bulldozing zergs was as brain dead then as it is now.

This was not a bad thing at all. The removal of this was the death of proper zerg busting (15-20vs50+) because 15 guard lines and 5 static fields made the zergs able to brainlessly bulldoze. It also made way for the pirateshit which was being toyed around with just before this change.

 

I still look at pre HoT as the best and most skill based meta but for me this current meta is the only one since that has been good enough for me to play again although it feels like a different game now.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Littlekenny.4196

[Littlekenny.4196]

24 minutes ago, nativity.3057 said:

 

 

 

Come on now.

 

The game now is much faster and different from before. In large part due to the expansions. 

 

The biggest change on your list imo would be the Stability changes. Probably still debatable if this change should've been implemented. But it's been a long time since the change that I can't remember the difference. 

 

Also, weren't the stability changes during HoT?

The stability difference was that before if you got hit by cc, either you or a guardian made a mistake unless you got single target corrupted. (Dodge out of wells and emergency stab a null)

 

Change was 16/3/2015

HoT was 23/10/2015

Edited December 12, 2021 by Littlekenny.4196

[Shroud.2307]

1 hour ago, nativity.3057 said:

 

 

 

Come on now.

 

The game now is much faster and different from before. In large part due to the expansions. 

 

The biggest change on your list imo would be the Stability changes. Probably still debatable if this change should've been implemented. But it's been a long time since the change that I can't remember the difference. 

 

Also, weren't the stability changes during HoT?

I'm only going to correct you where you misunderstood.
I didn't say Daredevil was in vanilla, I was comparing Warrior to it because a full defense built Daredevil is the hardest thing to catch, and once upon a time Warrior was worse.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

55 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

I'm only going to correct you where you misunderstood.
I didn't say Daredevil was in vanilla, I was comparing Warrior to it because a full defense built Daredevil is the hardest thing to catch, and once upon a time Warrior was worse.

I'm pretty sure, both of nike warrior and daredevil were pain in kitten to deal with, but atleast war couldn't just stealth away from all the attention.
Though, there's still a lot of these "funny kid builds" that work in very similar manner "tag keep and chase me" mentality, many if not all have some sort of access to stealth I wonder why.

[Shiyo.3578]

23 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Because dedicated supports are a backbone of any RvR game, and always will be.

Actually there's no such thing as boonballs in DAoC, Warhammer or Crowfall. It's a GW2 only thing.

Most RvR games are about 8 man groups beating entire zergs with 8 man mass CC groups.

This game has no zerg busters. It's why it's combat is trash.

[koxsos.6258]

I wanted minstrel back in early HoT to be the great support healing druid or rev.

I agree that enrage timers offer very little flexibility in raids.

I agree that post-nerf/change war bubble stillness is not what it used to be. Before you could chase them with it for a bit. Now everyone rolls out and is at 20 stability again, but it remains true that everyone failing to do that ends up CCed and promptly dead so it still remains a valuable inclusion which I main.

Don't see how switching from minstrel to commander changes the zerg meta drastically though.

Zergs are sort of lazy way to success in WvW making it also most efficient is somewhat sad.

Removing stability again will lead to stunbreak Vs CC heavy comps which I am uncertain to be an improvement.